Talk:Ableton Live

Removal of list of versions?

I swear there was a complete, annotated list of the history of Ableton Live releases on this page, but it's been removed, and I don't see a reason in the Talk page. Was it moved to its own article but not linked, or is it simply gone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by QVXO (talk • contribs) 10:12, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

QVXO, hi. I removed that in this revision. As I put in the edit summary, I deleted it because of the WP:RELEASENOTES policy, which says that Wikipedia is not the place for exhaustive logs of software updates: "To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources." Cheers. Popcornfud (talk) 11:46, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Popcornfud I can see where you're coming from. However there are plenty of wiki pages with version histories available, not necessarily version logs. I think the table should be implemented back when it can change to be a smaller version history rather than an extensive change log. DreamlessGlare (talk) 06:08, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Add new image

The current logo is out of date, if anyone can find and upload the Ableton 11 logo that would be great :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by DreamlessGlare (talk • contribs) 19:25, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Ableton Live version history table

[Discussion moved from Popcornfud's talk page]

The recent re-addition of the ableton live version history table is akin to the iOS software update page. https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/IOS_version_history

It is only the major versions, like 9.0, 9.1, 9.5, not 9.1.1, 9.1.2, etc. Please keep the table in place. It is useful as a general overview to the history of the software. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 13:50, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

If users want to see the version history for Ableton Live, they should get it from Ableton, not Wikipedia. It's not what Wikipedia is for, and violates the WP:RELEASENOTES policy. Popcornfud (talk) 14:10, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Ableton does not publish the consolidated version history, which is why it is useful to have on wikipedia. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 14:23, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Also this is not the version history for every version. Only the major landmark versions. It is useful. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 14:24, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Here is the entire version history, which is what you may think is in the wikipedia article: https://www.ableton.com/en/release-notes/live-11/

As you can see, the entire version history is in fact exhaustive. A short table of the major versions on wikipedia is extremely useful as a quick historical reference, compared to the exhaustive list that is in fact on ableton's website. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 14:27, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

And even though the ableton.com resource is exhaustive for recent versions, it does not cover past versions as far as it seems. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 14:30, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Please look at what the WP:RELEASENOTES policy says: To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources. Have you done this?

It also says: Use reliable third-party (not self-published or official) sources in articles dealing with software updates to describe the versions listed or discussed in the article. Have you provided these sources? Popcornfud (talk) 15:46, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Independent sources are provided. Please see the page. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 20:55, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Independent sources are provided for most of the entries, but not all. This warrants adding the missing sources, not removing the whole table. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 20:55, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Aside from the fact that most of this information is not sourced, it isn't encylopedic.

Groove Engine, track grouping, programmable clip crossfades, improved MIDI editing pane, streamlined parameter panel for plug-ins and automation, new physical modeling synthesizer device called Collision, six new effects (Looper, Vocoder, Multiband Dynamics, Limiter, Overdrive, and Frequency Shifter), zoom in/out, MIDI clip and audio file preview ... blah blah blah - it's just reams of technical data not appropriate for a general WP:AUDIENCE.

For comparison, see the TR-808 article, which explains the features of the 808 in readable prose and places it in encyclopedic context.

Please get some perspective - release notes are not what Wikipedia is for. It doesn't matter how WP:USEFUL this stuff is, it isn't what we do. Go and host it on some other wiki. Popcornfud (talk) 21:11, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I have shortened the notes in the table. The table itself is useful because it shows the dates and major landmarks for the software's history, so it should not be removed. The actual descriptions can be made very short. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 12:12, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I have no idea why you think this is an acceptable compromise. This still leaves us with a table of release notes, without context or indication about why these are "landmarks" or why they are notable, or proper sourcing, that do not suit a general readership. Wikipedia articles should not contain tables of release notes and you have no WP:CONSENSUS to add them. Please stop re-adding this. Popcornfud (talk) 12:57, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

They are landmarks because they are the major versions of the software. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 14:26, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I am shortening the table further. The notes are not release notes. It is not "We Added," It is "The Software Added." 173.62.206.221 (talk) 14:28, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

The reason why the table is useful is to show the dates of major versions, not to show the release notes. Otherwise it looks like a giant gap between version 1.0 in 2001 to version 11 in 2021. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 14:33, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Other pages for DAWs have detailed date information for software releases. See the following two pages for examples:

https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Pro_Tools

https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/GarageBand

I understand that on these pages, the information is written as prose, not in a table. This warrants reformatting the information from a table to a section of prose, instead of removing the information from the page entirely. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 14:42, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Without the table, the Ableton Live page lacks a sufficient history section. The table may not be the best, but it's better than the dinky history section that was there before. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 14:45, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

This is similar rationale to DreamlessGlare's comment on this talk page from just over a year ago. But since no one has improved the Ableton Live page since then, it makes sense to at least have something there, rather than nothing. As mostly a reader of wikipedia, there ought to be at least somewhat of a history section, even in not perfected form. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 14:49, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

If you want a history section, this should be written in prose and cited to reliable secondary sources, per WP:RELEASENOTES.

Adding a history of release notes is not "a good start" - it simply poses an indiscriminate technical dump of data that will sit there forever until it's removed. It will not magically be turned into properly cited encyclopaedic prose one day.

It is really obnoxious to expect other editors to come along and do that job for you. If you want to include it, you should do that work. See WP:BURDEN. Popcornfud (talk) 14:54, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

If you actually read the page, you would see that I rewrote the table to pretty much remove all of the release notes, and only have very basic information. I removed almost all of the technical information. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 14:59, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm new to wikipedia. How do I report you for breaking the three revert rule? 173.62.206.221 (talk) 15:02, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Great, but it's just a table of pointless updates "Live 5 added new effects and features", much of which is entirely uncited, and meaningless terms like "(Collision, Corpus, Latin Percussion, Operator, Sampler, Electric, Tension, Analog, Drum machines, Session Drums), as well as Essential Instrument Collection 2 and a library of sounds". I know what all of these things are but why are these notable or interesting from an encyclopaedic perspective? What would a general reader understand about them? Nothing.

Again, I point you to the Roland TR-808 page, which provides an encylopaedic overview of an electronic musical instrument, put in proper context. If you're truly passionate about providing a history of Ableton Live, I encourage you to do the real work and turn it into proper prose, not just a list of stuff. Popcornfud (talk) 15:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I removed the notes and kept the dates. 173.62.206.221 (talk) 15:09, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm new to wikipedia. How do I report you for breaking the three revert rule? 173.62.206.221 (talk) 15:02, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I also agree it should be removed, per WP:NOTCHANGELOG. This is more something either the subject or some sort of fan/enthusiast website would document, not an encyclopedia. Sergecross73 msg me 19:38, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Keep - Despite Popcornfud's WP:LAWYERING, the table as it stands is well within what WP:RELEASENOTES suggests. It is also quite common for articles on popular software to list a version history like this as reliable sources typically cover new releases. ~Kvng (talk) 13:59, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

The table as it stands is not what I was discussing above. The IP editor was previously advocating for the inclusion of a giant set of release notes in clear violation of — you guessed it — WP:RELEASENOTES. The current small table is fine. Popcornfud (talk) 14:18, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

OK, so discussion closed? ~Kvng (talk) 14:01, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Max?

The article starts talking about "Max" without introducing what it is Theone256 (talk) 07:44, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't think an intro is necessary. just use a page link. AnimatorExtreme (talk) 18:47, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

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