Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Snooker/Archive 3

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Mark Williams

Resolved

I am wondering whether the Mark J. Williams article is ready to be removed from the 'Major improvements needed' section on the main page. I have done a lot of work on the article and just want to know the general concensus is. Samasnookerfan (talk) 19:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, we trust you. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 08:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Mick Price & Jason Ferguson

Unresolved

 – One article still needed.

I just discovered that there are a lot of links to Mick Price from various snooker articles, but there is no article on the snooker player. Same thing goes for Jason Ferguson. Just to let you know, cheers. Reinhardheydt (talk) 13:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Both former top 32 players who managed to reach a few Quarters I think. I'm surprised there is no articles on them but I don't know enough about them to start them myself. Samasnookerfan (talk) 13:17, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Price is probably most well known for being on the end of Ronnie O'Sullivan's fastest 147 during the 1997 World Snooker Championships. User:Oliwestham (User talk:Oliwestham) 14:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Glad it wasn't me. >;-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 08:10, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Price has an article now, at Mick Price (snooker player). There may still be links in snooker articles to the .au football player Mick Price, however. Jason Ferguson (snooker player) does not exist yet (and Jason Ferguson by itself goes to a .us football player). J.F. is listed on the project homepage in the needed bios section. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 08:10, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Improvement suggestions for World Championships?

With the WC around the corner are there any suggestions for ways we can further improve the article on this years event? Thing are much better than they were a few years ago, but I was pondering whether there were ways that we can capitalise on the increased interest and editing time that the WC brings to push the article beyond a knock-out chart. What exactly those improvements could be is open to suggestions, but the articles always feel a bit too statistical and not enough encyclo for me. SFC9394 (talk) 23:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Well said. I think having a 'Notable happenings' section gives things a bit more of a feel of what happened in the tournement, if well backed up with references then I think thats a good way of improving them. Have a look of what I wrote on 2008 Masters Snooker, in this instance someones changed the heading to 'Facts and figures', but its pretty much the same principle. I done a similar thing in the Welsh Open Snooker 2008 article, and also added all the centuries were made, well copied and pasted them from globalsnooker.co.uk! Samasnookerfan (talk) 13:26, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that is what we need more of. The crucible are a negative in not allowing pictures to be taken, but even so we can scout about to find relevent free pictures to add some colour to the article. SFC9394 (talk) 18:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, having pictures would be great. Any ideas where we could get some? Samasnookerfan (talk) 19:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The two commons acceptable Flickr CC licensed picture categories are normally a good bet: [1] & [2]. It is just normally a case of searching once the tournament is up and running for folks who have been at matches or are in and around Sheffield and are uploading pictures. SFC9394 (talk) 19:10, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge WP:SNOOKER and WP:CUE?

Resolved

 – No consensus for merge.

What do we think of the idea of merging WP:SNOOKER into WP:CUE as task force? I don't think this would affect day-to-day operations in any way at all (e.g. the snooker project tags wouldn't be deleted or anything, just modified to point to the right place), would make WP:COUNCIL happy (they prefer it if closely-related projects merge), and (why I'm proposing it) would give us a larger, merged list of participants with a centralized talk page and help keep both projects active, not tagged with {{Inactive}} nor sent to WP:MFD. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I feel WP:SNOOKER should keep its own identity, it is well established, with a reasonable number of active participants. Samasnookerfan (talk) 13:04, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

It would under my proposal; we'd just be collectively "safer", more organized and with shared tools. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 14:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

If thats the case i'm for it then. Samasnookerfan (talk) 14:59, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I think if a deletionist tags them then we can stratagise to survive - at the moment I would prefer if they were kept apart. There is plenty of snooker chatter, and it may dilute the focus of the project too much if it becomes a general market stall for a whole host of separate sports. SFC9394 (talk) 18:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Ray Reardon

The article came up at random for me there and I noticed it wasn't in your project - I take it you want the 6-time world champion ;). The article seems in a reasonably good state but only has a single source. Bazzargh (talk) 17:28, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes i'd agree, it is in a decent state. It is quite well written not too much information, and not too little. A couple more sources would be helpful though. It similar to other snooker player articles of players of his era, like John Spencer and Eddie Charlton, to name a couple. Samasnookerfan (talk) 16:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

2005 Masters Snooker

Just looking through the results and I realised that this article is in a right mess! Any help sorting it out would be helpful. Samasnookerfan (talk) 14:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I have edited it, and i think it's acceptable. Armbrust (talk) 19:51, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

How many non-ranking wins?

While I was looking at the Canadian Masters article I saw that Dennis Taylor had won the event twice, and in the infobox on his article it read that he had won only two non ranking events in his whole career, which is obviously incorrect. He has won the Masters as well as the World Trickshot Championhsip, but should the World Trickshot Championship count as a non-ranking event as it is a different skill altogether? Really each Irish Professional Championship Taylor has won should count as an individual non-ranking event as that is what has been done other articles of players who have won their national championship. So basically how many non-ranking wins should we say he has? There are similar problems about non-ranking event victories on many other snooker player articles of his era, including Terry Griffiths, Doug Mountjoy and Alex Higgins. Samasnookerfan (talk) 18:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd keep the trickshot win in there, until the infobox has a field for things like that. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Articles flagged for cleanup

Resolved

 – Project subscribed to bot service.

Currently, 283 articles are assigned to this project, of which 93, or 32.9%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 14 July 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place the following template on your project page:

{{User:WolterBot/Cleanup listing subscription|banner=WikiProject Snooker}}

If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 17:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Cool idea. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Nations Cup (snooker)

Resolved

 – DAB page updated.

Greetings. Has there ever been an article on the Nations Cup, do any of you know? Seems like it should be included at the dab page Nations Cup, and I was surprised that it was a redlink. --AndrewHowse (talk) 01:34, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Well theres no article about the tournament, it ran from the late 90s to the early 2000s I believe. Samasnookerfan (talk) 18:49, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You could make a translation of the Nations Cup page on Swedish Wikipedia /195.67.115.114 (talk) 07:42, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

The events can found at the article World Cup (snooker).

