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Ceremonial county infoboxes

I'd raise this at Template:Infobox English county, but it doesn't have a very active talk section so the response here will likely be better.

Recently (as some of you will have noticed) I've been editing the ceremonial county leads, and I've come to think that the infobox contains more fields than necessary, including some which muddly the already pretty grimy waters between ceremonial counties and the other types. While I'm not an expert in how templates are constructed, I hope I know enough to make some suggestions. First, I'd like to propose removing the following:

• Time zone: United Kingdom is the most appropriate place to give the country's time zone, surely?
• Nickname and alt, which official_name and other_name seem to cover.
• Flag_image: Ceremonial counties, strictly speaking, don't have flags. The flags registered with the flag institute represent the historic counties, and any heraldic flags belong to the council in question rather than the county-at-large. Where a ceremonial county significantly overlaps with an historic one the historic county flag is better placed in the article body.
• Arms_image and motto: Similar to flags, coats of arms belong to the councils which govern a county rather than the county-at-large, and are best placed in the articles for those councils.
• Mayor_office and mayor_name. To my knowledge the ceremonial counties don't have mayors. I did check Bristol, but it currently uses the settlement infobox instead.
• Established by, preceded by, and origin. established_date seems to do the job.
• All parameters related to local government except county_council and unitary_council1(2, 3...). Councils should have their own main articles with infoboxes, so all the ceremonial county infobox needs is a link to that article. To that end, county_council should be renamed 'non-metropolitan county' and be made a regular parameter rather than automatically creating fields such as 'executive' and 'area'
• Either largest_town or largest_city, renaming the survivor 'largest_settlement'
• population_council and density_council, which in visual editor mode don't appear to do anything.

Some other points:

• should ethnicity stay when other demographic statistics aren't in the infobox? I'd argue no, but if it does stay then the parameters for ethnic groups need renaming to their full names rather than letters.
• We have MP, MPs, and Police, but not 'Fire_and_Rescue' or similar. I think adding at least the latter parameter would be worthwhile.
• Would adding an 'historic_counties' parameter help or hinder people's understanding of the counties and local government? My instinct is that it would be helpful, but I'm not sure.
• Would a 'demonym' parameter be used? Some counties don't have well-defined ones, so probably not.
• I must admit that I'm not quite sure what areas iso_code, ons_code, gss_code, and nuts_code apply to, although I don't think they all apply to ceremonial counties. We might want to sort that out.

I've flung a lot out there for discussion, so good luck wading through it and I look forward to your suggestions and comments! A.D.Hope (talk) 21:12, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Keep the flag / coat of arms in the infobox. I don't agree with what you have done at Somerset, for example, where the flag is associated with the county, not the council(s). 10mmsocket (talk) 21:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

The flag isn't associated with the ceremonial county of Somerset, but with the historic county. They're different things and I'm keen to keep the distinction clear. Ceremonial counties don't have coats of arms, and the arms sometimes seen in their infoboxes are usually the arms of one of the councils contained within the county. It's misleading to use them to represent the ceremonial county. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

The flag of Somerset is a modern creation. It was only created in 2015 and was independent of the then county council. I don't think that makes it historic. 10mmsocket (talk) 22:21, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from, but the UK county flags registered with the Flag Institute represent the historic counties, not the ceremonial ones — that's why the list includes Middlesex but excludes all the metropolitan counties and Cumbria. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:32, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

TBH I think that's nit picking. There is one article on Wikipedia about the county of Somerset. Whether its primary topic is the historic or ceremonial county is a distinction that will be of interest to very few people. It is an article about Somerset. The flag, which the people of Somerset voted for (encouraged by the Lord Lieutenant of Somerset) in 2015, is the only flag of Somerset. People when they voted didn't ask "Which version of Somerset am I voting for a flag?" The flag of Somerset belongs in the infobox of the article about Somerset. It's that simple. 10mmsocket (talk) 06:23, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

The issue is obscured by the fact this discussion is centred on Somerset, where the ceremonial and historic boundaries closely align. This isn't the case in a large number of counties, so we shouldn't adopt an approach of conflating the two types of county when it comes to flags in infoboxes. Consider Cumbria, which was historically part of Cumberland, Westmorland, Lancashire, and Yorkshire, three of which have historic county articles. Which of the four flags should go in the ceremonial county infobox?

