Talk:Amazon Trio

There is currently a redirect from "Fish Eye" to this page, referring to one character's name in this trio.

There is another page, Fish eye lens to describe a style of photographic lens. Now Rectilinear links to that, but I think more people would naturally enter "Fish Eye" to find the lens type, than to find the character.

Should we turn "Fish Eye" into a disambiguation page (to "Fish Eye lens" and "Amazon Trio")?

Alternate Possibility

"In the English adaptation lemures are renamed remless; this is probably an honest mistake as the Japanese pronunciation could signify either word."

While this is possible it is a mistake, couldn't the fact that "remless" are named that way becaue they are REMless, as in dreamless?

• While it's certainly a possibility, I have to write it off to coincidence given the quality of the English version. Danny Lilithborne 03:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
• REMless isn't a real word, Lemures is (it is a latin word for spirits of the dead). Also if you search "The Dictionary of Pandaemonium" for レムレス (the kana used to write the name of these monsters) this entry appears showing the word "Lemures" in western text. Finally the last things that make me doubt this is that, not only are these monsters of the day never shown to lack dreams themselves (the Trio don't have mirrors because they're not really human), but I have the strong impression that when talking about the dreams that are shown by dream mirrors are aspirations and not rapid eye movements/sleep-dreams anyway. GracieLizzie 20:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• I would say that REMless is, at worst, poor romanization and at best, a pun. It certainly shouldn't be considered equal to lemures. Davi Williams 04:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't really call it a mistake as the katakana spells out remuresu. Anyone not knowing what "lemures" are, could interpret the romanization differently. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 08:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Hawk's Eye has red hair?

It looks more pink than red to me. --GracieLizzie 20:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd say you're right. Which came as something of a surprise--I thought he had red hair, too! --Masamage 20:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Rewrote a buncha stuffies

A-ano..I-I just wanteds to say I edited a couple of thingies on the page to make it longer with more information..I thought that the page was too Fisheye biaseds (which is okay with me #^.^# 'cause I love him so much, but not okays for the article T-T), so I decideds to add more thingies and information for the other members of the trio. Is it okay if I do this? UWAAH I'm SO SORRY IF IT'S NOT UWAAH I'm SOO SORRY p-please feel free to revert it if you don't like it...*blushies*...b-but also I was thinking of adding little piccies (pictures) of each member of the trio beside their name isntead of the group piccie? 'cause Fisheye is mainly focused on in the group piccie (which I don't have a problem with eithers #^.^# but stills #><#) and I thought if we added piccies of each of them by themselves it would, wells, y-you knows...make it a little more fair for the three boys and easier for people to get a better view of them ^^ is that okay? UWAAH I'm so sorry if it's not I really really am *blushies* I'm doing my best to help... ~ SnuggleBunny 20:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks good! ^_^ Following your lead, I continued to clean a few things up--not to correct you, but because you made it clear what kind of things could be fixed up in the article. Nice work!! I did shuffle some of your sentences into different places, and removed the 'anime' subheadings (there as a lot of redundancy), but I tried to leave your wording as much as possible. Even more cleanup can and definately should be done, but it's starting to improve. :D --Masamage 02:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Fish Eye is a gay?

He is rather transsexualist (wannabe girl) than gay and those two things are something completely different. This should be noticed. -- 09:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

He flurts and has crushes on guys and I think he even kissed Mamoru I can't remember ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 17:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Check the info for transsexualism. --83.16.109.226 20:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

He dresses up for disguise - it's easier for him to approach victims dressed as a girl than as a guy. If he wanted to become a woman, he'd probably use feminine language forms even when out of disguise - this isn't the case. -Malkinann 23:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

This is the info from artbook:

Fish Eye

The forehead mark is the symbol of the Dead Moon. It's

a black new moon mark.

A tropical fish kept at the circus.

"Little fish eye".

(As a human.) Fish Eye.

Acts as a ball-balancing girl (??) at the circus. But

is very clumsy! Dreams of someday being the best

ball-balancing girl (!) in the world.

Always teased by Tiger Eye [sic] and Hawk's Eye, and

then cries.

H- How mean! Just because I'm the cutest one!

And as I remember he says very often :"Girl like me...".