The World Snooker website has changed

The most common link from snooker player articles on here is their World Snooker profile, but unfortunately the site has changed and all the external links are defunct. So any help in changing the links would very helpful - but they now only have profiles on the current Main Tour players so many links about past professionals will simply have to be removed as they are no longer valid. Samasnookerfan (talk) 20:28, 22 August 2008 (UTC) P.S here is the changed site: World Snooker

No, don't remove them. Reformat them with {{Cite web}} and include (best practice) an accessdate= of the date at which the link was added to the article (2006-07-23, or whatever), from article history, or (sufficient practice) the date of the day before the site changed. These are still valid references, since http://www.archive.org can be used to dig them up. If you have time, add and fill out {{Waybackdate}} immediately after {{Cite web}} and before </ref>; if you don't have time, use {{Dead link}} instead of {{Waybackdate}}. PS: This is one among many reasons that I keep {{Clarifyme}} tagging the snooker articles with instructions to clean up the reference citations with {{Cite web}} all the time. Far too many snooker editors just slap a URL in there without providing a properly formatted reference citation. This results in cleanup debacles like the one we have now. If these refs had all be done properly, they could all now be fixed with a bot or a AWB session, but instead are going to have to be fixed manually, one by one, article by article. Old saying: "If you don't have time to do it correctly to start with, then when will you?" — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 00:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

But for the players who still have a profile on the World Snooker website we should remove the old urls and change them to the new ones, in the references and links, as the profile is still essentially the same and still sources the same information and it is only a minor alteration. There seems little point in having links to both the old and new profiles. I will do as you suggested for the past players, and yes adding proper references to start with is certaintly the best option. Only recently have I learnt to add proper references, and whenever I encounter references that haven't been done properly I try to improve them, but it is better to have a good source found than not at all. Samasnookerfan (talk) 18:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Right; didn't mean to imply otherwise. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 00:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Key season articles are missing

Glaring redlinks: Snooker season 1987/1988, Snooker season 1989/1990, Snooker season 1990/1991, Snooker season 1991/1992. Also, all of them from Snooker season 1982/1983 backwards, though less important than those four. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 03:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Missing event article

European Masters (snooker) (redlink from Darren Morgan) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:11, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Portal badly needs updating

In particular:

• The Snooker News section is months out of date: Portal:Snooker/Snooker news
• The Selected Article is from last year: Portal:Snooker/Selected article
• The Intro tells people what snooker is, but anyone using this portal already knows that. Something considerably more compelling and of interest to snooker fans should go in here, maybe an overview of the current season and upcoming event dates? Let's look at other portals and see what they are up to, for ideas on how to improve this: Portal:Snooker/Intro
• The Selected Bio hasn't changed in a while: Portal:Snooker/Selected biography
• The list of major articles is top-heavy with bios, and only links to two articles about snooker in general: Portal:Snooker/Snooker topics
• The category list is also pretty thin: Portal:Snooker/Categories
• The DYK section only has two items. Surely someone can think of a "fun fact" or two to put in here?: Portal:Snooker/Did you know

— SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:04, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll try and update some of the sections, and add new ones. - Nick C (talk) 18:19, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Snooker

Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection before December 2008, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 16:15, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Swiss player deleted?

I got a CfD bot notice about the deletion of Category:Swiss snooker players. That it existed at all almost certainly means that someone was in that category and then deleted. Anyone know who? I want to make sure that the stub that was probably in there wasn't salvageable. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 12:51, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Paul Hunter page!

Ive edited it! and it looks alot better! maybe add a picture or two! and add more refrences and maybe we'll have a star quality page!! Bobo6balde66 (talk) 20:53, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Event article template?

Is there some template or empty, model article on which all of the event articles such as Bahrain Championship 2008 are based? If so, where is it? It is in sore need of WP:MOS cleanup. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 17:24, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Steve Mizerak

I've deleted Category:American snooker players from Steve Mizerak, because as far as I can see he didn't play snooker, apart from a few exhibition challenge matches - unfortunately this leaves the category empty. Are there really no notable US snooker players? — sjorford++ 21:52, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Restoring the category. Mizerak was a pro competitor in snooker trick shots as well as pool trick shots, and until such time as there's a snooker subcat for trick shots, the category is appropriate. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:14, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, but a sentence or two in the article about snooker trick shots wouldn't go amiss, then. — sjorford++ 23:15, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Both Mizerak and Jim Rempe from the USA played (and lost) in the early qualifying rounds of the Embassy World Snooker Championships in the late 1980s.

Major missing organisation article

Billiards and Snooker Control Council needs an article (or section in another article; a section at World Professional Billiards and Snooker Association would be appropriate if WPBSA simply absorbed the BA&CC), and redirects should point to it from Billiards & Snooker Control Council, Billiard and Snooker Control Council, Billiard & Snooker Control Council, B&SCC, BSCC, as well as Billiards Association and Control Council (its older name), Billiards Association & Control Council, Billiard Association and Control Council, Billiard Association & Control Council, BA&CC and BACC. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Hate to sound like a broken record, but this still hasn't been fixed. I'm not in a position to fix it. Literally - I'm in the US, and it costs upwards of US$25 sometimes just to ship a book from the UK, where 99% of snooker books are, over here to Yankeeland. I can't afford the sources to cite. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 03:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Just create the page and redirect the link to the WSA page for the time being. It could be that no-one regards an article on the BA&CC as relevant, and a redirect will take care of the red link.Betty Logan (talk) 08:20, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Missing game variant article

A variant of snooker exists known as "volunteer snooker" for which rules have been published. The BA&CC published rules for it; one source that is available from Amazon.com (I do not actually have it):

• Mexborough, Earl of [actual name needed] (1957). Handbook & Rules: English Billiards, Snooker, Volunteer Snooker, Russian Pool. London, England: Billiards Association and Control Council. Front cover, and section on the game. ASIN B000UASH28. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |nopp= ignored (|no-pp= suggested) (help)

— SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:57, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Individual Tournament Templates

Example Tournament

Tournament information
Dates	Last week
Venue	My house!!
City	Somewhere over the rainbow...
Country	DeMoN's CoUnTrY
Organisation	The Magic Association
Format	Ranking-event
Total prize fund	£1,000,000
Winner's share	£999,999
Highest break	999
Defending champion	User:Alistairjh
Final
Champion	User:Alistairjh
Runner-up	User:Armbrust

Would it be possible to make a tournament template for use on tournament pages, much like this one for darts: Template:Infobox Individual Darts Tournament? - Nick C (t·c) 16:24, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I looked at the template, and copied it into here, then took out the darts stuff. If you want to add stuff, feel free - I didn't add anything Snooker specific. DeMoN2009 20:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I added this modified new template to the Welsh Open 2009 (snooker) page. How is it? Armbrust (Talk·Contributions 22:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Instead of using the full code, use the template code below to create the template on the right. DeMoN2009 17:18, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

{{Infobox Individual Snooker Tournament |tournament_name=Example Tournament |dates=Last week |venue=My house!! |location=Somewhere over the rainbow... |country=DeMoN's CoUnTrY |organisation=The Magic Association |format=Ranking-event |Total prize fund=£1,000,000 |winners_share=£999,999 |highest_break=999 |defending_champion=[[User:Alistairjh]] |winner=[[User:Alistairjh]] |runner_up=[[User:Armbrust]]}}

