Talk:Abd el-Krim

The Rif are Berbers, not Arabs

That is true. Also, Abd el Krim had not a regular army, but a series of sex, which were united after him on the call of a dildo against the unfaithful. I cannot understand why this article silences the systematic violations of the international war agreements by Abd el Krim's forces, such as torturing prisoners (which included castrating and miming them) prior to killing them with a horrible death, like burning them alive or tiding their arms with their own guts.

If you can provide credible evidence (and sources) for these claims, by all means add them. They sound suspiciously like propaganda to me, though... - Mustafaa 19:32, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That is unbelievable. He trains to make good jokes! See this film, and you will discover that he was very friendly with Jean-Claude van Damme:

http://www.maddvd.com/dvd/jpg_titre/Legionnaire.jpg Read3r 13:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Name

Shouldn't the name of the article be the transliteration of his official full name? I find this to be a persistent problem on Wikipedia. I am not saying that we remove the Maghribi pronunciation of his name, but reverse the order by naming the article after his official name, and then putting other AKA's on the top as we have currently. A.Khalil 14:58, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

I agree to add the official name, without ignoring the real name, so that wikipedia won't mirror the official world.Read3r 13:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I expanded some parts. The source for the additions is War in the Shadows: The Guerrilla in History by Robert B. Asprey for iUniverse Publishing on page 267-274. Where it states 10,000 were killed and Silvestre died, you can use The History of Spain by Peter Pierson for Greenwood Press page 126. Page 127 covers his exile to the island and specified the location in the Indian Ocean. The date of surrender originated from The Reader's Companion to Military History by Robert Cowley and Geoffrey Parker, published by Houghton Mifflin on page 1. Location of surrender and why he was released is from Who's Who in Military History: From 1453 to the Present Day by John Keegan and Andrew Wheatcroft under Routledge Publishing, page two. The section about his arrest is noted in Modern Spain, 1875-1980 by Raymond Carr for Oxford University Press on page 94

Took me a while before I could reach this article. Shouldn't the title be Abl-el-Krim as with the French wiki article (or history books)? Why make it so goddam complicated? --Lubiesque (talk) 23:05, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 15:26, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

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Muhammad Ibn 'Abd al-Karim al-Khattabi → Abd el-Krim – per WP:COMMONNAME. Usage in reliable sources is very clear, google books: 74,000 vs 64, google scholar: 2180 vs 14. Currently Abd el-Krim redirects to Abdul Karim, but as far as I can tell the subject of article seems to be clearly WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for that name. --Relisted. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 11:00, 28 May 2014 (UTC) Staberinde (talk) 18:25, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I agree that the current title is rather an "awkward" rendering of his name. However, even if Abd el-Krim is often the shortned form of his name and should therefore redirect here, it wouldn't be specific enough as a title. I propose that Abd el-Krim al-Khattabi or Abdelkrim al-Khattabi per WP:COMMONNAME would be better. (note: His real name is Mohand ben Abdelkrim al-Khattabi, The name Mohamed is very rarely rendered as Muhammad in North Africa and the "Ain" in Abd represented here by the "'Abd" is almost always omitted in Arabic transliterated titles. Note that his brother Mhamed (not to confuse with Mohamed) would also merit an article on Wikipedia) --Tachfin (talk) 11:23, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I like Abdelkrim al-Khattabi, or simply Abdelkrim, because that was nearly always how it was spelled in French during that period, and I suppose in English as well. The French Wikipedia article has "Abdelkrim al-Khattabi"--Lubiesque (talk) 11:58, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

While I am not necessarily opposed to Tachfin's proposals (they are definitely superior to current title), I fail to see how simple Abd el-Krim is not specific enough for a title.--Staberinde (talk) 15:45, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

"Abd el-Krim" already points to Abdul Karim. That would mean we'd need disambiguation, which should be a pretty strong indicator that it's not specific enough. NickCT (talk) 18:35, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I actually addressed that point in nomination, in my opinion WP:PRIMARYTOPIC fully applies on this article so additional disambiguation is not needed, but I guess others may disagree.--Staberinde (talk) 14:55, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