Is transgender when you dress up as a girl but dont want to change your gender? ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 17:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

That's a little bit more conclusive, thanks for pointing that out. But even that could be taken in another way - he acts as a girl at the circus (cross-dressing) and dreams of being the best ball-balancing girl in the world. (in the sense of better than the real girls). I've put up a notice at WP:SM about this discussion, so hopefully we'll get some people who have seen a lot of SuperS contributing to the discussion. Pink, I hope you don't mind, but I edited your spelling a bit. Transgender might shed a bit of light on the issue. -Malkinann 23:22, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks :P ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 23:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if, rather than just slapping labels on his gender identity and sexuality, we should have a paragraph discussing it. We can say he is homosexual and quite possibly transgender, giving as evidence the facts that he refers to himself as a girl, has daydreams in which he's female, and is attracted to men, but talks like a male, refers to himself as a male, and doesn't bother to dress as a female when approaching another gay man. --Masamage ♫ 18:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

We should probably say that Fisheye is attracted to men, rather than homosexual, if we discuss the transgender issues... Fine difference, I know, but if we were to explore the idea of transgenderism, that would more or less be that considering Fisheye as a woman inside and attracted to men, she wouldn't be homosexual. We could ask the LGBT wikiproject to look at the article to make sure we've got our story straight after we've written it. -Malkinann 23:13, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point. That sounds fine. --Masamage ♫ 23:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I added in the stuff from the Materials Collection, reorganized some other things, and stated that it's "unclear whether Fisheye is intended to be cutesy and gay, or actually transgendered." Does that seem okay? --Masamage ♫ 18:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It's better.  :) Cutesy perhaps isn't the most encyclopaedic of terms, though? ;) I think "Counterbalancing these traits, he speaks Japanese with exclusively masculine pronouns, such as boku when referring to himself, unless he is in disguise." needs reworking... it just sounds odd. -Malkinann 23:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Ha ha, fair enough. I changed it to 'flamboyantly' and reorganized that sentence. Better now? --Masamage ♫ 23:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, much better. Except that the article really looks like "Fisheye and friends" almost.. the others don't have much text. -Malkinann 23:53, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Fisheye and friends! Fu fu fu. And yeah, that's mostly because he's got two totally different paradigms going. Thanks, Cloverway! I think I can fluff up the other ones--all of them, really--now that I've read that part of the manga, but I don't know very much at all about the SuperS anime, so my segues kind of suck. --Masamage ♫ 05:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Iv got the SuperS dvd let me know If I can help ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 09:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

1 2 3

Is it notebal that in one episode Tiger Eye said one, to a target (before trying to capture her) and the trap almost started and he said he had to be carful. Which meens any time they say 1 2 3 the trap starts not just when they want it to ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 23:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Whoa, yes. What episode is that? --Masamage ♫ 23:44, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

139 "Try for the Best of Japan! The Worries of a Beautiful Girl Swordsman"

"Mezase Nippon ichi! Bishōjo kenshi no nayami" (目指せ日本一！美少女剣士の悩み) ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 10:27, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Fisheye is gay? part 2

I made some edits in attempt to better expand and clarify the issue. What it boils down to for me is that, undisguised, Fisheye speaks of himself with masculine terms and dresses in a way that's no more effeminate than his "brothers" wear, and everything else is a disguise and doesn't necessarily reflect on his identity. He's being intentionally deceitful and any conclusions based on his behavior under those circumstances is highly suspect. It's my position that Fisheye gives no indication of wishing to be a girl, just that he enjoys looking and acting like one, and that's not "transgender" but "transvestite". In the interest of compromise, I think it's a good idea to just give all the facts, and say the subject is contentious. -- AvatarMN 01:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

(?!) is WP:POV, informal, and unencyclopedic. -- AvatarMN 01:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The (?!) is also part of a direct quote from Takeuchi... Correctly quoting your sources is encyclopaedic. -Malkinann 01:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I think your edits are excellent in general, and agree with you about stating only the facts. The only thing is that even when Fisheye is in "undisguised" form, he grumps at the other two when they gush over photos of women, telling them they have "no taste," and giggles in glee at hot men. Also, the Materials Collection genuinely does say, explicitly, that he wants to be the best ball-balancing girl in the world, and Naoko registers her acknowledgement of the complication in this with her use of parenthetical punctuation.