In the Somerset article I didn't remove the flag, but moved it to the 'History' section with a caption explaining that it's the flag of the historic county. I think that's a good solution — in ceremonial county articles where the historic and ceremonial counties align the flag can be placed in the body, and in articles where they don't no flag(s) need to be used. A.D.Hope (talk) 08:45, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Again, I see no reason why the Somerset flag should not be in the Somerset infobox. Ditto Lancashire - there isn't another Lancashire article. Yorkshire has the flag. To be honest I think you are creating issues that only you see as an issue. I simply don't agree with you. 10mmsocket (talk) 09:05, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

This is indeed an issue. The flag represents the historic county and is registered as so. You have another example where the Berkshire page infobox says ceremonial county at the top, includes a map of the ceremonial county, then misleadingly has a flag of the historic county. This is simply inaccurate. The same applies to any other county which uses the historic county flag on the infobox but primarily describes anything other than the historic county. You cannot simply cherry pick which parts of historic counties (such as flags) exist, if the county page describes a different sort of county. I think the historic county flags should be removed if the pages do not clearly state the flag represents the respective historic county. Acapital (talk) 09:17, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

The Somerset flag should not be in the Somerset infobox because the infobox is about the ceremonial county and the flag represents the historic county. The two shouldn't be conflated, as although the they align in Somerset's case doing the same in other counties causes problems, and we need consistency across the county articles. The ceremonial county of Lancashire, for example, has significantly different boundaries to the historic county represented by the flag. A.D.Hope (talk) 09:25, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

MOS:INFOBOXFLAG says no flags in infoboxes. Problem solved. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 13:40, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Not to nitpick, but that section is about flag icons (the type you see in battle infoboxes) rather than flags per se. A.D.Hope (talk) 13:49, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

One of my favourites! (And yes it's mostly about flag icons). Funnily enough I've just reverted a whole rash of them added by 24may1819 (talk · contribs) 10mmsocket (talk) 15:48, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @A.D.Hope and @10mmsocket - I was not aware of this. Makes complete sense.. 24may1819 (talk) 16:01, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

In general what you are doing is a good thing so please keep it up! Thanks for your contributions. 10mmsocket (talk) 16:03, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with 10mmsocket. Placing the flag in the "History" section is misleading as it's not historical – it's clearly current and the fact that the paperwork says it's been retrospectively pinned on the historical county is minor and can be easily explained in a footnote. XAM2175 ^(T) 18:32, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you on the 'History' section, but placing the flag in the infobox is also misleading as it represents the ceremonial county and the flags represent the historic counties. Some county articles have 'Symbols' sections, so perhaps that would be an appropriate place for their flags. A.D.Hope (talk) 18:38, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but as already noted by 10mmsocket, that difference is very very minor for counties with matching boundaries, so just footnote it in the infobox. For counties where the boundaries do significantly differ, only then distribute the flags to body sections or other articles as relevant. XAM2175 ^(T) 18:50, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

That would still visually conflate ceremonial and historic counties, which we shouldn't be doing. I'd prefer a consistent approach of putting the flags in the body, which also gives greater scope to contextualise them. I suspect an inconsistent approach could also be unstable — only today I noticed that another editor had removed the flag from Berkshire's infobox.

Incidentally, by my count only 13 of the 48 ceremonial counties are close enough to their historic boundaries that putting the flag in the infobox could be uncontroversial: Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Wiltshire, Norfolk, Suffolk, Rutland, Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, Shropshire, Herefordshire, and Gloucestershire. All the rest have quite differences.

I'm well aware this seems pedantic, but as part of a wider approach to make the differences between the counties clear I do think it's important. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Your approach to the matter is adding more confusion. Either the historic county flag should be retained, or removed, from all the infoboxes for any county pages other than those specifically written for historic counties. There should be none of this “if the boundaries closely match” nonsense. This simply adds subjectivity to the matter, and will lead to some users adding/removing county flags depending on which way they see fit. The whole flag discussion here is centred on the issue that flags are registered to represent historic counties, yet most county pages are not written for historic counties. Hence, please apply this consistently. As you have already kindly removed the Oxfordshire flag from the ceremonial county of Oxfordshire infobox, I have done the same for the Berkshire flag. This is to keep consistency to a policy that you have made. Now if you have the time, I would recommend you should apply your suggested policy to all the other ceremonial county pages for the rest of the English counties and continue removing incorrectly placed historic county flags. Acapital (talk) 22:06, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm slightly confused, as you've said my approach is causing confusion but we agree that the flags shouldn't be in the infoboxes. I had removed some flags from infoboxes, but stopped as this discussion got going to avoid making what could be perceived as biased edits. I'm waiting on the outcome to learn how to proceed. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:19, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

