Talk:1997 Luxembourg Grand Prix

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 16:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Discovery of McLaren rear-wheel braking

McLaren had developed a rear-wheel braking system, which involved an extra brake pedal in the cockpit. The system was exposed when photographer Darren Heath took photos of the McLarens after they retired from the race. Should this be listed in this page, the 1997 Formula One season page, or the McLaren MP4-12C page? Asd36f (talk) 12:15, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

You could certainly add the information into this article and probably the 1997 season page as well. It's already included at McLaren MP4/12 (and on Darren Heath's page). DH85868993 (talk) 12:28, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Irrelevant waffle?

With the very greatest of respect... why is it irrelevant that this race took place on the same day as Häkkinen's 29th birthday, and that Ralf Schumacher caused a collision that also involved *his brother* Michael?

AFAIK, it doesn't happen all that often that an F1 race takes place on the same day as the birthday of one of the drivers taking part, *and* that driver plays a prominent role in the race too (most obvious example: Alesi winning the 1995 Canadian Grand Prix on his 31st birthday). And it doesn't happen all that often, either, that brothers take part in an F1 race *and* they're jointly involved in one of the key moments of the race (obviously, the Schumachers raced alongside each other for a decade, but I cannot recall another race in which one of them inadvertently and indirectly took the other out).

Perhaps if Häkkinen had qualified well down the grid, drove a conservative race and finished outside the top six and at least one lap down, *then* it wouldn't be all that relevant that this race fell on his birthday, because he wouldn't have played a big part in the race at all (and the same with Alesi in Canada in '95 if *he* hadn't qualified well, hardly overtook anyone and finished outside the top six). And the Schumachers being brothers certainly wouldn't be all that relevant if they had driven their own races and stayed out of each other's way (e.g. if Michael had won and Ralf had finished fourth or fifth, on the lead lap but a minute behind).

In any case, I can think of several things that are far more irrelevant and trivial regarding this race - like Diniz being the highest finisher on Bridgestone tyres and not with a Renault engine, Katayama qualifying at least a second slower than anyone else, Villeneuve's hair being bleached blond...

As ever with these discussions, it's not a bad idea to invite a few other users into it to offer *their* views, if of course they want to. So @DH85868993, A7V2, and MWright96: you're all perfectly welcome to participate if you so desire. :)

2A02:8084:F1BE:9180:3524:56B0:2B11:3F38 (talk) 21:02, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

It's irrelevant waffle because these facts have no bearing on anything. Co-incidence (which is what these statements are) does not make for encylopedic content, not matter how big of a co-incidence it is. It taking place on Häkkinen's birthday didn't give him a special advantage, and there is no evidence that Michael and Ralf being brothers had any impact on the race, or their responses to the accident. Villeneuve's hair being bleached blond should be removed as well, for the same reason.

Diniz being the highest finisher on Bridgestone tyres and not with a Renault engine, Katayama qualifying at least a second slower than anyone else aren't irrelevant, whether they are not worthy is a different question. Also note that WP:OTHERCONTENT applies to that arguement. SSSB (talk) 08:38, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

@SSSB: you know, it was a coincidence too that Canada '95 took place on Alesi's 31st birthday (and, indeed, he only won it after Michael Schumacher hit trouble late on).

If you feel that mention of Häkkinen's birthday in this article is not encyclopedic, then - with the greatest of respect - you ought to have similar feelings for mention of Alesi's birthday in the Canada '95 article. It's all or nothing here, IMO.

"There is no evidence that Michael and Ralf being brothers had any impact on the race." Well, duh... and nor is there any evidence that Ralf and Fisichella being teammates had any impact on the race.

It just so happened that Ralf *inadvertently* caused an accident that involved both his teammate and his brother. He had no intentions of taking them, himself and Katayama out; all he wanted to do here was make the best start he could.

And if it *can* be mentioned in this particular part of the article that Fisichella was Ralf's teammate, then why can't it also be mentioned in this particular part of the article that Michael was Ralf's brother? Again, all or nothing here IMO.

"Villeneuve's hair being bleached blond should be removed as well, for the same reason." ...You do realise, don't you, that that wasn't even in the article in the first place?

I only brought it up here as one of the things that I thought were more irrelevant and trivial than the race taking place on Häkkinen's birthday, and Michael and Ralf being brothers (it *is* possible, IMO, for one thing to be more irrelevant and trivial than another - no all or nothing here). I can only apologise if I gave the impression that it was in the article to begin with (and the same with the trivia regarding Diniz's tyres and engine, and Katayama's qualifying time).

"Diniz being the highest finisher on Bridgestone tyres and not with a Renault engine, Katayama qualifying at least a second slower than anyone else aren't irrelevant, whether they are not worthy is a different question."

Every Wikipedia article is supposed to appeal to casual readers first and foremost, right? F1 fans may be interested in the fact that Diniz was the highest finisher both on Bridgestone tyres and with an engine other than Renault, and that Katayama's qualifying time was over a second slower than anyone else's (while still within 107% of the pole time)... but will casual readers be interested in these things, or could it put them off reading F1 race articles? (See WP:FANCRUFT.)

In any case, one only has to look at the race classification table to work out who the highest finisher was on a particular brand of tyre (when there was more than one, of course) and with a particular brand of engine, or an engine other than a particular brand. And one can find out if one driver fared noticeably worse in qualifying than everyone else (while still qualifying for the race) simply by looking at the qualifying classification table.

Granted, it's possible that casual readers might not be tremendously interested either in the fact that this race took place on Häkkinen's birthday (or, for that matter, the fact that Canada '95 took place on Alesi's birthday). But in addition to arguing that there are more irrelevant and trivial things like what colour Villeneuve's hair was (regardless whether or not these things are in the article to begin with), I'd also argue that there's less of a case to be made for things like birthdays constituting F1 fancruft than there is for things like who the highest finisher was on this brand of tyre, that brand of engine etc. constituting F1 fancruft.

I absolutely accept that not everyone has the same views as I do - and I'm well prepared to change my views if I'm sufficiently convinced (no disrespect intended whatsoever, but I've come across too many intransigent individuals for my liking - both on the Internet and in real life). Again, I welcome the views of other users, if they want to offer them. :)

2A02:8084:F1BE:9180:447:25DC:C130:4DC7 (talk) 18:20, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

you ought to have similar feelings for mention of Alesi's birthday in the Canada '95 article. - I do, I just wasn't aware of it until you brought it up. I'll remove it once this discussion has concluded (assuming it concludes in my favour).

nor is there any evidence that Ralf and Fisichella being teammates had any impact on the race. - no, but specifing the team that retires drove does. This article choses to identify Fisichella and Ralf as being teammates to avoid "Jordan" being repeated unnecessarly. Also, their being tammates is significantly less trivial, as both Jordans were out on the first lap. Ralf and Micheal being brother, and Fisichella and Ralf being team-mates isn't quite apples and oranges, but maybe closer oranges and lemons (both being citrus fruits, but different ones).

...but will casual readers be interested in these things, or could it put them off reading F1 race articles?... - it isn't about being WP:INTERESTING, it is about being notable. I'm not suggesting that they should be included, but comparing those to Hak's birthday is apples and oranges, because the statements about Diniz and Katayama are at least about the event, not just the date it happened to fall on, or the relationships between individuals.

I'd also argue that there's less of a case to be made for things like birthdays constituting F1 fancruft than there is for things like who the highest finisher was on this brand of tyre, that brand of engine etc. constituting F1 fancruft. - this is the problem - I have exactly the opposite opinion. But again that doesn't necessarily mean that I would support their inclusion (I'd have to do more research first, into whether it is considered suffiecently notable). SSSB (talk) 14:11, 9 December 2021 (UTC)