Talk:Anna May Wong/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Confusion

I'm confused... shouldn't this be: "The only leading Asian man in the silent era was Sessue Hayakawa, in no small part because white actors would usually play in yellowface even if all of the characters in the movie were Asian." Would that be considered original research? It doesn't have to be bolded in the text, but it seems like a pretty strange oversight to make. 129.119.164.75 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 03:11, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I was more concerned with the implication that Hayakawa was the only Asian leading man in silent cinema, period. This implies there was no silent cinema in Asia, which is quite false-- Japan, Korea and China all had healthy silent film industries, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if other Asian countries didn't also. I tried to address that, and also took out the POV/OR-ish "so white actors..." and made it into two sentences as plain statements of fact-- 1) Hayakawa was the only Asian leading man in the U.S., and 2) white actors usually played Asian roles-- without implying any cause/effect. Hope that addresses the concern. Dekkappai (talk) 05:50, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I think this personally seems like overkill. Hayakawa was the only Asian leading man (much like Anna was the only leading Asian woman) out of English/US cinema. I mean obviously the the Asian and US silent film industries were way separate. US films were screened in Asia (Mary Pickford was known there) but Asian films were not usually screened in the US, as the obvious racial issues there.

For both male and female Im sure there were others in US cinema but they werent very well known. Example would Tsori Aoki, Hayakawa's Japanese wife. --Thegingerone (talk) 12:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, as someone with a strong interest in Asian cinema, I think pointing out "U.S. cinema" is completely appropriate. There were healthy cinema industries in Asia, after all, and they did have their stars. I know it's not unusual for U.S.-English writers to pretend we're the only industry on earth (Titles like "History of Cinema" "Films of the 1990s"... usually leaving out the important information that they only cover U.S. films...) but Wikipedia is for an international community, and should not be so myopic. That's my view anyway-- any other thoughts? Dekkappai (talk) 13:11, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I personally am not pretending anything, in fact I like Ozu. However the history of global film represents what I said (in essence we're saying the same thing) US film is usually from the US...and very rarely in its history does it import anything, especially from Asia. Not saying it NEVER has (Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon? Im not good with talkies :p) just it rarely does. Especially because in the early earlllly days of film the US was one of the first and one of the only. Of course that changed, but with the star system and what not they did keep a bit of a monopoly.

Back to my point. Given the context of this particular article I find it overkill. Because Anna May was in the same boat. It is made quite clear that we throughout the article are talking of her struggles in the US cinema, and her ventures into European cinema. In the part about Hayakawa it is speaking of her difficulties in the US film market. So in the US film market her only other leading man could be Sessue Hayakawa. Yes one can be more specific, but it seems extremely PC to me given that. Or better wording is needed all together maybe.--Thegingerone (talk) 23:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Well I don't think it's PC at all, it's just specific. I don't understand how it harms the article in any way, and its removal makes the article less objective, less accurate and more provincial. Maybe someone else can offer input. Dekkappai (talk) 23:16, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, there's nothing wrong with being specific here, particularly since Sessue Hayakawa apparently acted in Japanese films. The question we have to ask is "Do we expect the majority of readers to understand that given the context that specific sentence is referring to US films only?". IMHO it's difficult to say so it's better to be specific. Note that this is quite different from when an article is e.g. about the US/Australia/Hong Kong and we can presume that the reader understands $ refers to US/Australian/Hong Kong dollars (for starters, can we be sure the majority of readers will be aware there was a film industry in Asia at the time?). Nil Einne (talk) 08:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Changes since FA status