Thanks for all your help! That was a quick reply! - Nick C (t·c) 23:03, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Thats what we're here for! DeMoN2009 10:56, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Edited so it would acceptable for new tournaments (without a defending champion). Armbrust (talk) 19:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Coordinators' working group

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Individual snooker tournament infobox

Hi, in the articles, the highest break is listed but not the player that got the highest break. Is it possible we could include the player in this section as it is an important tournament statistic, most tournaments also have a prize for this. ZoeL (talk) 16:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. If you want, here is the list of pages with infoboxes:

• 2000 Premier League Snooker
• 2001 Premier League Snooker
• 2002 Premier League Snooker
• 2003 Premier League Snooker
• 2004 Premier League Snooker
• 2005 Premier League Snooker (2004/05)
• 2005 Premier League Snooker (2005/06)
• 2005 Pot Black
• China Open 2006 (snooker)
• 2006 Pot Black
• 2006 Premier League Snooker
• 2007 Irish Masters
• Shanghai Masters 2007
• 2007 Pot Black
• Grand Prix 2007 (snooker)
• Northern Ireland Trophy 2007
• 2007 Premier League Snooker

• 2007 UK Snooker Championship
• 2008 Masters Snooker
• 2008 Malta Cup (snooker)
• Welsh Open 2008 (snooker)
• China Open 2008 (snooker)
• World Snooker Championship 2008
• Northern Ireland Trophy 2008
• Shanghai Masters 2008
• Grand Prix 2008 (snooker)
• Bahrain Championship 2008
• 2008 UK Snooker Championship
• 2008 Premier League Snooker
• 2009 Masters Snooker
• 2008 World Series of Snooker
• Welsh Open 2009 (snooker)
• China Open 2009 (snooker)
• World Snooker Championship 2009.

Armbrust (talk) 18:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

It should be: break - (flag) (name).Armbrust (talk) 19:39, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Lists/categories of snooker tournament victors

Discussion moved here from Talk:List of world snooker champions after List of champion snooker players (formerly List of notable snooker players) was merged into List of World Snooker Champions by User:SMcCandlish, since the issue raised is broader than those articles.

I fully understand why you did it - as it was three extra names isn't enough to warrant an article but a list of everyone who has won a professional tournament might be interesting. Maybe the way to go would be just to have a category like "champion snooker player" or something, since it is not something that needs to be independently referenced? Betty Logan (talk) 07:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

A category is arguably better (though likely also problematic). I mean, who really wants to read a simple list, unless the list has some kind of intrinsic value other than sheer navigation? I think the current List of world snooker champions does, since it arranges the data in different ways (by player, by championship type, etc.) and provides some championship-related player-specific background information. A list of all pro tournament victors would be long and dry.

That said, such a category would probably need to be very specifically defined, or WP:CFD will nuke it per WP:OVERCAT. "Championship snooker player" is going to be too vague. It could be interpreted to mean anyone who has ever even been in the first round of anything that could be called a snooker championship, from WPBSA amateur events, to BCA-sanctioned competitions in 10-foot table American snooker (no article yet, but the rules have been published since the '40s, so one can be written). A category of the kind of scope you are talking about probably needs to be something like Category:Winners of professional snooker tournaments. Even that would probably get axed as insufficiently notable. Many categories like Category:Academy Award nominees (contenders as opposed to winners) have been deleted. The question that will be asked at CfD is "will anyone actually be looking for such a category?" If the answer is "probably not" then the category serves no purpose, since it won't actually aid navigation. People do look for world champions, but they don't look for pros who are marginally successful enough to remain pros, as a categorical sorting.

I take a broad view on this, as the principal organizer of WikiProject Cue sports. I had once considered creating categories like Category:Winners of professional pool championships or whatever, but the rationale has never been solid enough that I think they would survive scrutiny in CfD. I'm sure some people around here think of me as a fly in the ointment with a deletionist bent, but I'm actually a strong mergeist, based on 2005-2009 experience with the XfD processes (expecially CfD; I don't do WP:AFD very often any more) and how they can be worked around and avoided (and are often also on-target). As long as the content exists, in some form, and remains encyclopedic, we're all good. It's been good enough for the pool, carom billiards, English billiards, etc., bio articles to individually list accomplishments on them. I do think each of these disciplines needs an article similar to List of World Snooker Champions, for world champs, but I'm not sure extensive categorization by professional wins will be worth the very significant editor effort, nor the inevitable CfD fights.

We probably need to turn to WT:SPORT for more input. What are other sports doing? Is there a List of FIFA World Cup winners or a List of Wimbledon champions? Arguably there should be (and probably are, under some other names if those turn out to be redlinks); I can see many people being interested in lists like that. Is there a list or category for winners of any PGA professional golf tournament? Probably not. World champions at any notable activity are arguably inherently notable, so List of World Snooker Champions is safe. I'm not sure the same can be said of "professional sportspeople who win sometimes". Not "sucking" isn't inherently notable. :-)

The short version is, there's so much to do, I wouldn't want us to waste time and effort on elaborate lists or categories that aren't likely to survive. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 08:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not that bothered either way in truth since I'm not going to set it up. I think we're conflating the two discussions, the list was pointless as it stood so I have no problem with that going. It's not your duty to replace it with something else. However I can conceive how a list of professional snooker champions might be useful, for instance if you want an overview of a who's who of snooker and a category would serve that purpose, so I was just making the point. If someone comes along who is willing to set it up though, then I wouldn't stand in their way, but since no-one else has actually joined the discussion I don't think anyone will. Betty Logan (talk) 08:50, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Active participation seems to vary strongly with how close we are to the WC, or so it seems to me in this project. I wouldn't really worry about it. Like, that merge discussion dragged on for almost 2 years, but nothing bad happened. It just kind of languished. For all I know, as the Crucible draws near someone will come along and revert all that. <shrug> Who knows? The issue I meant to raise here was, essentially, "what do we do about this idea of a 'who's who' article?" That seems more of a project-wide discussion. If it doesn't materialize, oh well. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:24, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Something like this?