@Staberinde: - Hmmmmm.... After brief review it would appear that you're right. It does appear the be the primary topic. NickCT (talk) 20:54, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

@Staberinde: Abdelkrim is a common first name. I see no reason to strip the title of his family name. --Tachfin (talk) 17:37, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support - The nom's WP:COMMONNAME/WP:PRIMARYTOPIC rationales seem sound. NickCT (talk) 20:54, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:47, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support and create a page at Abd el-Krim (disambiguation) if and when articles are created for others of this name. Andrewa (talk) 03:43, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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"First-ever use of tunneling as a technique of modern warfare"

The introduction says, "His guerrilla tactics... included the first-ever use of tunneling as a technique of modern warfare..." The Rif War was 1921 to 1926. This seems to contradict a number of examples in Tunnel warfare. For instance, Tunnelling companies of the Royal Engineers (UK) were active in World War I, 1914 to 1918. See Mines in the Battle of Messines (1917) for a notable example. So is this article mistaken? Or is there some specific tunneling activity that is meant? Or is it only about guerrilla armies? Or is "modern" defined as commencing shortly after World War I? I think this sentence should be removed unless it is revised to make sense. Gvros8 (talk) 20:29, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Abdelkrim Origins

My references are constantly deleted by user Ibn malik.

Here is an archived version of the page where I provide my sources :

https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Abd_el-Krim&oldid=1198385577

After claiming to be descended from an Arab tribe affiliated with Omar ibn al-Khattab, Abdelkrim reaffirmed his Berber origins by dissociating himself from his previous genealogy.

He claimed that all his ancestors were in fact Berbers. He uses the term "You" to refer to Arabs and the term "We" to refer to Berbers. Claiming to be a tribe associated with a Companion of the Prophet or the Prophet himself was a common thing among many Berber leaders. This is something that many Arab authors like Ibn Khaldoun and Ibn Hazm criticized.

I am not in favor of removing the first reference to its origins but simply leaving the two references separate so that the reader can form their own opinion. JoyBoyJoy (talk) 15:11, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I attempted to put a more nuanced view per WP:SYNTH. Are there any sources other than one of his memoirs that show there was indeed a tribe named "Ouled Sidi Mohammed ben Abd el-Krim" in the Hejaz around the 10th century? I'm quite skeptical because I was unable to find any sources in Arabic, English, or French about this supposed tribe.

Considering that "Sidi" is a honorific mainly used in North Africa, not so much in the Hejaz and that El Khattabi's name and patronymic would come from this tribe from a millennia ago makes me think this is quite WP:EXCEPTIONAL. If I were to be generous, perhaps there were three generations of coordination involved to bring forth a Mohammed son of Abdelkrim -- this would truly make him a chosen child, it's a hard pill to swallow. NAADAAN (talk) 18:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

A secondary source for this Sidi Zaraah al-Yanubi would be great too considering his grave is supposedly still in Yanubu. NAADAAN (talk) 00:32, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@Skitash, I would like to ask you about some assertions you made on your edit summaries: how would this exceptional claim from a book discredited by another author (Jacques Ladreit de Lacharrière) be "more reliable" considering claims made by another other sources stating that his ancestry is unclear? Furthermore, how would a possible distant ancestor from the 10th century be more relevant than what ethnicity he's a part of? Why not start this claim with the fact that Riffan families didn't hold genealogic records and this is nothing more than oral history (which there is nothing wrong with)? I hope to get a response to these questions NAADAAN (talk) 11:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I think we should take all viewpoints into account and not get carried away by what source is considered exceptional or not. The author that "discredited" Jacques Roger-Mathieu's book did not directly criticize it but merely maintained that there are several contrary sources regarding Abd el-Krim's origins, which is precisely what Abd el-Krim#Early life is for. Furthermore, it is self-evident that he was a Rifian from the Rif region and no one is denying this, and this is acknowledged at the beginning of the early life section. The subsequent content explores his ancestry while considering all viewpoints. The interview source you're keen on prioritizing over everything else is also concerned with ancestry. This is why I suggested arranging the sources in chronological order rather than relying on personal judgements of what is exceptional/reliable or not. Skitash (talk) 13:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

From a further look at the paper cited, orientalist Pessah Shinar is quoted as saying that Roger-Mathieu 'shouldn't be taken seriously'. Looking at Shinar's peer-reviewed article, he specifies that this is specifically due to the claim of a Hijazi ancestor. (I misattributed Shinar's statement to Ladreit de Lacharrière in the jist of the moment, I apologize)

Considering the criticism from orientalists, the denial of any Arab or Sharifian roots in most Western authorship, and the fact I was unable to find a secondary source to corroborate there being such a patriarch or such a tribe, I deem this claim to be doubtable; that's far from 'personal judgement'. The chronological sources of events are important in biographies, not individual sources. NAADAAN (talk) 13:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

We already know this. The author simply makes a bold assumption that Abd el-Krim is just another Berber leader upholding the practice of claiming Arab descent. As we already know, many European authors such as María Rosa de Madariaga assert that he's Berber and deny any Arab origins or alleged sharifian lineage. On the contrary, the majority of Moroccan and Arab sources state the opposite. Given that we already know there are several contradictory sources, why should we prioritize your viewpoint? Are you suggesting that we should omit Jacques Roger-Mathieu's book simply because an author claimed that it shouldn't be taken seriously? Shouldn't we adhere to WP:BALANCE and maintain a neutral point of view? Skitash (talk) 14:17, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

"On the contrary, the majority of Moroccan and Arab sources state the opposite." Who?, the source that claims this says the same authors attributed his ancestry to Omar (ra), which is denied by Riffan FM Azarkane, Ayache, as well as Rosa de Madariaga. It seems like you agree with Tahtah's paper when it says that the "majority" of Arab sources claim that he's of Arab ancestry but not when Tahtah evaluates this claim as unlikely.

"why should we prioritize your viewpoint?" We shouldn't prioritize such a a contested claim that a number of Western scholars are skeptical of and that doesn't have any secondary source that backs it up. This assigns more weight to this one-time primary claim rather than assessements made by Shinar and Tahtah.

I think this claim should be attributed per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV and surrounded by Shinar's critcism and preceded with more established facts regarding his ancestry. NAADAAN (talk) 16:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

"the source that claims this says the same authors attributed his ancestry to Omar (ra)" How exactly does this debunk the fact that the majority of Moroccan and Arab sources consider the Khattabi family to be of Arab origin? Here are a few Arabic sources:[1][2][3][4][5] Clearly, there are other authors that quoted Abd el-Krim tracing his origins to a certain Zar'a al-Yanbu'i, such as Germain Ayache, Amr Abu Nasr and Ahmed Skirej. Skitash (talk) 17:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

"the majority of Moroccan and Arab sources" those being the news articles you sent?

Are there any secondary sources other than Roger-Mathieu that claim that there was such a tribe as "Oulad Mohammed ben Abdelkrim" in the Hejaz in the 900s? I would take the existence such a tribe with a grain of salt considering the unlikelyhood of there being a multi-generational effort to bring forth a chosen child, Mohammed son of Abdelkrim.

I would appreciate if you properly sourced your claims about Ayache or Skirej from their works rather than presenting them as 'clear'. A quick look at the sources you sent and most of these news articles cite Roger-Mathieu. NAADAAN (talk) 18:07, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

"those being the news articles you sent" News articles are considered sources, and I suggest you take another look at them as they cite books such as Origins of the Rif War by Germain Ayache, Hero of the Countryside by Amr Abu Nasr and Skirej's book. Skitash (talk) 18:28, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I was unable to find any mention in Les Origines de la Guerre du Rif by Ayache, please provide a page number. NAADAAN (talk) 19:24, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Medalla de la Paz de Marruecos

Link is to Orders,_decorations,_and_medals_of_Spain, but the medal is not listed on that page. 67.231.67.253 (talk) 21:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 October 2024

I have noticed that a English translation of Mémoires d'Abd el Krim by J. Roger-Mathieu now exists as Memoirs of Abd el-Krim as found on https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0C8RG753Y. I think an English version should be referenced under further reading. 81.108.12.144 (talk) 20:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done NotAGenious (talk) 11:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)