(!?) is a direct quote. --Masamage ♫ 01:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

For reference, here is the relevant page; it'll come up as a 403 error, just hit enter in the address bar. Check the column of text directly to his leg. Apparently I did misquote; she actually says (??) and then (!). :P But each time it's after the kanji for shōjo (少女), which any Sailor Moon enthusiast knows is not remotely ambiguous in terms of gender. --Masamage ♫ 01:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Did the high heels make it to the anime? -Malkinann 01:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Looks like yes, but he's still not any fruitier than the other two. o_O --Masamage ♫ 01:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Then I'm sorry, I misunderstood that the interrobang was written by Takeuchi, I thought it was you editorializing on Fisheye's choice of words.

And I'll admit I was having trouble articulating what I was trying to say about the translation. What I mean is that the term for "ball-balancing girl" may be feminine the way that the spanish "zapato" (shoe) is masculine (it's not a shoe for a man, it's just a shoe, and the word's designated masculine). Or there may not be a common form of the word that does not imply the person's famininity... like if a boy wanted to a "ballerina" he may mean that he wants to dress, dance, and get the roles that only women traditionally perform, but it doesn't mean he wants to be a female. He wants to do what female ballet dancers do, not be a female ballet dancer. And maybe boys don't balance balls in Japanese circuses? I just think that the way it's used and phrased now makes it sound like there's more evidence that he's transgender than there is. (Sorry that took so long, I wrote it and an edit conflict made me lose it.) -- AvatarMN 01:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

No worries.

Japanese isn't a gendered language as far as I've ever learned, certainly not the way Spanish is. There are masculine and feminine speaking styles according to who's doing the talking, but not completely separate words. Anyway, the text definitely says pretty clearly that Fisheye fills the role of a female ball-balancer, whatever the norm might be, and Naoko's mini-commentary serves as further verification. ("Shoujo" directly translates to "girl", not "feminine".) --Masamage ♫ 01:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, okay. I thought there might be a word ending like the equivalent of "-ess", but "shoujo" is unambiguous. Well, then, it might just be funny. Like Konatsu in Ranma ½ is called a kunoichi (a female ninja)... possibly because he was raised, dressed, and possibly trained in techniques that kunoichi use and ninjas don't, but he knows he's male and is even heterosexual... but possibly he's just called a Kunoichi because it's funny. See what I mean? I'm just really squirming at the way that including this "ball-balancing girl" stuff emphasizes a bigger case for transgenderism than I think is right. -- AvatarMN 01:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

That's fair. Certainly the other two of the Trio are plenty girly (as seen above) too, the entire thing does give a feeling of having been just to be funny and alarming. I think changing the wording to be less indicative of a /serious/ gender deviancy would be entirely appropriate. --Masamage ♫ 01:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Cool. You going to do that, then?

Oh, I have to address something you said earlier that I didn't comment on when I was going through hell with edit conflicts making me lose what I'd written... In reference to my argument for Fisheye being a transvestite and not transsexual, you said The only thing is that even when Fisheye is in "undisguised" form, he grumps at the other two when they gush over photos of women, telling them they have "no taste," and giggles in glee at hot men. Well, a boy can argue that another boy's got bad taste in women even if he's not interested in women, that's no reflection whatsoever on his gender identity. And giggling over hot men is just as much available to gay men as MTF transsexuals, too. -- AvatarMN 01:56, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure, I can give it a try. And sorry, I vaguely thought you were saying that he wasn't gay, and just acted gay when he was in disguise. Which wouldn't have made a lot of sense, so okay. X) --Masamage ♫ 01:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, no no no no no... LOL I don't think Fisheye could be straight, that would be insane. He's attracted to men. I just don't think he's transsexual, because his costume isn't any more feminine than what his brothers wear, and he self-identifies with masculine language when he's with them. Literally everything else he ever wears and says is part of a human disguise that he's taken to fool and pursue straight guys. I don't think there's any evidence to support him being a transsexual, but I'd be willing to say that the viewers argue about it, because they do, and I don't want to be unilateral, so a compromise is acceptable. (He's not transgendered, though! ;) ) -- AvatarMN 02:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Hee hee. Okay, so I went ahead and stated that Fisheye is usually interpretted as a transvestite rather than a transsexual, which is definitely true, but if we could find a source for that it would be great. Even just a fansite that analyzes the issue would do. --Masamage ♫ 02:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Because someone's putting up citation eyesores, I tried phrasing it as contentious, in hopes that that doesn't need a citation. Saying "most" do tends to draw more requests for fact-checking than "some". -- AvatarMN 02:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Because there are frequent interperetations of Fisheye as transsexual, and a lot of arguements between those people and the ones who think he's not, I suspect that if we don't say something about the arguement then someone will come along and say he's transsexual because nothing is there now. -- AvatarMN 02:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Citation-needed is like a memory-tag, so that we remember to come back and find an actual source. It's a pity that Hello Sailor! was never finished... Emily Ravenwood mentions that all of the Amazons have some ambiguity to them. -Malkinann 02:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Exactly; I put that tag there. ^_^;; And no, saying something is contentious also needs citing, in a perfect article. Actually, I decided that whole sentence could be removed. It would be nice to have links to the homosexual, transvestism, and transexual articles, but that's the only reason I can think of that that sentence is actually helpful in any way, which doesn't strike me as a good enough reason. I think it's been helpful to polish out our presentation of the evidence, though.