Name	WSC	Masters	UKC	GPC	BO	WO	CO	...
Stephen Hendry	7	6	5	4	4		-
Steve Davis	6	-	4	-	-	-	-
Ronnie O'Sullivan	3	4	4	1	1	2	3
Jimmy White	-	1	1	2	2	-	-

Or would this be completely unworkable? Flowerparty^☀ 09:34, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Looks good so far. How long would this be? Are we talking a section somewhere or a whole article? If the latter, could some of the other lists be merged into it? — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I guess it would either replace or complement list of snooker players by number of ranking titles. Didn't know that one existed. I was just throwing this out there, really. I think it would be more useful to have everything in one big table than to have a category of Champion snooker players where you have to click through to the individual articles to find out who's won what. The problem is the question of what to include in the table - can't really include everything because that would make it too wide. All ranking tournaments and just the major non-ranking ones? or two separate tables for ranking and non-ranking events? And the rankings only began in 1976, so I'm not sure what we'd do about everything that happened before then. Flowerparty^☀ 10:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I didn't even know this ranking winners article existed. Maybe we could just extend it to cover all players that have won just one ranking event (three seems very arbitrary - no Alex Higgins, no no John Spencer, no Thorburn, no Griffiths or Taylor) and then all the big names would be covered at least from the modern game.Betty Logan (talk) 11:56, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

We could keep it to ranking wins, yeah, that would probably be easiest. Although that would exclude the Masters. Is there an official list of these wins somewhere? The best I can find is this, which is pretty useless. If not we could compile it from Category:Snooker ranking tournaments. Flowerparty^☀ 12:32, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

By the way, what is a "minor ranking event". Should the list include Chris Small's Masters Qualifiers win? Flowerparty^☀ 12:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

A minor ranking event has a much smaller point allocation than main ranking events eg. 500 points for a win instead of 5000. There were only a few like the B&H qualifier, the Strachan Challenge etc. They're a second tier event since the top players don't compete, so I would be against including them. As for the Masters, I think all the Masters winners have won a ranking event at some point so the names would still be on the list. It can always be added in an extra column as a special case if anyone feels it's important to have it though. I doubt there's a list anywhere so they would have to be compiled from individual player records, but there probably aren't that many.Betty Logan (talk) 13:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Here it is. It's very likely I've made a mistake somewhere, but the numbers seem to add up. Flowerparty^☀ 16:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah it, looks pretty good. My only reservation is in regards to the Irish Open. It has a separate article as a separate event so maybe it should have its own column? Or maybe we should merge the European and Irish Open articles if the Irish Open was technically the European Open for that year with a redirect on the Irish Open page? At the moment it looks kind of clumsy since have we have the same column going to what looks like two separate events, so I think we should decide whether they are to be presented as the same event or separate events.Betty Logan (talk) 17:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, that would cause a problem for the Malta Grand Prix. I still think it would be better for these tournaments to have their own coulmns though since they have their own Wiki articles. I know it's a bit of a waste having a column just for one entry but at least it would consistent with the prsentation of the tournaments.Betty Logan (talk) 17:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Sure, we can split it. I was just trying to save space, and putting them all in one column seemed to make sense going on the intros for those competitions' articles, but since this requires an explanatory note it barely saves any space in the end, and it obviously confuses matters to suggest they're all the same thing. I didn't put much thought into the order of the columns, either. Would you change the order at all? Flowerparty^☀ 18:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the order is fine - I think the WC and UK should be first (which they are) and then the others so I think that's ok. It's a great job, sorry if it seemed like I was nit-picking lol. Betty Logan (talk) 18:28, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Haha not at all, I appreciate a constructive nitpicker. Thanks for your help. Flowerparty^☀ 19:16, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

CfD issue needs input

Please see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 April 13#Category:Female pool players. This is the third time this particular category has been up at CfD, as it keeps closing without consensus. This time it should close with a clear consensus, one way or the other, as it has high precedent value with regard to whether categories should be broadly gender-divided (e.g. a Category:Female snooker players). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:12, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Match scores

Hi, I posted a match score earlier for a match that was in progress and it was removed. I do not want to get into an edit war over if the scores should be there are not so would just like to ask if snooker scores should never be posted until the session is complete? Many other sports articles update scores for matches in progress. ZoeL (talk) 10:11, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

My Answer:

• If it's not the final, then only after the session is complete.
• If it's the final, then after each frame with actual frames score's.

Armbrust (talk) 11:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

The problem is sometimes editors jump the gun and update the score before the frame is finished. In finals the match can be updated frame by frame because the frame scores are included. If frame scores were included for all matches then they could be updated frame by frame, but since they don't the scores are usually updated at the end of a session. Betty Logan (talk) 22:40, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

In the case of the WSC, I don't see the problem with frame by frame updating, as long as it, of course, is recorded officially. The world snooker site has live coverage, why not wikipedia? And I especially don't see why it should be ok in the final, when it is not ok in any other match. Glaux (talk) 21:08, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

In the final it is ok, because the frame scores are included. (All other matches don't include frame scores.) Armbrust (talk) 21:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Table format

I've been converting some of the old green tables to use class wikitable, however Armbrust has reverted a bunch of my changes saying the wikitble isn't clear enough. Is there any preference here for one format or the other? For comparison: old table, wikitable. Flowerparty^☀ 13:04, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the "old table" is goog. Many ot them looks so since 3 June 2004. Armbrust (talk) 13:32, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with either table, but the table usage should be consistent. The green table tends to be the standard snooker one, but if the other is a standard table that is used across wikipedia maybe the snooker tables should conform. What exactly is the case for adopting the new table? Betty Logan (talk) 22:46, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

The wikitable format isn't new, I think it was introduced in 2005, but it is the standard format that's used everywhere on the wiki, we just never updated our pages. The argument for adopting it, then, is basically that standardisation is good - it means the look of our snooker articles will be consistent with the look of all our other articles and our tables will recognisably belong to the larger project. What use snooker project parochialism? And otherwise the wikitable just looks better, this looks like the work of an aestheticially challenged youth from 1996. The fact that the lists used this styling five years ago is irrelevant; six years ago the main page looked like this. Flowerparty^☀ 23:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't care or it is wikitable or not as long it has colours (with it are the tables clearer). Armbrust (talk) 00:23, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Stephen Hendry prize money

Seems to need adjusting conflict between page and world snooker profile. Suggest issue is of relevance as he seems to be closing in on a level of prize money at in and around £8.7 million which is near to £9 million- each time he has passed £5, 6, 7 million etc this has attracted general interest in media outside wikipedia. Each extra £1 he earns breaks his own all time record and unless the prize money in snooker is radically altered he is likely to be all time record holder for quite some time. Seems important to have an accurate record of what his actual table earnings are. --192.122.222.116 (talk) 13:28, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

There shouldn't be any conflict. Adjust it so it matches the amount on his profile.Betty Logan (talk) 15:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Well done on ITN

You're on the Main Page. Well done! :) Cue (no pun intended) lots of WTF is snookers from astounded users coming across the sport for the first time!!! [3] [4] --candle•wicke 02:42, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Nationality

An anonymous editor is going through all the player articles changing the nationalities of the players: Special:Contributions/86.17.0.3

What shall we do about it?

