Talk:2024 Mmamatlakala bus crash

Inconsistent Death Toll

In the Casualties section of the article, it's said that 45 people died, but then a gender breakdown adds up to 46 deaths. These can't both be true, but I can't find any sources besides the Reuters source used that claims that 46 people died, so I believe it may have accidentally counted the girl that survived as one of deceased. Does anyone have more details on this?--Elipticon (talk) 13:49, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Normally reliable sources make mistakes, but we don't have to follow them. It's even worse than you suggest as it says 31+15 passengers died, thereby excluding the driver, making it 47 in all. The "31+15" should be deleted (I also couldn't find any such breakdown in any other reference, all of which have 45 deaths) and, indeed, better to remove that Reuters reference altogether. It is also used to claim that Ramaphosa "pledged support to the nation [ie Botswana]", though that is not in the article, at least as of now. It is clear that that Reuters article has been revised over time, but that cannot now be verified as they prevent archiving (another reason not to use it). - Davidships (talk) 14:18, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Plagiarism

First paragraph in the background section is straight up plagarized from this article: https://www.dw.com/en/south-africa-bus-crash-leaves-dozens-dead/a-68695354

If we could get a change to this part it would be great Sharrdx (talk) 03:41, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Still plagarized as of 3/4/24 Sharrdx (talk) 16:01, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Notability

I've tagged this article as its notability is tenuous. Individual events are not notable unless they have significant long-term coverage; per WP:SUSTAINED, Wikipedia is a lagging indicator of notability and simple news coverage is not sufficient. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:51, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Possible vandalism?

Hi, is this nonsense about "unlucky" and "lucky" in the lead relevant or is it just vandalism? I am not bold enough to edit it so, I am just raising awareness.

EDIT: Apologies, it was fixed in the time it took me to write this. SynthGuard (talk) 18:45, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

It’s an LTA IP who prolifically targets disaster related pages. Said IP should always be banned long term. Borgenland (talk) 01:38, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Bridge location

Yesterday I did some editing that tried to avoid formulaic language about the accident. When English news agencies report on accidents of this kind, they follow a highly standardized form (known as bus plunge) to give the story "human interest" — that is, to sensationalize it. The verb is always "plunge", the destination is always a "ravine", etc.

Anyway, in my research I located the bridge as crossing the Xume River which another editor found to be incorrect. Indeed, I cannot verify that the bridge crosses a river gorge at all so perhaps that should be reverted to "ravine" as the sources say, pending more information about what sort of geological feature is involved. 2601:642:4600:D3B0:D415:E05B:BCAE:F30C (talk) 14:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 15:19, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Read the request, please. 2601:642:4600:D3B0:D415:E05B:BCAE:F30C (talk) 15:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done Liu1126 (talk) 21:18, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Proposed name change to 2024 Mamatlakala highway bus crash

Can someone help me propose this change? It better follows MOS as far as I can tell, and most of the reliable sources for this article are using "crash" not "accident" (as the AP suggests) Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 15:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

You can propose a move by following the instructions at WP:RSPM or using Twinkle's XFD function. Liu1126 (talk) 21:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I've added the proposal. Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 23:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

@ 2409:4071:219D:BF19:1480:F15D:FE78:DA20 (talk) 15:52, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Agnostic on the change, but shouldn't both the current and proposed titles have "Mmamatlakala" rather than "Mamatlakala"? Per Google Maps (maps.app.goo.gl/XL87URbSCe2xSsHx8) and most of the news coverage. Moscow Mule (talk) 21:55, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 1 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to 2024 Mmamatlakala bus crash. Consensus on the alternate proposed title. – robertsky (talk) 05:57, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

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Mamatlakala highway accident → 2024 Mmamatlakala Highway crash – None of the sources cited are still using the word 'accident' and Mmamatlakala is the correct spelling as far as I can tell. Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 23:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

and what's the point of including the year? Bedivere (talk) 02:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:NCWWW Pdubs.94 (talk) 02:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

"Some articles do not need a year for disambiguation when, in historic perspective, the event is easily described without it". Are there other notable Mamatlakala highway accidents? If the response is "no", then the article title should not include the year. By the way, I oppose moving the article as it is perfectly fine titled. Bedivere (talk) 06:45, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

This is not how I interpret it, the guidelines are quite clear:

“In the majority of cases, the title of the article should contain the following three descriptors:

1. When the incident happened.

2. Where the incident happened.

3. What happened.” Pdubs.94 (talk) 02:27, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support. The year is mandatory for articles like this, per WP:NCE, unless they're so well-known globally that this would be redundant. Tragic as it is, the bus crash isn't a major international incident and like other such events, benefits from a year for context.  — Amakuru (talk) 07:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Mmamatlakala is a mountain, not a highway. The highway in this case is the R518 (South Africa). And the accident was a bus plunge not a crash. I reckon that a better title would be Limpopo bus plunge. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:13, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support Some of the "See also" links on this very page use that format and consistency seems like a valid aspiration, all other things being equal. But before renaming the article, maybe decide whether it should be called "Mma Matlakala", "Mmamatlakala", or "Mamatlakala", since all three are being used seemingly interchangeably. 82.15.19.183 (talk) 09:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
• Move to 2024 Mamatlakala highway accident. The year is useful, but nothing else needs changing. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  • Comment We need to follow reliable sources, and none are using the word accident. Every reliable source is using 'crash'. Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 00:18, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

    Comment WP:DESCRIPTOR also supports avoiding the use of subjective words such as “accident”. Crash seems to be appropriate. Pdubs.94 (talk) 02:32, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support per 82.15.19.183. That School Editor 101 03:08, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support the inclusion of the year and changing "accident" to "crash" (as the former is a loaded word and violates NPOV). I have no opinion on the place name. Schwede66 05:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support per above reasoning on year and subjective words. ChessEric 05:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support the change with year but would prefer 2024 Mmamatlakala bus crash. But whatever header is decided, please include the year as per standard format. Conlinp (talk) 10:38, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support Conlinp's suggested name. Support adding year per WP:NCE. Neutral on spelling of place name per IP user, and as I have not reviewed sources myself. Oppose capitalizing "highway" per Andrew Davidson; prefer "bus" instead. Support "crash" per WP:DESCRIPTOR. Wracking ^talk! 16:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Done moved to 2024 Mmamatlakala bus crash Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 04:12, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Dreameditsbrooklyn, take note, next time let an uninvolved editor close and move the article. – robertsky (talk) 05:56, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.