Also, responding to one of AvatarMN's edit summaries, once again I was the one to request citation on the fishtank thing, and it's not polite to remove those just because nothing else has been "solicited" for verification. Everything else should also have citation--look at the Ami Mizuno article to see what I mean. So now I'm going to go through and cite up all these characters' appearances. Meanwhile, can you please tell me whether the fishtank thing happens in Act 35 with the main body of Fisheye's stuff? Or is it done later, as resolution? --Masamage ♫ 02:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I certainly don't mean to be impolite, you've been easy to work with, I just think that "citation needed" is kind of an eyesore, and should only be used when it's something that people argue about in order to stop the arguement (though I'm saying that "people argue about it" itself isn't worthy of a citation tag). I mean, is it required that we cite their names by referring to the issue where they're first named? That we cite their deaths and resurrections with issue numbers? When Fisheye lured Ami into a trap? When he kissed Mamoru? Where Hawkseye's powers were depicted as fire-based? We can't do that for everything, it'd make the article a mess. The fact that Fisheye was put in Mamoru's tank happened in the manga, like all these other things, it's no more citation-needing. However, I don't have the manga any longer, to give you directions to the moment, sorry. -- AvatarMN 02:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

According to WP:V, "Material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article" (emphasis mine). And yes, we should absolutely be citing their deaths, ressurections, and other events; there are many techniques to this that keep the article from looking like a mess. The Guardian/Inner Senshi's articles are great examples of this. Anyway, I looked around and the only time I see our boy in a fishtank is at the beginning of 35, when Ami takes him home (prior to his messing with her head). He seems to be pretty solidly dead by the end of that chapter. --Masamage ♫ 02:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Holy crap, you're actually citing everything I mentioned! They were just random examples, I could have pointed to every sentance in the article! This is highly irregular. The only way people would challange the fact that they died and were resurrected is if you pointed to the issue, and that issue number was wrong, they wouldn't dispute the fact, it's too... factual. Man, I'm shutting up and leaving before my facetious comments mess up anything else! LOL -- AvatarMN 02:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Lol, that was the only way we band-aided the Sailor Cosmos issue... "There are multiple theories [citation needed]" until we could reference a couple of the theories as being proof of multiple theories. Common knowledge isn't considered to need a citation, but then you've got to ask yourself, "just how common is common knowledge?" The articles here need to be useful for non-fans and fans alike, so I think it's better to err on the side of caution.-Malkinann 02:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Um, I started putting in those citations before you made that comment. There's nothing irregular about it, unless you've only been reading "start" class articles. People need to be able to check all of our facts. --Masamage ♫ 02:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, how about citing the anime (which has radically different events), for every little thing that may be be disputed but there's no specific reason to believe so, too? {Runs away.) --- AvatarMN 02:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so now you're being impolite again. How about actually looking at the Ami Mizuno article and witnessing the sheer number of citations, how easy they are to read through, and the fact that it has passed peer-review as a Good Article. --Masamage ♫ 02:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I just checked out your user and talk pages, and see that Wikipedia appears to be your primary pastime. Right or wrong, I just can't seem to get along with you type of guys. It always breaks down. -- AvatarMN 05:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