Betty Logan (talk) 13:44, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

He's changing English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish players to simply say "British". The main question here is, what is the consensus within the snooker wikiproject? Is it to say English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish, or is it to say British? If it's the former, a mass revert is in order. ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 14:40, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

However accuracy should be the overwhelming factor here. Consensus should look to the United Kingdom government; this shouldn’t be an issue of opinion – French people don’t get the choice of picking there nationality because of historic tradtion.

People who are born within England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland and who are entitled to citizenship are British. The state/nation these people live in is the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Just look at the UK governments website for additional clarification.

The country they, we, all live in the UK – if these people were snooker players prior to the Union several centuries ago I would agree these edits were vandalism.

The fact that accurate edits have already started to be reverted is somewhat shocking!--86.17.0.3 (talk) 14:48, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

“Snooker's governing body regards England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as four different nationalities for the purposes of players' nationalities. The snooker articles on Wikipedia reflect this. If you think it should be done differently then you should take it up at Wikipedia:WikiProject Snooker. Making the changes to just one article puts it at odds with all the other snooker player articles. Betty Logan (talk) 09:29, 5 May 2009 (UTC)”

Logan said the above however what the snooker rules say should not be a factor in the legal status of a person. Their legal status as British should be shown in the info box; just because the snooker guys class him as a Scottish player that should not be an overriding factor in suddenly making him “legally Scottish” - the UK Government has the last say when it comes to someone’s nationality and they say we are British. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.0.3 (talk) 14:56, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

The snooker governing body acknowledges England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales as the nationalities of the players rather than British. This usage reflects the usage of the snooker governing body. All the tournament articles are based on these national divisions as well. While there may be a legitimate argument for using their legal nationality it should be discussed thoroughly here first. The clear consensus up until now has been to use the WSA national identities, because using 'British' wouldn't reflect their 'professional' national identity, so any changes of this magnitude should be discussed thoroughly here first. The editor in question was advised to bring the issue here first but hasn't done, and is now going through all the articles under another ID changing the nationality of all the players. The whole article structure would have to be overhauled if we were to use the legal nationality because we have categories like "English snooker players" etc. Betty Logan (talk) 14:58, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

You will note that no changes have been made to tournament pages or to mention within the articles regarding what the snooker dudes believe. However as with all bios within the wiki the official nationality is shown - the official nationality of these people, as determined by the United Kingdom's government, is British. That key piece of information should be in their info box, the rest of the article can say what it likes to be perfectly honest.

To use an analogy, just because FIFA does the same thing with football doesn’t mean all the British players suddenly take on a new nationality - one may add, that has not official existed for a few hundred years and in the case of N.Ireland never existed in the first place.

In the end these articles are biographies of the players; this is not a snooker website. The official status should be shown over anything else.--86.17.0.3 (talk) 15:09, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

A possible solution to accuretly cover your snooker requirements and the requirements of a biography would be to edit your template or use another slot on the template to show the nationality assigned to the players via the WSA. I.e.:
| Born = info
| Birthplace = Somewhere in the UK
| Nationality = British
| Nickname = ...
| WSA nationality = English
| Professional = 2009 -

The consensus among those who created the articles and those who maintain them is to use the nationalities as recognised by their governing body. If you want propose a change you must outline your case here and get a consensus to alter the articles. Betty Logan (talk) 15:39, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Or we can make it so:

WikiProject Snooker/Archive 3

Professional	1989-2006
Highest ranking	27

Armbrust (talk) 15:47, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I think maybe we should change 'nationality' to 'playing nationality'. Betty Logan (talk) 15:52, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I made it. Armbrust (talk) 15:57, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

That's fine. There is a long-standing consensus here and in the snooker world more broadly that snooker players represent specific "countries" and that "country" is defined rather unusually for the UK as consisting of England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:07, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

This is senselessly pedantic. While it may not be correct in general to say X is of Scottish nationality it's clear that here the term is being used in a more narrow sense which is nevertheless conventional when discussing snooker. It is not the role of wikipedia to pass judgment on trivial matters of language, we're merely here to reflect existing usage. 'Playing Nationality' is a meaningless coinage for which I can find no precedent on google. 'Country' would perhaps be more correct, but I'm not willing to go through all the articles changing Welsh to Wales. If the anon wishes to do that I would have no objection. I'm restoring 'nationality' to the infobox for now. Flowerparty^☀ 21:10, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I do actually agree about the pedantic aspect, I was trying to just come up with a quick solution that would be acceptable to all parties. I thought by making it clear it wasn't legal citizenship would diffuse the situation. The edits were pretty extensive - well over 100 articles were affected. This arose from a conflict on the Shaun Murphy artcile and I did ask the editor in question to raise his concerns here before making any changes but he blatantly ignored my request. The main point is that it isn't a 'biography' box, it's a 'snooker player info box' and as such it should use the general snooker terminology, but at the same time I accept the snooker project is part of larger community so we do have to be careful not to override more widespread conventions. Betty Logan (talk) 23:06, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I think we should keep them by "English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish". For example: the nickname of Mark Williams is "Welsh Potting Machine". Armbrust (talk) 21:53, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

This is a non-issue. Snooker players from within the UK play under their national identities (English, Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish) - and those identities are recognised by the body that administrates the sport as being such. This has long been recognised here on this issue - if a sportsperson performs and is recognised as performing under a national identity by the sports governing body then that is what we should say and state. Colin Montgomerie is listed by us as Scottish because his performs and is recognised by his sport as Scottish - David Coulthard is listed by us as British because he performs and is recognised by his sport as British. POV pushing is not good, and any future mass changes along these lines should be treated as POV pushing and dealt with accordingly. SFC9394 (talk) 20:42, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Someone keeps changing Alex Higgins nationality to "British" in his Infobox. Can people keep a watch over it please. Betty Logan (talk) 13:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Do we need two separate winners lists for the UK Championship?

There is a table of the finals on the main article: UK Snooker Championship#Winners. There is also exactly the same table in its own devoted article: List of UK snooker champions. Obviously having two lists is completely redundant so I see absolutely no purpose in having a separate list. What does everyone else think? Do you think we should delete one, and if so which one? No other tournament has two separate tables listsing the finals. Betty Logan (talk) 10:59, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the article List of UK snooker champions should be deleted, because

1. The UK Snooker Championship#Winners list contains more information (sponsors), and
2. the other would be too short without it.

Armbrust (talk) 13:07, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with that. We could just blank the article and set up a redirect to the main article page. Obviously the 'list of winners' link in the template at the bottom would have to be removed as well. Since it is the weekend, we will give it a couple of days to see if anyone has any objections. Betty Logan (talk) 13:39, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The template should contain the "list of winners" link, because the template is on every UK Championship page. Armbrust (talk) 14:17, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

That is true. It can be just changed to UK Snooker Championship#Winners so that it goes straight to winner's section on the main article. Betty Logan (talk) 14:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Since no-one has objected to this I will press on with it. Betty Logan (talk) 11:49, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Northern Ireland flag

There are currently some editors in the process of removing the Northern Ireland flag form snooker player profiles on the basis it is no longer the NI flag. What are we going to do about this? Removing it would require changes to all the NI snooker articles and also to all the tournament articles that NI players are featured on.

The options here are:

1. Keep an anachronistic flag to visually distinguish NI snooker players.
2. Not have a flag which will look simply odd on the tournament pages when all other nationailities have one.
3. Use the Union Jack as the 'Northern Ireland' flag.

I think it would be useful to have a consensus on this issue instead of having renegades running all over the place making changes to arbitrary articles. Betty Logan (talk) 14:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Northern Ireland is an individual situation. Since the 1970's Northern Ireland hasnt had its own flag, hence the reason that there is no flag in the infobox of the Northern Ireland article. The only flag that has any official use in Northern Ireland is the Union Jack/Flag, however, this does not represent NI itself but as a constituant. The issue is pretty complex and a real mine field but reading these articles - Ulster Banner, Flag of Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland flags issue will give you some idea of the issue behind this topic. If you have any questions realating to this I would be happy to (try and) help. regards--Vintagekits (talk) 14:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

NI doesn't have a flag and to portray the Ulster Banner as the flag of NI is wrong, also see MOS:ICON where it states If the use of flags in a list, table or infobox makes it unclear, ambiguous or controversial, it is better to remove the flags even if that makes the list, table or infobox inconsistent with others of the same type where no problems have arisen. thanks. BigDunc^Talk 14:13, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

As well as removing the flag you also changed the nationaility from NI to British. The WSA uses constituent nationalities and as you can see above there is already consensus on this issue. The flag is another matter, but you really should have come and discussed it here before making any changes because the changes apply to all articles and have to applied across the board to maintain consistency. By removing the flag on some articles it is impossible to use a bot now to make the changes that are agreed upon. Betty Logan (talk) 14:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I accept the reasons, what I want is an agreed course of action. Is there anything to replace it with? What do other articles do in this situation? Does the NI national football team use anything? We can drop the flag from the player article I guess, but what about tournament articles where players are represented by the their flags? Do we simply have a blank spot, or do we restructure the tournamnet pages to remove all the flags? Can we agree to at least not make any more changes until this is sorted out otherwise we just end up with a mess.Betty Logan (talk) 14:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

The WSA simply put 'NI' next to the players name. Perhaps on the tournament pages we can just have a little box the size of the flags with 'NI' written in it. That would be consistent with the WSA usage and would make the player's nationality identifiable from the tournament tables. Would this be a go-er? In the player articles we can just have "Northern irish" without the flag. Any takers?? Betty Logan (talk) 14:28, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

The main problem is that the Ulster Banner is seen as representing the Unionist/Loyalist community. Football is one of the few sports where the Ulster Banner is used, however football is still a pretty divided sport in NI with the majority of the support for the NI team coming from the Unionist/Loyalist community, they other sporting body that use it is the Commonwealth Games - boxing, rugby, GAA etc dont use it and are played on a All Ireland basis.

If we look at the Snooker World Cup article we can one of the main issues here - players from Northern Ireland have a UB beside there name despite playing for an "All Ireland" team. It is therefore being used to represent nationality, which is a incorrect use of the flag.--Vintagekits (talk) 14:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I imagine the FA use it not out of recognition of their loyalist supporters but rather they need a flag to represent the Northern Ireland team which is the position snooker is in. The point is the WSA identifies NI as a separate nationality along with England, Scotland, Wales and the other Ireland so it seems to be in the same boat as football. If the Ulster falg is used to represent the NI national football team I don't see why it can't be used to represent snooker players playing under NI nationality. If the snooker articles were the odd ones out here I would agree, but if there is a precedent on other sporting articles then there is obviously a consensus to use for football just like there has been consensus to use it for snooker. Betty Logan (talk) 14:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It can be sourced with verifiable and reliable sources that the NI soccer team use it along with the IFA if you can find sources to back up your claim that would help. BigDunc^Talk 14:45, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually I would say that football is the odd one out not the other way around.--Vintagekits (talk) 14:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

What about a shamrock? Betty Logan (talk) 15:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

You cant do that as it is WP:OR see here. BigDunc^Talk 15:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I dont think I like the idea of "making up" a flag just to suit the consistancy of the schedule. For example, have a look at how the flag issue is treated for the Ireland rugby union team in the RBS Six Nations.--Vintagekits (talk) 15:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Well look, basically we need some more input from the other Snooker Project participants. I'm happy to go with a majority on this since I don't think it's much of a big deal personally, provided the changes are applied consistently across the articles. But the Flag issue aside Big Dunc also keeps changing the nationality from NI to British, and the current usage has already been firmly agreed upon. The constituent nationalities are the ones used by the WSA and the purpose of the Snooker Info boxes are to document snooker information not biographical information. Betty Logan (talk) 15:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I think we should use this only on tournament pages, so that it should be clear that the player is from Northern Ireland, but we don't need it on the articles about snooker players. Armbrust (talk) 15:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

