Talk:2012 Krasnodar Krai floods

Proposed Deletion

I object. This is a current event, documenting a natural disaster which incurred many deaths and large property damage. I am copy-editing this as we speak and I feel that this article should not be marked for deletion so soon after its creation. Aleksandar Bulovic' (talk) 13:36, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

The problem is is that we are not a newspaper and there's no evidence of this event having enduring notability. Furthermore, there's plenty of room at Krasnodar Krai to discuss the details. We should not be rushing to create articles on events until we know that they will have a significant long-lasting impact. --MASEM (t) 13:42, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Well too bad, someone removed the delete Proposition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.211.188.131 (talk) 16:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I hope you are joking? Clearly notable. Regards.--GoP_T^C_N 17:38, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

There's a difference between "news worthy" which this is, and notability, which this hasn't shown yet. This presently fails WP:NEVENT. --MASEM (t) 17:47, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

May I repeat, someone removed the delete Proposition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.211.188.131 (talk) 19:20, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Which only means that the next step would be to take this to AFD, which I will probably do if this is all the impact this event has after a few days. --MASEM (t) 19:23, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Then why didn't you wait before you made the proposition? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.211.188.131 (talk) 19:43, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Article move

I moved this article from "2012 Russia floods" to "2012 Russian floods" to try and keep the title consistent with other events within the country, like in this category. Thanks. -- Luke (Talk) 20:19, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Errr, shouldn't it rather be "2012 Krasnodar Krai floods"? Russia is huge, 2012 is long. The article with a narrowly specified subject has a too widely specified title. Hellerick (talk) 16:21, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Strong support moving to "2012 Krasnodar Krai floods", because the current title suggests floods all over Russia, just as 2010 Russian wildfires shows fires and drought over much of Russia. ~AH1 ^(discuss!) 00:39, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Sluice gates

There are no controllable sluice gates in the nearby Neberdzhaevskoe reservoir.

A strange statement to be included in the article, given the following report in The Guardian:

A spokesman for the prosecutor general's investigative committee said the reservoir was not involved in the intense flooding. Local prosecutors earlier admitted the gates had been opened, but it was too early to say if that caused the flooding. Nearby towns were untouched.

Skinsmoke (talk) 12:19, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

There is the report about technical facilities on the Neberdzhaevsky water reservoir: [1] (in Russian) (is was online before the floods, it was made by hydrology safety institute). There are 8 photos of it after the text. The only high-volume water bypass is [2] which is uncontrollable (it will bypass when water level reaches 182 meters above mean sea level; and the reservoir has dam with top level of 185 meters. This bypass is described as (not the best translation as I don't know hydrology terms in English): `a5b (talk) 18:54, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

2. Водосбросное сооружение                                                   2. Water discharge structure
Тип сооружения: шахтный водосброс                                            Type of facility: shaft type water discharge  (vertical shaft + horizontal tunnel)
Грунты основания: известняки, мергель и песчаники.                           Foundation soils: limestone, marl and sandstone.
Основные размеры сооружения:                                                 The main dimensions of facilities:
- отметка порога водослива – 182,0 м;                                        - Mark the threshold of the spillway - 182.0 m;
- профиль воронки имеет круговое очертание с радиусом закругления 5,27 м;    - Has a funnel shape is circular with a radius of curvature of 5.27 m;

And one more reliable source (I just added it to article): "<ref>Hydrometeorological Centre of Russia: (in Russian) 09.07.2012: Предварительное заключение экспертов Росгидромета (Ситуационного центра и Краснодарского ЦГМС) о причине катастрофического паводка в Крымском районе Краснодарского края, quote: "Однако по предварительному заключению специалистов Ситуационного центра Росгидромета и ФГБУ “Краснодарский ЦГМС”, спуск воды из Неберджаевского водохранилища невозможен технологически. Плотина является насыпной, сплошной, и никаких шлюзов в ней нет. Для слива воды предусмотрен шахтный водосброс." `a5b (talk) 19:26, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

my translation --- 09.07.2012: Preliminary report of Hydromet (Situation Centre and the Krasnodar ЦГМС=Center for Hydrometeorology and Environmental Monitoring) experts, about the cause of the catastrophic floods in the Krymsk region of Krasnodarsky Krai]: quote - "However, in the preliminary conclusion of Roshydromet's Situation Centre and Krasnodar ЦГМС, the descent of water from the Neverdjayevskiy reservoir is technologically impossible. Dam is a bulk, solid and there are no locks in it. To drain the water there is provided mine (shaft) type water discharge." `a5b (talk) 19:26, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

One more, from reservoir owner [3]: "Данное гидротехническое сооружение имеет свои особенности – в его состав не входят шлюзы, затворы и иное механическое оборудование, которое возможно регулировать", -- "This hydrological facility /Neberdzhaevsky reservoir/ has some properties: It does not include locks, gates and other mechanical equipment, which can be adjusted /controlled/" `a5b (talk) 23:52, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Quick round up of news

Some bits that don't seem to have made it into the article - not got time yet myself, so here are some news articles, and some stuff they say that is not covered in the current page.

Grain (wheat + more) harvest export route damaged, stock piles still high, port reopened sunday but delays may kick in if the rail route is not restored before stockpile run out.Reuters

flooding was expected but warning was not given in time, putin demands in BBC article which also says 'Mr Puchkov said "there were no factors to cause any rapid rise in water levels in the reservoir", adding that he had inspected the sluice gates.'

flood was expected at 10pm but no warning before flood arrived Sydney Morning Herald also quote "Federal authorities have since acknowledged that failing to warn residents was a major mistake, and the head of the region, Vasily Krutko, has been dismissed." — Preceding unsigned comment added by EdwardLane (talk • contribs)

I have added the BBC article as an additional source in the "Response" section which discusses early knowledge and ineffective warnings. Sydney Morning Herald is a reprint of The New York Times article already used as a source. User:Fred Bauder Talk 12:33, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

There were multiple warnings issued by Russian EMERCOM (MChS) and Hydrometeorological Centre of Russia (Росгидромет) from 3 to 6 July. 6 July, after midday there was storm warning and Emergency was declared in Novorossiysk. But what was failed: effect of rains was underestimated; people in Krymsk was not warned in time. `a5b (talk) 15:44, 12 July 2012 (UTC)