Talk:Amy Gardner

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This article needs further cleanup from it's previous state, but I've given it a real quick try in ten minutes to help weed it out. I cleaned the most egregious factual errors and trimmed much of the background information about the show and Ms. Parker.

It is my opinion that Josh and Amy were not dating in the end of S4, but rather started up again in the wake of Zoey's kidnapping; I've left that in until a consensus can be informally reached.

The article, ideally, should conform to the other character bios in the Category:The West Wing characters section, where it should eventually be moved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.143.248 (talk • contribs) 10:12, 1 March 2005 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 20:42, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that The West Wing's Amy Gardner was created for Mary-Louise Parker when she told the show's creator that "Josh Lyman badly needs to get laid"?
  • ALT0a: ... that The West Wing's Amy Gardner was created after her portrayer told the show's creator that "Josh Lyman badly needs to get laid, and I'm the one to do it"?
  • ALT1: ... that The West Wing's Amy Gardner is said to be the only character with "a genuinely militant attitude towards equality of the genders"?
  • Reviewed: Grannies Gone Wild

Moved to mainspace by Theleekycauldron (talk). Self-nominated at 07:35, 13 April 2022 (UTC).

• The article is new enough, long enough, referenced, neutral and no copyvio obvious. AGF for a few books that are offline. The hook are interesting and have sources provided in the article. The image in the article is free. QPQ done. Corachow (talk) 22:20, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Amy Gardner/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sammielh (talk · contribs) 19:13, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

This is my first GA review so apologies in advance if I make any mistakes. I'm a big fan of The West Wing so I'm excited to take a look at this. I've included suggestions for rewording in green below.

Lead and Infobox

• Link Josh Lyman and Donna Moss in the lead
• "Created in the show's third season"
• Is there a reason that you haven't included her last appearance in the infobox?
  • Couldn't find a decent secondary source for it; there was a lot of coverage for her re-appearance in "Requiem", but she also appears in "The Last Hurrah". I didn't want to go primary source-hunting through aggregation sites. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:15, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
    • No worries, just thought I would check! Sammielh (talk) 18:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
• Per WP:INFOBOXREF, the reference to Heisler for her first appearance shouldn't be necessary as it is cited in the text
  • All else done!

Creation

• Josh Lyman should be cited on the first instance rather than the second
• "Her first appearance was in the next episode, 2001's "The Women of Qumar" I'm assuming there's no information available about when she left the voicemail as this seems like a very quick turnaround
• "a character in The American President, was the forerunner for Amy"
• "some kind of relationship" is verbatim from the source, I would recommend rewording
• "Amy's romance with fellow character Josh Lyman" This seems unnecessary as no other character is referred to similarly
• "Bradley Whitford, who played Josh, told The Washington Post in 2006 that he personally would have preferred that his character end up in a relationship with Amy. Parker, on the other hand, thought that her character's arc became "too soapy" when she began dating Josh, despite fan approval." This should be cited to Frey in addition to Bucksbaum to cover Whitford's comments
• "Josh began dating his former assistant Donna Moss in the final season" As you've included everyone else's jobs, I think this will add some context for people unfamiliar with the show. You'll additionally need a different source for this sentence as I couldn't find where it says they got together in the final season
  • All done!
    • Can I just check that the sources at the end of the second paragraph are correct? I believe it should be Frey and Bucksbaum after the second sentence and then a new source after the final sentence. Sammielh (talk) 18:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
      • five sentences in the paragraph; 3 and 5 are now cited to Frey (Personally, Whitford wanted his character to end up with Amy Gardner (Mary-Louise Parker) rather than Donna Moss (Janel Moloney)), 4 to Bucksbaum. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 07:47, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
        • Great, looks good! Sammielh (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Role

• "Amy held multiple jobs over the course of the show
• "the Women's Leadership Council" I know this is what the source you cited says but I believe it should be the "Women's Leadership Coalition" (I put on the episode while reviewing this), which is backed up by Shepherd 2012, p. 65.
  • I just left it as "a women's political action group"; no need to be more specific than that. Shame on me for screwing that up, do I have to give back my wingnut nerd-card? :) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:23, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
    • Looks great! Sammielh (talk) 18:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
• "Seeing that Josh appears wary and bashful" I'm not seeing where this is stated in Gregg
  • Reluctantly, Josh meets with Amy but is unsettled by aggressive artwork that “scares” him.... Josh is visibly sheepish in his responses, offering only one word retorts.... I think I might need to rework this section. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:15, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
    • I'm a bit cautious about parts of this section but I appreciate that it's quite a delicate balance Sammielh (talk) 18:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
• "Author Patrick Webster contends" You have already explained who he is in the Creation section; I might also suggest trying a slightly different transition from the sentence before because it's currently a bit abrupt
• For Webster's quote, I'm not able to access the full book but when I searched "militant attitude" on the Google Books preview, it didn't return any results, can you confirm that this is the correct citation?
  • yeah, it's in a footnote on page 253. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:15, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
    • Great, thanks for confirming Sammielh (talk) 18:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
  • All else done!

I'll finish reviewing the prose and check the citations tomorrow. Sammielh (talk) 19:13, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Sammielh! Made initial responses :) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:15, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Role (cont.)

• "In the third season finale, "Posse Comitatus"..." Parry-Giles says this occurs in the episode "We Killed Yamamoto"
  • D'oh! fixed
• You could consider linking "marriage incentives" to marriage promotion
• "these old, fat-assed men" This is a super minor point (can you tell that I'm a lawyer and that attention to detail has been drilled into me) but there's no comma after 'old' in the source
  • Sure, but the source is only to verify the interpretation and show due weight for the things being discussed; it doesn't necessarily get to dictate where the commas in onscreen quotes go. The comma seems better for the flow of the original delivery and grammar. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 04:13, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
    • No problem, just thought I'd mention it Sammielh (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
• I'm not super well versed in what can be included as a plot summary without breaching OR, but I don't see some aspects of the summary of this plot point in the source; please let me know if you'd like some details and I'll try to set it out
  • Please do; it's possible I've screwed up source placement. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 04:13, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
    • I can't see where the source verifies her throwing his phone in the stew and it isn't super clear on her organising women's political groups (it just says she's mobilising opposition) Sammielh (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

      From Berila: One episode, for instance, reveals them cooking dinner together, but then each going to their opposite sides as Amy’s feminist organization disagrees with White House strategy. (My favorite part involves her tossing his cell phone into a pot of simmering stew.)

      From Parry-Giles: Josh replies, "this is going to be a good night. My woman, a fine stew, and a Mets game on national TV." This particular romantic and traditionally domestic interlude is interrupted... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 18:58, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

      • Oh, I see. I didn't realise that Berila was also sourcing that sentence because I was thrown off by the reference to Parry-Giles that I now realise was in relation to the quotation. No issues with that, then! Sammielh (talk) 18:24, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
• I appreciate that there's probably not a huge number of sources out there, but it's a bit jarring to begin the next paragraph with the news that she is resigning her job as chief of staff for the first lady without having been told when she got the position; I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done here, but I thought I would mention it regardless
  • I'll look up some details! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 04:13, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Added a line; thank god for steve heisler, really... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 04:27, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
    • Great, I think this makes it flow a lot better Sammielh (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
• "this showed Gardner's detachment..." You refer to her as Amy throughout, with this exception
• Link Joey Lucas
  • Hey, there should be an article about her... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 04:13, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Reception and influence

• "given Josh's already-existing chemistry with Donna" I'm not sure that already existing should have a hyphen; you could just change this to pre-existing and save any issues
• Link The New York Times
• "For her portrayal of Amy Gardner, Mary-Louise Parker"
  • I don't think it's necessary to only refer to her as amy throughout? This one feels like a point where a little dramatic highlight by spelling out the name doesn't overdo it.
    • That's fine, I nearly didn't mention it Sammielh (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
• "Parker did not share in the 2002 or 2003 nominations for the Screen Actors Guild Award for Outstanding Performance by an Ensemble in a Drama Series given to the cast of The West Wing." I'm not sure if this is relevant to include as I wouldn't have assumed she was included, unless there's a reason that this is noteworthy
  • My thing was that Stockard Channing was a part of it, and she's not main cast... (i mean stockard channing is a national treasure but still) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 04:17, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
    • It might be worth putting something about that if you could find a source that remarks on it, since it's not apparently clear from the article why it's noteworthy when Mary-Louise Parker wasn't in the main cast Sammielh (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

      apparently Channing was main cast for those years! Good for her :) I cut the line. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 19:34, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Sources

• I've had to AGF for a couple of the sources that I couldn't access but otherwise everything seems to cite what it's used for, with a couple exceptions noted above
• For Henerson 2002, I believe it should just be Montreal Gazette (no 'the'; same for the other Newspapers.com sources) and I'm not sure if the archived link is appropriate (it's blocked by a pop-up); I've also saved a clipping for this source if that helps
  • Thanks for the clipping! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 07:40, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
• Is there a reason that Berila isn't listed as the first source in Works Cited?
  • not unless my stupidity counts as a reason, no ;) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 04:41, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
    • it is aesthetically pleasing that the books are both in alphabetical and release-chronological order! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 04:44, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
• Earwig shows a 44% but that's due to the quotes used; I might consider rewording some of them where you think it would be appropriate, but I'll leave that to your discretion

That should be everything; I've also left some comments above. You've done a really good job on this article, the main thing is just checking that every part is sourced (which can obviously be difficult finding in sources with something like this). Sammielh (talk) 18:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

@Sammielh: 'preciate it :) I think I've responded to all I can for now, sorry for the slipshod nature! I think there were one or two things I objected to, a couple follow-ups needed. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 07:48, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

@Theleekycauldron I've responded to your comments above, I believe the only outstanding thing is the source about her throwing Josh's phone in the stew. Sammielh (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

@Sammielh: done! Should be about cleaned up; thanks for the eagle-eyed review! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 19:36, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

@Theleekycauldron: Looks great, I'm happy to pass this GA. Congratulations! Sammielh (talk) 18:24, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

@Sammielh: thanks so much! always a great week when another west wing fan is around :) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 18:31, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Notes