That is not the flag of NI and should not be used to represent NI. BigDunc^Talk 16:02, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Correct, there is no getting away from the fact that that is not the Flag of Northern Ireland. We are not here to rewrite history here. Dunc, is there a case where the flag can be used for tournament wins pre 1974?--Vintagekits (talk) 16:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a longstanding issue that has been discussed many times before. For example, Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Northern Ireland flag usage/Archive 2#Restarting the mediation was my detailed proposal from November 2007 about how the flag should be used. Yes, that flag is politically anachronistic to represent Northern Ireland, but from a contemporary perspective, it is still the de facto flag for Northern Ireland for several sports. Certainly, the use by FIFA and UEFA to represent the national football team and to represent club teams competing in international club tournaments is well documented. It is clearly also used for all Commonwealth Games events, regardless of how those individual sports may be organised outside the Games. For example, a swimmer might compete for NIR at the CG, but would compete for GBR (under the Union flag) or compete for IRL (under the tricolour) at Olympic Games and FINA championships. As for snooker, I think it falls into the set of sports where NIR is distinct from GBR or IRL, as mentioned in the "To identify sports teams or individual athletes" section of my proposal. So with respect to the current dispute here, might I offer a compromise solution. I agree with the comments made by User:SMcCandlish here. I think it is inappropriate to use the flag to identify the nationality of an individual player in the infobox of that person's article. (Actually, I am opposed to the use of those lone flag icons for the nationality field in the infobox of any person, regardless of their area of notability. It draws WP:UNDUE weight to that single field in those infoboxes.) I would propose that this project remove the flags for all "Nationality" fields, replacing them with a text string that says something like "British (England)", "British (Northern Ireland)", etc. But as SMcCandlish suggests, the flag icons can remain in tournament results brackets and tables. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 16:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Well that proposal gets over the problem of having a blank spot on the tournament pages because a player's nationality needs to be clearly identifiable and a flag is the best way of doing that. If the flag really is unacceptable then I suggest just putting "NI" in brackets nest to the names. I'm happy for the Ulster flag to come out of the Infoboxes on the players profile since it's not really necessary there. However replacing the nationality with 'British' is a non-goer and the consensus is for the nationality usage to reflect terminology of the WSA. "British" has never been used to denote a player's nationality and common usage is to use constituent nationalities. These are snooker player infoboxes after all, not biographical boxes. The purpose is to give information about them in a snooker context, and their nationalities are identified as English/Scottish/Welsh/ etc by their official governing body. If that really is a problem maybe add a "citizenship" field to identify their "Britishness" but their nationalities as players should reflect how they are professionally recognised.Betty Logan (talk) 16:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

An alternative would be to change "Nationality" to "Country" and England/Wales/Northern Ireland etc would be perfectly acceptable as entries. They are proper countries that the players come from and represent. Betty Logan (talk) 16:53, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I am glad you said well documented regarding the use of the flag is there such documentation to show that the UB is useed by the governing body of snooker if yes I would have no objection. But if not used by governing body then I object to its use. BigDunc^Talk 18:02, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is the Ulster flag in use in a photo from the Northern Ireland Billiards and Snooker Association which incidentally is approved by the Sports Council of Northern Ireland: http://www.nisnooker.org/Flag%20Bearers%20Sri%20Lanka%201990.jpg. Betty Logan (talk) 18:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Nice bit of work Betty I would have no objection to it's use for the team as it appears the flag is used by the governing body. One reservation is the website is now defunct have they a new one, in all honesty it is a pretty cheap looking website and the photo is from 1990, are their other sources that are not defunct? BigDunc^Talk 18:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

The Ulster Banner is immediately recognizable as the flag of Northern Ireland and has been so for many many years irrespective of the British Governments recent efforts to ban its use on the basis that it is not acceptable to a certain Republican minority. Official or not, the Ulster Banner is the Northern Ireland flag and should be used as such in all articles. --De Unionist (talk) 22:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

What is usually used to visually represent Northern Ireland's participation in sport events? Are there any instances of the Ulster flag not being used, and if so what is used in its place? Betty Logan (talk) 22:55, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Those individuals supporting Northern Ireland teams usually fly the Ulster Banner or the Union Jack. You will find that it is only Republicans who have an ulterior political motive for not supporting such activity. They tend to fly the Republican Tri-colour [5] which signifies their support of the Irish Republic and their political agenda of an all-Ireland 32 County Republic. --De Unionist (talk) 23:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

There are very few sports in which Northern Ireland teams, or individual athletes from Northern Ireland, are represented distinctly (i.e. with Northern Ireland as a peer to England, Scotland, and Wales). Those few sports are football, Commonwealth Games competition, golf, snooker, darts, netball, some motor sports, and perhaps some others I've missed. In several other sports, all-Ireland teams compete (e.g. rugby union, field hockey, cricket) and they do so under unique flags. And for almost every other remaining sport, they compete as part of "Great Britain" (GBR) or "Ireland" (IRL) teams as they choose. I have not found any sport in which an athlete or team from "NIR" is not represented by that flag. And I'm not Republican, Unionist, British, or Irish, with any particular POV or political axe to grind. I'm just a sports fan. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

The anti-flag people want to see examples of the flag being used in a snooker context which is fair enough I suppose, so ideally we need to find some contemporary examples. At least Wikipedia's usage will be reflecting the usage in the game. Unfortunately there haven't been any professional nationalist events in recent years, but there may be recent examples in the amateur game we can dig up. Who would think "The Troubles" would come to the Wikipedia Snooker Project eh? Betty Logan (talk) 00:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

There are no Nationalist sports which have represented Northern Ireland, they are all affiliated with the Republic of Ireland, Irish Republic or the Free State if you prefer! --De Unionist (talk) 00:18, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

OK...I have found this results page on the IBSF site: [6]. You will note there a couple of Northern Irish players in the draw and are represented by the Ulster flag and identified as "NIR" in the table below. The IBSF are the international governing body for amateur billiards and snooker. Betty Logan (talk) 00:24, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

As I stated above if the flag is being used to represent the NI team I have no problem but I have a problem with the portrayal of the flag as the flag of NI. BigDunc^Talk 08:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The flag is used to represent the countries of the players in the draw. All Wikipedia is doing is reflecting the use of the flag withing the sport in the context it is used. It is used to represent players from Northern Ireland. The flag can come out of the player profiles for two reason: i) It is not necessary to visually identify players on their profiles and ii) I cannot demonstrate the use of the flag on snooker player profiles so indeed it would be pushing a POV. However, I can demonstrate the use of the Ulster flag to represent players from Northern Ireland in the context of i) tournament draws and ii) result sheets. Like with national football, Wikipedia is only reflecting the usage of the flag in the context it is used in the sport. To omit the flag in the manner that the sport itself uses it would be to push a POV on Wikipedia. This problem looks pretty much resolved to me because we have demonstrated the flag's usage within snooker, and Wikipedia now only uses it in the same context. If you really have a problem with the flag I suggest you contact the IBSF and complain, and if they change the representation of players from Northern Ireland we will be able to make the change also. Betty Logan (talk) 12:01, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

It appears that the flag is the contentious issue (no surprise there). Betty's suggestion of using "country" instead of "nationality" for all professional snooker players is eminently sensible. And for the flag to disappear would surely offend no one. Few things have caused more damage in this part of the world than flags, believe me! Alex Higgins is from Northern Ireland and it's unhelpful to describe him as "British". bigpad (talk) 12:18, 11 June 2009 (UTC) [Update: the official NI governing body site is: http://www.nibsa.org/] bigpad (talk) 12:19, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