In that case, to avoid causing more confusion, can you please wait until you have your outcome to learn how to proceed, and then apply this to every single ceremonial county page. The ceremonial county infoboxes should either include, or exclude, the historic county flag. No grey area. Acapital (talk) 22:24, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Would you like to help? There are 48 ceremonial counties, after all. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:46, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I do agree with you that the historic county flag should not be in an infobox that describes anything other than the historic county (in this case, the ceremonial counties). But the same policy needs to be applied consistently to every single county and not just some. Acapital (talk) 22:36, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Coming back to the original questions:

First, I wouldn't start from infobox settlement as it has too much irrelevant detail. Can you start again from infobox UK place?

• Time zone: a good example of totally irrelevant detail. Nowhere in the UK has a timezone other than UTC+00:00 (Gibraltar and the sovereign bases are not in the UK). Lose completely
• Nickname and alt: are these are US terms (or do we allow "God's own county" for Yorkshire?
• Flag_image: Ceremonial counties, strictly speaking, don't have flags. So what allows you to invent same? Discard.
• Arms_image and motto: see flags
• Mayor_office and mayor_name. ... ceremonial counties don't have mayors. But they do have Lords Lieutenant and High Sheriffs, which should be shown.
• Established by, preceded by, and origin. established_date seems to do the job. Yes, grave danger of OR/SYNTH to do any more.
• All parameters related to local government : I agree with your proposal
• Either largest_town or largest_city, renaming the survivor 'largest_settlement'. Agree
• population_council and density_council irrelevant.
• * should ethnicity stay when other demographic statistics aren't in the infobox? No, discard it. A US obsession.
• * MP, Police, Fire: how well do these align with CC boundaries? Btw, I suggest "Parliamentary constituencies" rather than named MPs. WP:CFORK and maintenance concern.
• *Historic county: a total minefield. There are so many ifs and buts that make it impossible to state succinctly – which is an essential characteristic of infobox cintent

I hope that helps. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:04, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for weighing in, I appreciate it's a lot to go through. Would you mind clarifying your position on flags and coats of arms — I'm guessing from your earlier comment you'd get rid of those fields, but I'm not quite sure.

On historic counties, my thinking is that it would allow counties such as Tyne and Wear to list Northumberland and Durham in their infobox and therefore make the ceremonial/historic distinction clearer. There always seems to be potential for wrangling with the historic counties, though. A.D.Hope (talk) 16:47, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

On flags and CoAs, the CCs simply don't have them.

• Take Bedfordshire for example: it has three UAs, none (fortunately) called Bedfordshire. What do you use? The former county council? Why? (without violating SYNTH and OR?)
• Buckinghamshire has two UAs. One (with about 80% of the area and 60% of population at a wild guess) has appropriated the CoA and flag of the old county council. So what do you use?
• Tyne and Wear: no CoA or flag for the CC, only the local authority.
• Etc. Etc. So it becomes an exercise in making something up because the template demands it, not because it is accurate or even true.
• Historic counties: which version of the HC? We have pages of archive down that rabbit hole already.

So no. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 07:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

But there are clear examples where flags are directly associated with the county (whether it be historic or ceremonial), e.g the previously mentioned Somerset where the flag which was created in 2015 was advocated by the Lord Lieutenant. Surely then the flag is directly associated with the same version of county as the Lord Lieutentant is, thus if he/she is in the infobox, so is the flag. I do agree though that if there is no clear flag then don't force something in there. 10mmsocket (talk) 07:35, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

It's a tricky one. The Somerset County Gazette, which organised the flag competiton, describes it as the flag for 'the area represented by the ancient county of Somerset', but the original competition rules state that anyone born in 'the areas administered by Somerset County Council, Bath & North East Somerset and North Somerset', i.e. the ceremonial county, could enter. The Flag Institute considers it to be the historic county flag.