There have been a few changes made to the article since it has made FA status, not all to the good, I think. First: Her Chinese name in the lead. That was discussed, and input obtained from China-specialist editors, who said it was not necessary, since the Chinese is given in the infobox, and Wong was of American birth and American/European in career. Second: The "Popular culture" section. These sections are, at best, random collections of trivia. If the factoid is important enough-- and sourced, it should be integrated into the body of the article-- probably in the "Legacy" section. I see nothing important enough in the section currently to include in an encyclopedic article on Anna May Wong. The trivial mention in a (notable) Broadway song is also, with regards to the life of Anna May Wong, trivia, I believe, and not worth including in a biography. Not insiginificantly, the cited source does not even back up the mention of Wong in the lyric. If the article were to undergo FA review today, certainly this would be one of the first things to be thrown out. But since other editors have expressed the opinion that this mention in the lyric is worth including, I will hold off removing it. Since this is, after all, a Featured Article, and since these other bits of trivia are unsourced, I'll remove them now. I'll wait for input from other concerned editors before removing the other additions. Dekkappai (talk) 23:34, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Nice to see you around Dekk! I actually removed that (remaining) piece of trivia myself when it first appeared in the Legacy section. The show and song may be notable, but IMHO just the mention of Wong's name isn't, so I wouldn't be sorry to see it go. --Red Sunset 19:20, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Red. Right-- I don't think it belongs here, but would be perfectly fine at an article on the song, if not the musical-- though currently it is not even properly sourced. I think it was Bzuk who expressed preference for keeping it, and, since he was involved in the development of the article into FA status, I'll hold off for a week or so until we get some input from him. About the Chinese in the first sentence-- not only is it inappropriate and redundant, I think, it is also sloppily done. The bolding is unnecessarily intrusive, and the pinyin not necessary at all since she (at least publicly, and in biographies) did not use it, and it's already in the infobox. But again, I'll hold off for a week or so for input. Dekkappai (talk) 19:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

On second thought... Bzuk hasn't edited since October, so input from him doesn't seem to be coming soon. I'll go ahead and remove it. If he disagrees, he can squawk when he's back. :) Dekkappai (talk) 01:48, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

BBC Radio 4 programme

On Anna May Wong has just been broadcast, half an hour long, lots of clips and quotes. Here are the details - "A Celestial Star in Picadilly: Anna Chen presents a tribute to Hollywood's first Chinese-American movie star, Anna May Wong, star of the classic 1929 silent movie Piccadilly. Filmed in London, it made her a celebrity in Britain in the 1930s. Despite her talent, Wong struggled against racial prejudice throughout her career, and was banned from even kissing her leading men. However, her reputation is now enjoying a revival thanks to the restoration and re-release of Piccadilly." Sadly it's not available yet on the Listen Again facility on the website: [1]. 82.32.238.139 (talk) 12:05, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

anime

notice how her given and middle name sounds like japanese ANIME? that's cool, very cool. too bad she isn't japanese though, it would work even better ; - ) 24.129.235.8 (talk) 05:00, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Danger Man

Apparently there was another actress named Anna May Wong in the late '50s, early '60s. More than one source mentions an Anna May Wong in an Anthony Quinn film of this era, pointing out that she is not this Anna May Wong. And more than one source mis-identifies the actress as this Anna May Wong... Right now, we have a "reliable source" (the Parish chapter) saying she was in Danger Man and an anon editor saying she wasn't... I see on the Internet HERE-- what appears to be a fan/review site-- which says the Danger Man Anna May is not this one... tv.com says it is her. I suspect the anon editor and the fan site may be right, so I'll do some investigating today and see if I can find a good source that says so. Otherwise, I suppose, we have to go with "Verifiability"-- good sources which give an incorrect piece of information-- over "Truth"-- weak sourcing which may point out correct information. Or, alternatively, we could just leave mention of it out of the article. Dekkappai (talk) 16:33, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to comment it out pending verification, and then delete or reinstate accordingly. --Red Sunset 19:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Good idea, will do. In the meantime-- I know the entire Danger Man series is out on DVD... If that set has any kind of a booklet which identifies cast members, it might mention this problem, and would, I think, be a "reliable source". Also, if there is a book on the series it might help (I can't locate one in my sources right now). Dekkappai (talk) 19:38, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

OK-- Problem solved, I think. Chan makes numerous references to the Danger Man appearance. Hodges specifically mentions the "other" Anna May Wong-- and actress named Marie Yang, who did appear in the Anthony Quinn film, and a British production using Wong's name-- yet he mentions Wong (our Wong) as appearing in Danger Man. What really convinces me, though, is that Hodges paraphrases an announcement from Wong herself, about her appearance in the show. Dekkappai (talk) 21:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

That last Hodges comment seems pretty conclusive – it would be interesting to view the episode in question. --Red Sunset 19:33, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Right... There is still room for error in the sourcing, but all the best sources still say it's her... If I ever have access to the DVD, I'll check it out, just to be sure. I suppose a citation to the actual episode/cast listing would trump "reliable sources" which are in error... Dekkappai (talk) 19:37, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's a clip of that Danger Man episode. She appears at about 1:35. I don't know if it's her or not, but I'm just putting it out there. Cheers --Sloths (talk) 19:13, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Early Career - No Peter Pan?