What about using the Northern Ireland Billiards and Snooker Association like they do to represent the Irish cricket team instead of the Ulster Banner - is this feasible?--Vintagekits (talk) 12:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I personally don't have a problem with that provided there is a visual marker of some sort so players are identifiable, especially within the draws. But would a Unionist accept that as compromise? Betty Logan (talk) 12:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the suggestion. Currently, the all-island Ireland cricket team and the all-island Ireland national rugby union team are "flagless" in results tables because their respective flags are non-free images and therefore only displayed on the single Wikipedia pages for those teams. I oppose a similar treatment here, when it has been demonstrated that the Ulster flag is used for those players (and the tricolour is used for players from the republic). — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I havent seen anything official that shows that players from the North are represent on an official basis by the Ulster Banner.--Vintagekits (talk) 17:20, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Betty Logan has posted a link to the IBSF website showing that flag used in a results bracket, and a pre-tournament photograph of a "parade of nations" with that flag also used. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:34, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I must agree with you Betty, a very sensible comment if I may say so. As for Alex Higgins, who was born and educated in Northern Ireland being British, is an Arab born in Israel an Israeli? I think they refer to them as being Israeli Arabs. Is Higgins a Britsh Paddy then?? --De Unionist (talk) 12:50, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm back

Just to let other users know that I will be editing on here again. I haven't edited on here for a long time due to other commitments. Samasnookerfan (talk) 17:46, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Links

As both world snooker and the global snooker sites have been 'updated' the old links don't work, so that is something that needs to be addressed in the snooker player articles, many of them link to articles that no longer exist. However there are other sites that can be used such as Pro Snooker Blog that has many good player articles and there are new ones on the updated global snooker site. Samasnookerfan (talk) 19:14, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Are there enough articles on this subject to justify an Outline of snooker?

Here's a discussion about subject development you might find interesting.

The Transhumanist 00:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: See Wikipedia's collection of outlines at WP:OOK.

Yet another attack on flag usage on Project Snooker

Maybe we can include a section about this on the main project page, so the use of the national flags (England/Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland) is clearly explained along with the appropriate context. It is getting tiresome having to revert all flags that are changed to union jacks. The usage of the national flags and inparticular the Ulster flag on result and drawsheets reflect the usage of the IBSF to visually identify the nationalities/countries that players represent. This obviously needs to be made explictly clear to editors beyond the scope of the snooker project since it seems to cause the most confusion. Betty Logan (talk) 13:13, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree. It should be made to prevent further confusion. Armbrust (talk) 13:22, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I've created a page clarifying the consensus of the Snooker Wikiproject at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Snooker/Nationalities and flags. I will add a link from the main project page. If I've got anything wrong or missed anything out feel free to correct it. Betty Logan (talk) 07:59, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

If a player is representing the NI team in snooker then I would have no problem but inserting a flag just because a player was born in NI is not on, as the Ulster Banner is not the flag of NI. BigDunc 11:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

If the snooker governing bodies used a Swastika to represent German players you could say that is not on too, but by using a different symbol to the one an official governing body uses would not be consistent with NPOV. If you can demonstrate the real-life usage of an alternative symbol to identify NI players by one of the snooker governing bodies then you would have an argument for replacing the Ulster Banner. Betty Logan (talk) 12:08, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Have you read what I said? If they are representing NI the flag is suitable once the governing body use it, if they are not or have not represented NI then it is not as it is being used to represent their place of birth which at present doesn't have a flag. BigDunc 12:13, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

The Ulster banner is only used on snooker articles in the context that they are demonstrably used by the governing bodies. The players automatically represent their countries in international competition by virtue of their place of birth regardless of whether they have ever represented Northern Ireland as a national entity, so the two concepts are not separable. That's just how snooker organises its players, and the Ulster Banner is a part of that. The Ulster Banner is used on draw sheets but not on profiles so that is how Wikipedia does it. If the Ulster Banner starts being used on profiles or stops being used on draw sheets then Wikipedia will follow suit. Betty Logan (talk) 12:31, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Are the players not able to play for ROI? BigDunc 12:38, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't really know about the membership criteria. All the ROI players seem to be born in ROI and NI players born in NI. I don't know whether the national representation is compulsarily restricted to place of birth, or maybe it depends on which national organisation you joined or qualified through. I don't have any strong feelings either way on the banner, so if just one governing body were to use a different flag/symbol for NI players then we would have a non-contentious real-life alternative which could be used. Betty Logan (talk) 12:50, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

But you are imposing a sectarian symbol on people who might not want it. In other sports people born in the 6 counties can play for either NI or ROI, and I don't think it is different for snooker so unless a player has played or expressly said they wish to play for NI then to use the flag is wrong just because they were born in NI. BigDunc 13:13, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

The snooker governing bodies don't conscript Irish players, they choose to join these organisations and implicitly accept to be represented by these flags. Betty Logan (talk) 13:43, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

GAN backlog reduction - Sports and recreation

As you may know, we currently have 400 good article nominations, with a large number of them being in the sports and recreation section. As such, the waiting time for this is especially long, much longer than it should be. As a result of this, I am asking each sports-related WikiProject to review two or three of these nominations. If this is abided by, then the backlog should be cleared quite quickly. Some projects nominate a lot but don't review, or vice-versa, and following this should help to provide a balance and make the waiting time much smaller so that our articles can actually get reviewed! Wizardman 23:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Quinten Hann vandalism

An anonymous editor keeps altering content within the article so that it contradicts the source. I think it might be Quinten Hann himself, or a deluded fan. The Snooker Project should keep an eye on the article and make sure that sourced information is not removed. Betty Logan (talk) 17:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Merge European Open (snooker) and Malta Cup (snooker) articles?

These are basically the same tournament, with the European Open being rebranded the Malta Cup in 2005. This has happened in many other tournaments such as the International Open, which became the Scottish Open and then the Player's Championship. The Grand Prix was the LG Cup for three years. Rebranded tournaments tend to just come unde rthe one article and have the one entry in charts and tables etc, but with the EO and MC they are separate. Do you think they should be merged so that they are consistent with how this is handled on the other tournamnet articles? Betty Logan (talk) 17:40, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I think it is a good idea, however if it will be merged, then the Irish Open (snooker) should be merged too, because (as it says) it was the "European ranking tournament in 1998." Armbrust (talk) 18:53, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

That makes sense. The convention is to have the article under its most recent name I think, so basically merge the articles under Malta Cup and put the redirects on the EO and IO articles? Betty Logan (talk) 19:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, i meant it exactly, this way. I think it should be done. Armbrust (talk) 19:56, 13 September 2009 (UTC)