For the record I do like flags in ceremonial county infoboxes, they brighten the place up, and in a logical world England would have nice, neat counties with a well-designed flag for each. I just don't think we'll find the sources to back up the claim that the current flags represent the ceremonial counties as well as the historic ones, so they should be in the article body instead. A.D.Hope (talk) 09:44, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Somerset article is about ceremonial county not historic county (even though the borders for both are virtually the same) No reason as I see it that the flag shouldn't be there. 10mmsocket (talk) 13:53, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Me neither, just in the body rather than the infobox. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:09, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

MOS:IMAGES says (in summary) images in articles are to illustrate, not to decorate (or "brighten the place up"). So that would be another policy vio. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:30, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Don't worry, I do think the flags also serve an illustrative purpose as distinctive symbols of an area. A.D.Hope (talk) 16:38, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Do we have any evidence that that Somerset flag is widely adopted or in use? Flag of Somerset describes the campaigning involvement of Association of British Counties which promotes historic counties; our use of it would further their aims. There was a local newspaper competition which won its sponsors the Marketing and Promotion prize in the Sedgemoor Business Excellence Awards [1]; I can see the winner reported[2] but not how many voted for it, or at all, and neither "no flag" nor "meh" seem to have been on the ballot.[3] Does it really have sufficient standing to be in the infobox? NebY (talk) 17:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I did notice this when I was looking for information on the flag earlier:

"A FLAG-MAKER from Somerset says the launch of the county’s new yellow and red design earlier this year is the most successful he has ever been involved with. Robin Ashburner, of Specialist Flag Services, has so far produced about 400 flags for individuals and businesses to fly across the county. Mr Ashburner said: “It has been successful – this is down to most of the flags being made and distributed locally."

A.D.Hope (talk) 17:35, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

The Somerset Gazette did get a lot of mileage out of their competition! Robin Ashburner was also chair of the competition's judging panel and a past president and honorary vice-president of the Flag Institute. NebY (talk) 17:55, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Can't believe Big Vexillology was behind this all along A.D.Hope (talk) 17:59, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Twelve-part podcast coming soon. :) NebY (talk) 18:04, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

This issue is somewhat moot since our own policy says that we treat counties as single entities which have changed over time, i.e. wkilipedia makes no distinction between "historic" and ceremonial etc counties. G-13114 (talk) 21:41, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

We do make a distinction between historic and ceremonial counties, but the official project position is that the historic counties no longer exist. That's not a particularly helpful when our source is a body which does consider them to exist, as with these flags. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:10, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

There is no consistency with the application of this policy, though. For instance, the Yorkshire page states that Yorkshire is a historic county which exists, and currently shows a map of the historic county boundaries, and correctly shows the historic county flag. Acapital (talk) 23:42, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it's a bad policy because it takes an absolute position on something about which editors are divided. What I can say with confidence is that a ceremonial county is not an historic county, so a flag representing an historic county shouldn't be in a ceremonial county's infobox. A.D.Hope (talk) 00:39, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Historic counties do not exist. There is only one Somerset, a county that has changed boundaries and roles over time. The term 'historic county' refers to Somerset as it was in the middle of the 19th century. That means it is perfectly acceptable to have only one article about Somerset. Somerset is no different from a country, say Germany for example. Germany has changed borders numerous times. It even existed in bits before 1871 with various princes in charge of the bits, but it was still Germany. Consider the flag of Germany in 1900 - would it be appropriate to have that flag in the infobox of Germany? Of course not. Same with counties - these various flags mean nothing because they are a contemporary creation to represent something in the past which is anachronistic. That is based on wikipedia guidelines on counties, so we should follow it. There is a lot of text in county articles that treats counties as more than one thing which is wrong and causes confusion. About the flag, some counties do have flags that were used in the past, such as the white horse of Kent, making them more suitable for inclusion to represent the county today. (This post is not intended to be mischief making - I think it is correct based on WP guidelines. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 23:21, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

This recent edit which removed the flag from the infobox from County Durham added to my belief that the county flags will be a recurring issue if they remain in the infoboxes, so I've gone through each article and moved the flags into the body where necessary. I've already explained the other reasons why I think this is the correct decision, so I won't do so again. A.D.Hope (talk) 16:47, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

The ceremonial county of Somerset, which is the subject of the article, was the county (through support of the Lord Lieutenant of Somerset that commissioned the flag. It is a recent flag that has absolutely nothing to do with the historic county and everything to do with the ceremonial county. Whatever the status of other flags might be Somerset flag deserves to be in the infobox. 10mmsocket (talk) 16:57, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

The flag was commissioned to represent the 'ancient county' and is registered with the Flag Institute, which only registers flags for the historic counties. Like all the other flags, Somerset's therefore represents the historic county and should not be in the infobox, which is about the ceremonial county. To be honest I don't see why the flag being in the body is such a bad thing. A.D.Hope (talk) 17:00, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Where is your source to show that the flag was commissioned to represent the historic county, when it was an official of the ceremonial county, the Lord Lieutenant, who pushed for it? The ceremonial county is what is currently is in existence and it is the ceremonial county that commissioned the flag. There is no historic county in existence - it's just that, historic. 10mmsocket (talk) 17:04, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

The flag was created through a competition run by the Somerset Gazette, which described it as representing the 'ancient county'. I'm not surprised the Lord Lieutenant supported the competition, as that's the sort of thing Lords-Lieutenant do, but that's quite a filmsy argument for the flag representing the ceremonial county.

If we're being strict then yes, this project does not recognise the historic counties as continuing to exist and so arguably shouldn't use their flags in the ceremonial county articles. Putting the flags in an appropriate part of the body seems like a reasonable compromise, though. A.D.Hope (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Once again, the historic county doesn't exist any more. The ceremonial county does exist and it has a Lord Lieutenant and High Sheriff. The former promoted the creation of a flag for the county. It clearly wouldn't have been for the historic county, it was the for extant ceremonial county. The flag very definitely belongs in the ceremonial county infobox. 10mmsocket (talk) 15:29, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, it's a vicious cycle isn't it? This project holds that the historic counties don't exist, but our main source for the county flags holds that they do (and won't even register flags for several ceremonial counties as they're not historic). Something has to give, and I think the best compromise is to put the county flags in the body. A.D.Hope (talk) 15:55, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Getting confusing now as we're having the same discussion in two separate sections. I don' think there is a one size fits all solution. I'd suggest that if it is clear that the flag existed before the ceremonial county existed then I'm happy to concede that there is an argument for not having the flag in the ceremonial county article's infobox. However, where the flag is a creation *since* the establishment of the ceremonial county, e.g. in Somerset, then it very much belongs there. Of course I'd still prefer flags for counties in every county infobox but that's unlikely to get consensus! 10mmsocket (talk) 16:58, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

County flags are registered with the Flag Institute to represent historic counties, as another user has correctly stated with references. High Sheriffs and Lieutenants for ceremonial counties commonly support the creation of county flags, but that doesn’t mean they are created for the ceremonial counties, although their ceremonial county may share the name of the respective parent historic county. Therefore, as the other user has pointed out, it is incorrect and inaccurate to place historic county flags in the infobox for ceremonial counties. Simple! Acapital (talk) 17:04, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

At this point I think we have to look at what the sources say. On the historic side there's the Flag Institute, with which the flag is registered and which only recognises the historic counties, and the Somerset County Gazette, which ran the competition that led to the flag's registration and describes it as representing the 'ancient county'. I just don't know what there is on the ceremonial side. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:10, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Totally agree, Wikipedia makes a bit of a mess of the counties! What makes it worse, is a situation like this where some users choose to cherry pick which parts of historic counties exist, and which they believe do not exist! Registered county flags represent the historic county. Acapital (talk) 17:06, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Adding copied text from another relevent discussion at A.D.Hope concerning the County of Suffolk below:- Edmund Patrick – confer 15:16, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

So, the crux of the issue is that the ceremonial and historic counties are different things. The ceremonial counties are used for appointing lord-lieutenants and are ultimately based on the counties established in 1974. Although their function is pretty minor we use them as the 'base' for county articles because they're pretty stable in comparison to other types of county — the non-metropolitan counties are altered pretty regularly, for example. The historic counties are essentially the counties as they stood before the major changes in 1889, 1965, and 1974 (take your pick).

The source for most county flags is the Flag Institute, which recognises historic county flags rather than ceremonial county flags. Since the county article infoboxes are about the ceremonial county they therefore shouldn't contain flags which represent the historic counties. Consider also that, while Suffolk's historic and ceremonial boundaries are very similar, this isn't the case for most counties — just look at Lancashire. A.D.Hope (talk) 15:44, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Suffolk.

put Suffolk into wiki search engine and this article comes up. The flag is both historical and current for the county and as such needs to be there. How do you separate ceremonial and historical? Edmund Patrick – confer 14:21, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

@Edmund Patrick I suggest you continue this discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_geography#c-A.D.Hope-20230709170900-10mmsocket-20230709170400, where I for example fully agree with what you are saying (although it's Somerset in my case). 10mmsocket (talk) 14:28, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Are you watching my talk page, 10mmsocket? From my end it looks a bit odd that you haven't replied to my last comment at UK Geography but responded to this topic within seven minutes. A.D.Hope (talk) 14:59, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

As 10mmsocket says, if you wouldn't mind raising this at the UK Geography discussion that would be easier. It keeps the discussion in one place, that's all. A.D.Hope (talk) 15:00, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you both, will do. Edmund Patrick – confer 15:08, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Text copy ENDS. Edmund Patrick – confer 15:16, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I am with you 100%. The current ceremonial counties have flags. Whether those were also associate with the one-time historic counties is irrelevant. Wikipedia articles about ceremonial counties which have flags should have the flags in the infobox. 10mmsocket (talk) 15:31, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Discussion part 2

Does anyone have any further comment on the infobox parameters? Besides flags, which are an unresolved issue, I'm keen to implement the remainder of the changes if there are no objections.

@10mmsocket, Acapital, John Maynard Friedman, XAM2175, NebY, Roger 8 Roger, Edmund Patrick, Thryduulf, Rupples, PamD, EdwardUK, Esemgee, Waggers, DragonofBatley, Waggers, and Murgatroyd49: (apologies if I've missed anyone) A.D.Hope (talk) 10:22, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope I'm not involved in discussions about historic counties etc, but does this also refer to the discussion below about images/collages? PamD 10:26, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

No, not really. This discussion is primarily about the parameters of Template:Infobox English county rather than the information contained within those parameters. If anyone does want to contribute to the discussion below they're welcome to, however. A.D.Hope (talk) 10:31, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope:, could you summarise the changes you do propose to make now, please? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 10:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

All of the ones originally listed with the exception of removing 'flag_image' and adding 'historic_county'. In addition, you raised the appropriateness of including police and ambulance and this hasn't been fully discussed yet. A.D.Hope (talk) 10:56, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The historic county flags should not appear in the ceremonial county infoboxes. Whether some users like it or not, the fact is that the registered county flags are purely representing historic counties. The flag institute clearly states the Somerset flag represents the historic county, just as it consistently does for all other counties. Acapital (talk) 10:49, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The flag issue has dominated the discussion and meant that my original proposal has been sidelined, so if you don't mind I'd like to ignore it for now and focus on the rest of the parameters. A.D.Hope (talk) 10:57, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

agreed, a break from this flag discussion may assist in sorting it out, fresh minds to it at some point. Ta Edmund Patrick – confer 14:51, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The changes seem reasonable. No objections having just read through the discussion. Some thoughts.

• The Parliamentary constituencies rather than MP names is a good idea, likely less changes to update.
• The ONS/GNSS codes ONS coding system seem to be the same thing, therefore one should go. Question whether any of these codes are necessary and how many readers would find them of use. Clutter?
• Time zone - not necessary.
• Flags/coat of arms - seems the most contentious issue therefore probably better to omit and place elsewhere in the article - infobox data should be limited to incontrovertible facts.
• Ethnicity - imperative to have inline sourcing if retained, some don't of those I've checked.

Rupples (talk) 15:37, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Obvious American preoccupations like time zone and ethnicity should definitely go. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:41, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Presumably, some Americans read these county articles. We're catering for an international readership, are we not? Rupples (talk) 18:03, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

It's not how I'd express it, but what I believe JMF means is that there's little point in having the time zone in UK county infoboxes as, overseas territories aside, the country only occupies one time zone.

I wouldn't retain ethnicity either, but because it doesn't make sense to single out one demographic statistic rather than because it's an American concept. A.D.Hope (talk) 18:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree with that point. By all means have it in the body of the article but not the infobox Murgatroyd49 (talk) 18:33, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm close to burn out on counties so I won't be able to give any useful comment, except... all the countless disputes can be narrowed down to "Do historic counties currently exist as extant entities. yes or no?" My view is that they do, even if without any formal role. Others disagree. There will not be a resolution to the infobox problem until consensus is reached on HCs' current existence, or lack thereof. In general, I am wary of adding things to an infobox beyond the bare minimum. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 19:41, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Template:Infobox U.S. county, perhaps the nearest US equivalent doesn't have ethnicity as one of its fields. Can't be certain but a quick review of the template's history didn't reveal that it once had such a field, subsequently removed, so yes better left out. Rupples (talk) 20:37, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

That's interesting because the bloat comes from infobox settlement. Good to know that sanity prevails in some parts.

Also perhaps worth a mention is that the ONS doesn't report by CC, only by LA. So any stats require adding the data from each of the component LAs. Who is going to do this N times, and do it all again every ten years? The less maintenance we have to do, the better. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 22:27, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Do County Durham and North Yorks have to go down to parish level for Stockton-on-Tees? A.D.Hope (talk) 22:30, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree with User:Rupples, especially on the point about using constituency names instead of MPs. Overall on Wikipedia we need to get smarter at giving ourselves fewer things that need regular updating, especially when it comes to frequent events like elections. WaggersTALK 10:37, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

City of Colchester

There is a debate at Talk:Colchester#Yes, Colchester is a city, so let's stop all the nonsense edit wars that could use some more voices towards demonstrating consensus or lack thereof. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 19:04, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Assuming the consensus is to call Colchester a city, is it worth updating the guidelines to cover the issue? Something like:

"It is common for a district, rather than an individual settlement, to be granted city status, in which case the district will usually be named 'City of [Settlement]'. In these cases the namesake settlement should be referred to as a city provided this usage can verified by reliable sources. For example, 'Lancaster is a city within the wider City of Lancaster district'."

I'm sure that could be expressed more succinctly, but you get the gist. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:56, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Sounds useful, so we don't need to go round this loop again. PamD 07:50, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree, although the provided this usage can verified by reliable sources bit can be tricky as most sources will still refer to the settlement as a town (in cases like Colchester) until they are updated or superseded by newer sources. In Colcheter's case the newly created city council's website still referred to the settlement as a town, even when writing about the district having obtained city status. WaggersTALK 08:14, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

@Waggers:, see WP:AGEMATTERS. Any source that predates the award has ceased to be reliable in this respect. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 19:02, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, that's a really useful bit of WP:RS and makes total sense of course - and certainly changes my view. Colchester is a city! WaggersTALK 08:25, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree too but I'd put it more strongly: for legal and technical reasons, Letters Patent must be awarded to a Body Corporate, usually the Borough Council: they cannot be awarded to a settlement as such. But the clear intention is declare the settlement a city. So I'd turn ADH's proposal on jits head and say that the namesake settlement should be referred to as a city unless this usage is contradicted by reliable sources. The House of Commons Library is authoritative on this subject and this is what it says: "What makes a city?". House of Commons Library. 14 November 2022. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 19:02, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

"But the clear intention is declare the settlement a city." The bid document (in the case of Colchester) made ample reference to features in the rest of the borough (as was): what is the basis of this assertion? Of course if you start from this prejudice, you will be of the opinion that the 'town area' can be labelled a city, but this is a proposal to elevate opinion (that doesn't seem to have enough research behind it to be described as Original Research) to policy. Kevin McE (talk) 18:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

In the light of the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements, I had already realised that my assertion above was a based on a misunderstanding, but had failed to strike it. I have done so now. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:55, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Can we move this discussion to where it belongs: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements? I think it is clear that there is a consensus that we need a policy statement and don't need to take up further space on the general talk page while we hammer out the details. I will open a topic there (boldly copying contributions above). --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 19:02, 18 July 2023 (UTC)