It's a bit surprising that no mention is made of Anna May Wong's portrayal of Tiger Lily, the Princess of the Indians, in the 1924 version of "Peter Pan." Not only was it a notable role, but it adds an interesting twist to Ms. Wong's frustrations about Asians not being cast as Asians, and further illustrates the challenges of ethnicity in film.

That said, this is a great article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.18.145 (talk) 16:07, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

As one who helped put this article together, thanks 67.171.18.145. I don't remember why Peter Pan was not mentioned in the article. But as you can see from the little rant at the top of this talk page, some were complaining the article was too long... without even resorting to ridiculous comparisons... Books have been written on her life, but we had to boil it down to one article... Dekkappai (talk) 03:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Date of death

Is it 2 February or 3 February 1961?

• Most of the interlang articles seem to favour 2 Feb.
• Google is roughly evenly divided.
• We have a foot in both camps, the worst sin of all: the lede and the text say 3 Feb, but the infobox says 2 Feb.

So, what's the right date and why? And which ever one it is, why do so many sources prefer the other date? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 13:19, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Why change your wife?

IMDB and Wikipedia both dont list it but I was wondering what others thought. I seen "Why change your wife?" (1920 Cecil B DeMille pic) tonight and I swear in the fashion house scene where Thomas Meighan goes to buy lingerie for his wife the Chinese servant in the background is Anna. Whoever she was she was on screen for all of 2 minutes and just that scene, but it looked just like her. Anyone else have any info on this?--Maggiedane (talk) 06:24, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

• Not credited according to the IMDB page. --68.81.70.65 (talk) 10:57, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

However, she has several uncredited roles dating from that exact period. Since very few Asians were employed on screen with any frequency, the likelihood tht this is another uncredited role is high -- however, original research doesn't qualify this for inclusion. A reliable source is needed. The curious can find the scene here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz2QHynswYA at time signature 8:25 Bustter (talk) 02:05, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

racism

The article carefully avoids to point out that Anna May Wong was a victim of WASP racism - that is cowardy and dishonest. Bernard Reiser, Germany — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.127.5.247 (talk) 10:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'll bite. The article makes numerous mentions of her struggles with prejudice, the Code, anti-miscegenation laws, etc. As a matter of fact, as principle author of the article, I had to consciously struggle to keep from making it a PC rant against American hypocrisy and intolerance... now, please explain to us how much better minorities were treated in Germany during the '30s and '40s... I'm sure I won't be alone in enjoying this... Dekkappai Lives (talk) 23:43, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

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Children

This article lists three children who purportedly survived Wong. Is there a source to indicate that these people existed? Wong was famously unmarried. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:40B:201:E130:65E4:A9F5:8C44:9A2C (talk) 21:56, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

I just deleted that sentence. The editor who added it seems to have gone a bit of a spree of adding unsourced family information to various celeb articles, and it's not entirely clear the intention was to add accurate information.

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Conflicting death information

At the top of the article it states that Ms Wong died of cirrhosis of the liver, but in the death section it says heart attack and does not mention cirrhosis at all. If the two were related, it would make sense to mention that in the death section, no? 2601:401:1:18AB:A0FC:EC1D:77C7:BE25 (talk) 17:20, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

family?

Since there's no mention of a husband or children, I assume Wong had neither? Elsquared (talk) 01:47, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Far Too Long For Such A Subject

Approximate word count for Wikipedia article on the philosopher G.W.F. Hegel (selected purely at random): 6,571.

Approximate word count for Wikipedia article on actress Anna May Wong: 6,115.

This is pathetic, the sort of thing that will forever keep Wikipedia, if not a laughingstock, then severely lacking in credibility--unless, of course, the aim is to make Wikipedia the in-depth pop culture resource of choice. If so, then by all means, let's have more 6,000-plus word articles on minor Hollywood figures. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pernoctus (talk • contribs) 02:47, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia, the encyclopedia anyone can edit or bitch about. So what's keeping you from writing about Hegel? You want to tear this article down because others are in poor shape? Get off your ass or stop complaining. Dekkappai (talk) 03:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

The only Asian American to merit star billing in a feature film for many decades, the first Asian to star in a television series, however short-lived, doesn't need some effete Hegelian to attack her fifty years after her death, when we see that Asian-Americans are still hard-pressed to see anyone on screen who reflects their racial characteristics. Bustter (talk) 01:42, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

As an Asian-American, I am pretty mad to see this message. Ueutyi (talk) 03:02, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I think the issue is that you are far too self-important to understand why Anna May Wong is much more important than you are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.253.223.193 (talk) 20:37, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Truth hurts, doesn't it Dekkappai. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.89.181 (talk) 05:49, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

ironic

Pretty ironic that a woman who complained of being typecast OR not selected for movies b/c of her race was an "inseparable friend" of Leni Riefenstahl. LOL. Sure you want to emphasize that? Sure it's true? You write about it like that's a compliment to Ms. Wong. I came here just b/c of the Google cartoon about her to learn a little more. Well, I did indeed learn a little more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.89.181 (talk) 05:57, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Romance largely known of at the time

In the section "stardom" it says that the affair with Tod Browning was "largely known of at the time: it was an interracial relationship and Wong was underage". Shouldn't it be "unknown of" at the time? Tweisbach (talk) 05:30, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Need the book to verify that one. The paragraph has other problems. It starts "at age of 19" and "1924". She was 19 and then says "around this time". 19 is not underage. Age of consent was 16 back then. This paragraph needs reworked. 214.3.138.230 (talk) 14:18, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

What children?

RE "family ?" section above. No mention of husbands or kids yet the photo of her grave marker says "out beloved mother".  ???? What kids? Article mentions none. There is virtually nothing on her personal life. This is a glaring error.214.3.138.230 (talk) 14:07, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

The grave marker is her mother's grave. She was interred with her mother in the same grave. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 15:16, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Not clear at all from the caption, it should be clarified. 214.3.138.230 (talk) 18:38, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2020

Grave of Anne Lee Wong’s mother --> Grave of Anna May Wong’s mother 77.4.120.125 (talk) 17:10, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

 Partly done: I put the caption back to what it was, stating that it's Anna May Wong's grave. Changes to that should be discussed on the talk page. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 18:01, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

The caption doesn't match the marker, so it's very confusing. 214.3.138.230 (talk) 18:39, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

I've fixed it. The grave originally contained her mother. She and her sister were buried with the mother upon their deaths. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 18:47, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2020

Please correct the 'aka' for "Schmutziges Geld" to reflect the actual translation, which is 'Dirty Money'. 129.176.151.15 (talk) 18:09, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. Movie titles are often different in different languages and don't directly translate. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 19:39, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Personal life

I agree with those who say there is a dearth of info on Wong's personal life. I found one source I would not consider reliable that says this: "Her personal life was just as tumultuous as her screen career. At 17, she had an affair with the director Tod Browning who was not only older but married as well. Most of her relationships were with white men, which Anna May kept out of the public eye. An interracial relationship would have ended her career. She was openly admitted in interviews that she would most likely never marry, claiming that Chinese and Chinese-American men found her too independent. Her sister, Mary Wong, who had also pursued a career in film, committed suicide. Suffering on and off from depression, Anna began to drink and smoke heavily, which over the years began to take its toll on her health. Still she forged on with her career, receiving a start on the Hollywood Walk of Fame in 1960. She was just about to start shooting Flower Drum Song in 1961, when she died suddenly of a heart attack during her sleep. She was only 56." If a reliable source is we could add the bits of info this has. I see this has her 2 years younger than the article has her when she was involved with Browning.

This has a lot of info on her and seems reliable: https://www.writtenchinese.com/life-times-anna-may-wong/ It has several solid references at the end. Seven Pandas (talk) 22:27, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Further Reading: Amanda Lee Koe's "Delayed Rays of a Star"

For further reading, please see the 2019 book by Singaporean writer Amanda Lee Koe, "Delayed Rays of a Star", out on Doubleday, which directly tracks the life of Anna May Wong alongside two other women of the era, Marlene Dietrich and Leni Riefenstahl. High praise from NPR and Publishers Weekly. It has it's own wiki for better sourcing: https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Amanda_Lee_Koe#Delayed_Rays_of_a_Star — Preceding unsigned comment added by Postnumbra (talk • contribs) 23:39, 22 January 2020 (UTC)