It only looks that way because I don't talk about the rest of my life on Wikipedia; off-wiki harrassment happens to be a popular pastime in and of itself, among some folk. Anyway, I was under the impression we were getting along fine so far. I promise not to make any generalizations about you if you don't make any about me. --Masamage ♫ 06:19, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I mean that I can see that you've put an incredible amount of time into Wikipedia, an amount of time I consider to be truly astounding. Looking at your user and talk pages reveals that, plus the fact you've made 550 edits in the last month. I can't compete with that, I can't think like someone who does that, I haven't gotten along with someone like that yet. (I don't know where the "off-wiki harrasment" non sequiter comes from but I don't like any of the ideas I have.) You're much nicer than the veterans at the Doctor Who pages that I've run-in with and been turned-off of those articles by, but now I know editing Sailor Moon content isn't for me, either. I can't deal with editing articles where my contribution is changed 3 minutes after I've posted it (my first edit to "Amazon Trio on June 6), and turns what I thought would be a quick thing into an hours-long discussion. Maybe that's my fault. More power to ya, but I'll contribute elsewhere. -- AvatarMN 08:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Um...okay then. I'm really sorry to see you go. My edits get changed too, you know. I've created whole articles and had them deleted. It happens to everybody. The vast majority of what you did is still there, and this article is much better because of the comments you brought up; the more help we can get with the SuperS anime the better, and there are other subjects we need help with, too. I mean, feel free to edit whatever you wan. I just can't feel good about somebody abandoning a field of interest just because I'm in it, looming ominously and being an excessively fast typist. I don't pay any attention to my own edit count. You certainly don't have to. --Masamage ♫ 09:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

English voice of Tiger's Eye

Many sources claim that Jason Barr, not Lyon Smith, is the dub voice of Tiger's Eye. Lyon Smith voiced Sapphire in English, and though the voices sound similar, I don't think they are both done the same person. I am changing the article to say this unless anyone has any objections. 71.232.226.107 19:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Looks like you're right. Thanks! --Masamage ♫ 21:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Names and Mineral

Right now the article has this:

"The trio has three members: Tiger's Eye, Hawk's Eye and Fisheye. Their names, like those of most Sailor Moon villains, are derived from the names of gemstones."

However gemstones links to just tiger's eye. Now tiger's eye and hawk's eye are the same thing, but what about fish's eye? I found a few pages that refer to fish's eye as being an old name for Apophyllite. Should it be changed to

""The trio has three members: Tiger's Eye, Hawk's Eye and Fisheye. Their names, like those of most Sailor Moon villains, are derived from the names of the gemstones tiger's eye and fish's eye."

However the wiki page for apophylite has no mention of it being called fish's eye.

Also, wasn't the name for the amazon trio derived from the mineral amazonite? Should that be mentioned as well? --Deepraine (talk) 21:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

My understanding had been that they were all varieties of tigerseye? I can't find my source on that, though. :/ Also, the manga and musicals both talk about how the Dead Moon Circus comes from the Amazon Jungle, so that seems the most likely source of the group name. Not sure whether the anime mentions that explicitly or not, but jungles are shown in flashback. --Masamage ♫ 00:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

According to SailorEnergy.net, whose webmaster is a geologist too, Hawk's eye is a variety of Tiger's eye (both are a variety of quartz), and Fisheye might be a reference to a "fish eye" bubble-looking form of agate (a different variety of quartz). [1] -Malkinann (talk) 05:39, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

If that's the case, and fisheye isn't really a mineral name, I think it'd be OR to say anything about the derivation. In my opinion, she most likely just wanted another -eye name... --Masamage ♫ 06:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

"Fish eye agate" seems to be the actual name of that variety of agate, and if we cite it to SailorEnergy.net, it's not original research. We do have to think about how reliable SailorEnergy.net is, but I think it should be fine. Is what rock Fisheye is named after highly controversial? Further research into "fish eye" has also turned up [2], which does support the apophyllite = "fish eye (the rock)" connection, if not apophyllite = fish eye (the rock) = Fisheye of the Amazon Trio. -Malkinann (talk) 06:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC)