Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga/Sailor Moon/Archive 6

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Inner/Outer Senshi

Since it was discussed on the Sailor Senshi entry, it's worth discussing this here for the whole project. Namely, the project seems to favor two *very* bad fan terms, "Inner" and "Outer" Senshi. My main complaint is that these are fan terms and that attempting to define them at all creates a conflict with WP:No original research. I'll try to format this, but please correct my formatting for clarity if I've goofed.

Arguments in favor of using Inner/Outer Senshi:

• They're popular terms and are commonly used, per WP:Anime.
• They're easy to remember.
• The few official canonical terms are long and not commonly used.

Arguments opposed to using Inner/Outer Senshi:

• The terms are not consistently used to refer to the same characters. The page is attempting to decide without any authority what the proper usage of the fan terms is.
• They're not canonical.
• They're not accurate because they define the Moon as a planet, exclude Earth as an inner planet, and use the outer planet Jupiter as an inner planet. It also occasionally exclude Saturn from the Outer Senshi entirely.
• Trying to standardize the terms in Wikipedia goes against WP:No original research.
• Fans who know the terms by other definitions become confused when they see "Inner" or "Outer" Senshi when it is referring to a

• Oppose. For the reasons stated above. As an alternative and in acknowledgement that canon terms are sketchy, I propose simply using the character's names so there is no confusion over who is being referred. For example, instead of guessing at who "Inner Senshi" is referring to, just say "Moon, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, and Venus". Rebochan 20:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support. 1. It would take alot of work to change. 2. They are well known. 3. In cases of confusion (IE Saturn, Moon and Chibimoon) its easy to tell from context weather they are included. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 15:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment 1. So what? We do that all the time. It took me a long time to fix "Metaria" on every single page as it is. 2. A lot of things are well-known, wrong, and not used in this WikiProject. 3. It's not easy to Rebochan 20:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. They are popular fan terms... but that contravenes the rule of neologisms... However if they can be found in non-self published or similar media, then I would be less uncomfortable with their use. --GracieLizzie 21:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support. In the manga (Act 39, for example) the term "Senshi of the Outer Solar System" is used; Outer Senshi is just a shortened form of that. In the musicals only, "Senshi of the Inner Solar System" appears too. It's Takeuchi who occasionally includes or excludes different members; that ambiguity is canonical to the series and isn't a fan invention. We can be careful with our usage of the terms, we can use them less to make sure we're always clear about who we mean, and we can remove attempts to "standardize" the language, but there's no reason to do away with them altogether. The distinction between the two groups exists and is important. --Masamage ♫ 21:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I addressed this a little on the Sailor Senshi article, but first, Senshi of the Outer *Star* system was used once in the manga to refer to Pluto, Uranus, and Neptune. It was never abbreviated to "Outer Senshi" except by fans. Also, when we discussed this in the other article, you said "inner four" and "outer four" were used in the musicals. Which term was it, where was it used and in what context? Regardless of which term it was, the musicals are never considered more canon than the rest of the series because it makes up its own character histories and terminology. Rebochan 20:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

• I waited to get home from my parents' to answer this because I wanted to double-check my manga, but no, it totally says "taiyoukei", which is this solar system, not some other star system. And I'm sorry for the confusion, but when I said "outer four" I was shortening "four senshi of the outer solar system". I did it without thinking, assuming you'd know what part of the article I was refering to without my having to type the whole thing out.

Here's the thing. "Outer" implies contrast with "Inner". There's a group of eight; the inward half are inner, and the outward half are outer. More importantly, "Outer" is an adjective and "Senshi" is a noun. Adjectives and nouns, like Outer...Senshi, are perfectly valid English constructions. It doesn't have to be an official name: it's a descriptive adjective.

And here's a possible solution. If it bothers you that it sounds official without being official, then we could just stop capitalizing the adjective, through in a clarifying number, and talk about the "outer four Senshi" and the "inner four Senshi". All the clarity, all the descriptiveness, none of the Shift key. --Masamage ♫ 05:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• User:Davi Williams posted to the Sailor Senshi talk page here with lots of detail about where every group is canonically called what names, suggesting in the end that we use the terms "Guardian Senshi" for the inners and "Outer Solar System Senshi" for the outers. Thanks, Davi! --Masamage ♫ 05:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
  • (Personally, I think that if one of them has a name that can reasonably be shortened to "Outer Senshi," it makes just as much sense to call the other group the "Inner Senshi" out of sheer contrast. But see my comments above.) --Masamage ♫ 05:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
    • The only reason I hadn't suggested other names was because there seemed to be some resistance to using a longer term. But if that resistance for possibly using a longer term is gone, I won't dispute that. Rebochan 11:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
      • How about Guardian Senshi and Outer Senshi? Come to think of it, that name reflects the groups' respective roles, rather than their planets' locations. The first group are the Princess' guardians; the second group keep an external watch. --Masamage ♫ 17:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
• I think that Guardian senshi and Outer Senshi are reasonable. But I don't see why the length of a title given to describe a group matters...Sailor Heavy Metal Papillon is quite a long name, but regardless, it is her name. Davi Williams 20:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• I don't have a problem with a long name if it's official, in which case why truncate to "Outer Senshi"? But again, there have been concerns that a long name that is official is worse than a short name that isn't. Rebochan 13:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

• "...there have been concerns that a long name that is official is worse than a short name that isn't." How so? I am not trying to be argumentative, I would just like a little elaboration. Pretty please. ^_^ Davi Williams 03:11, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Just me being resistant for aesthetic reasons. >____> --Masamage ♫ 06:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

New article

Please take notice of SMS/Infinity, which appeared earlier today and which now has a request up for being moved to Sailor Moon S. --Masamage 07:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Heh, awesome. It probably should be moved there, in my opinion. Sbloemeke 11:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I linked it in the Template ^-^. The page isn't finished yet (No manga or are we doing that on a seperate page?) it seems... Lego3400: The Sage of Time

Right, it's not. And it's a little too long now. :) But it's a great start, and we can whip it into shape. --Masamage 17:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Question... What is OOU perspective? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sbloemeke (talk • contribs)

Out-of-universe. We're supposed to write about fiction as a cultural phenomenon and not do any world-building or make it "feel real". Check out the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction). --Masamage ♫ 21:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, OK. Yeah, definately needs that. Sbloemeke 23:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Lists

Some of the character articles use lists for powers, some of them have lists with anti-list tags, and some of them are not using lists at all. Is there a uniform policy in place on whether to go ahead and convert all of the lists to prose or leave them as lists? It seems easier to use a list, but obviously Wikipedia isn't too keen on that. Rebochan 12:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

We're slowly converting the lists to prose. Ami was first; Rei was next; Makoto's turn is at hand as soon as I have the time. --Masamage ♫ 17:39, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

It was something brought up during Ami's peer review - that lists are unencyclopaedic. As part of getting Ami up to GA, we lost the list and went with prose. I'd like us to get all of the Sailor Team's articles up to GA eventually, and I believe this could be another goal of our project. I once came across something connected with Pokemon (that also could be said to apply to Sailor Senshi) that Wikipedia Is Not a list of powers and fighting moves, but I can't find it again. :P -Malkinann 23:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I see - I guess I was looking at an article in transition. Thanks for clarifying the policy. Rebochan 16:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Update the things to do list?

Some of the tasks are done, and some of them have shifted, should we update the list? --Hitsuji Kinno 17:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I've been keeping an eye on it, but if you think something needs to be tweaked, feel free. Anyone can do that. --Masamage ♫ 17:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Odango merge

I'm trying to get the articles Dango and Odango (hairstyle) merged, and since the only reason for the second article is the hype inspired by this series, I figured I should mention it to you guys. Please vote! --Masamage ♫ 18:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to disagree, as they are two completely different subject matter.Sbloemeke 22:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Do it over there. Talk:Dango. --Masamage ♫ 23:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Self advertising on Project page

I think that the self-advertising on the project page should be banned... Also the capacity to participate shouldn't be an issue. Such as the parentheses with can't participate often, I do fan fiction, etc should be made irrelevant... especially we are discouraging fanon. Thus the member section should just be names, nothing else. Objections? --Hitsuji Kinno 19:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I've been wanting to scrap that, too, but felt like it would inappropriate since I already tend to dominate the edits to that page. So now that I know someone else agrees: yes, do it. It's distracting and unprofessional. --Masamage ♫ 19:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I used the project page to advertise my absence when I went away for six weeks or thereabouts. If someone has a particular area of expertise in Sailor Moon, then I think it should be listed by their name, as a sort of 'go to this person' thing.. -Malkinann 21:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I think noting Wikibreaks is fine for very active users, as long as it's for a finite period and they remove the note when they get back. Your point about expertise is good, but it makes me nervous because I think everybody thinks they're an expert on something, and there's no objective way of knowing if they really are or if they're just full of it. We could make up a process for nominating people, but that seems like a pain. I'd kinda rather we just use the project page and talk page to publicize any projects that are being undertaken, and let the people with expertise involve themselves. --Masamage ♫ 22:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The only thing other than wikibreaks that that area should state, that i can think of, is if you want to focus on one Specific versions and want to state that. That the only thing other projects use it for. --Lego3400: The Sage of Time 01:33, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Meh

Found this while i was browsing.. Wondering if it has any useful info for us. --Lego3400: The Sage of Time 23:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Not really--there are no references on their page. If they bothered to do citations, then perhaps. The page we have now has most of that. *shrugs* --Hitsuji Kinno 23:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

It's been there absolutely forever; I think it's based on a very very old copy of the English adaptations article. --Masamage ♫ 23:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

YIKES!

Image:PGSM Cover.jpg got shrunk WAY too small and the old version deleted! We should probably fix this...--Lego3400: The Sage of Time 00:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Holy crap. Yeah, reupload it. Give it a width of exactly 200 pixels, since that's what we're using in the article and apparently someone has an opinion about its size. --Masamage ♫ 05:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I contacted the person who uploaded that version, if they responded, they didn't do it on my talk page. I asked them to check with any Wikiprojects and the Uploader, as well as any artilces its for a better size before shrinking an image that much.Lego3400: The Sage of Time 15:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi all. My first contrib to the project, I found that image (the PGSM Cover) and reuploaded it as it's original size. Someone to please check if it is ok. Thanks - Thor Malmjursson 16:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! I think we probably should have it smaller, preferably 200 px, but at least now the article isn't hideous. I'll shrink it when I get home. --Masamage ♫ 17:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Outer Senshi in Crystal Tokyo

We all know what the inner senshi are doing (Guarding Serenity, Endymion and Small Lady), and Pluto is guarding the Door of Space-Time.. But what about the the other Outer senshi... Do we where they are or what they are doing???--Lego3400: The Sage of Time 15:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Unknown. Any explanation would simply be apocryphal. --  Denelson83  16:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The only thing that comes to my mind is that, at least in the manga, they certainly know it's going to exist. Sailor Saturn, in her first appearance, talks about the Silver Millennium that will arise in Tokyo. Also all of them affectionately call Chibiusa their princess, which implies that they'll still be around to have her be relevant to them. If we do make any assumptions, the most obvious one is that they'll be doing exactly what they did in the first Silver Millennium--guarding the solar system. --Masamage ♫ 21:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

There is a rough reference to them putting up shields in Volume 17? The one where they went o their castles before being captured. It should also be noted that Chibiusa doesn't really recognize any of them. She met Pluto for the first time with Luna-P (Given by her parents, but the trick was taught by Pluto...), but is clear she doesn't actually know who they are in either version. (Her nae was given by her mother, as said by Chibiusa in the manga, BTW.) --Hitsuji Kinno 13:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

We should probably put this someplace ~Nya Lego3400: The Sage of Time 21:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Starlights

A head's up but there's some info that could be included into the article, but it hasn't received a reply yet. I have quotations too. (I also painstakingly translated the dialogue from th original by transcribing the Japanese. It's in my profile for those whose boats float from looking at the Japanese and microanalyzing it with tatemae and honne in mind. Though anime is turning out to be more honne in value.) --Hitsuji Kinno 13:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Screenshots

• From recent Wikipedia discussions, it looks like screenshots used to decorate an episode list are Bad (tm). We should see about getting rid of the images in the Sailor Moon episode list as they don't jive with policy (see WP:FUC). :( JuJube 05:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I was under the impression that a properly descriptive image caption might comprise discussion of the image in the context of the episode, and thus meet the fair use criteria? -Malkinann 08:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

That's the way it should be. Also WP:FUC doesn't say anything specifically about screeshots in episode lists. Where is this recent discussion your talking about JuJube? Kazu-kun 08:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

And why have they all been deleted without the slightest bit of warning?? List of Planetes episodes, List of Fullmetal Alchemist episodes, and List of RahXephon media are all featured-status and use individual episode screencaps. This sudden deletion is totally against WP policy, so what the heck is going on? --Masamage ♫ 15:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, the feilds for the movies and shorts were removed entirely... Me and Masamage aggreed that those were a step forwards. This thing has jumped back to a peice of crap. Lets reupload the images, alert the deleater. Also: I pointed out the FMA along time ago and that is kinda what started our whole makeover of the article. Yeash! I leave for the weekend and this happens. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 15:46, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't reupload anything yet. If Ryulong gets weird about it (any weirder than this already is) then we'll take it to WP:ANIME. --Masamage ♫ 15:56, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

• I'm personally against screenshots in episode lists, but I understand being upset about it. There's a discussion in WP:AN right now. JuJube 21:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Aaaand now they've removed the screenshots from the lists I just had mentioned as FA. So the only things to be mad about now are that A) They didn't mention anything to us, B) They didn't follow procedure, and C) They removed a bunch of our episode summaries for heaven-knows why. I for one am still mad. Also, is this only affecting anime or what? Masamage ♫ 21:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
    • The episode summaries are still there; only the screenshots are gone. And I am mad that there is conflicting interpretations of policy coming from all sides. While I'm against it, as I said, I will stand by whatever policy is, and people are seeming to be intentionally vague about what that is. JuJube 21:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
      • The summaries for the first series are still there; the summaries for the rest have vanished. They were removed by Ryulong in the same edit where he removed the images., without any mention at all in his summary. --Masamage ♫ 21:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
        • AND THERE BACK i did the old. Force you to act tactic. I reverted it to the edit before his and told him Ummm Yeah... Try again buddy! It worked! He did it right! But I'm not gonna be compleatly happy till the images are back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs)
          • I doubt that will happen. JuJube 00:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Inners/Outers Proposal

Okay, so I've been think about this more and am ready to not argue some of the stuff I had been arguing. I propose that, in place of the names Inner Senshi and Outer Senshi, we use "Four Guardian Senshi" and "Outer System Senshi". These are both word-for-word canonical--the word taiyokei is usually translated as 'solar system', but this translation is also legit. Also the Guardians tend to have the number tacked on, as there are definitely four, but the Outers don't usually mention their number, and when they do it varies between three and four.

Obviously at the Sailor Senshi page we'd still discuss the various other group names, including fan names. As a style guide, I'd say that the first time a group is mentioned within a section, we say "Four Guardian Senshi" or "Outer System Senshi", with a Wikilink to the relevant section of the Senshi article. The second time they're mentioned, shorten it to "Guardian Senshi" or "Outer Senshi".

Does this sound okay? --Masamage ♫ 01:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

No responses usually means no one is outraged. If nobody expresses disapproval, I will start making the change Wednesday, May 9th. --Masamage ♫ 17:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok I don't really like it, but I didn't want to be the first to say anything. More often then not, Editors are just going to type Inner or Outer out of famileritay or habit. It may be fanish, but it may cause us more work in the long run. --Lego3400: The Sage of Time 04:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, saving ourselves work isn't a good enough reason to avoid using the correct terminology. If it were, we wouldn't have to spell things right either. --Masamage ♫ 06:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I'd rather go with Inner senshi and Outer senshi. Better-known names. Raystorm 16:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Better known but made-up. We'd still include them in the context for which they're relevant; Inner Senshi would redirect to Guardian Senshi, for example, so someone looking for that would end up at the right place. --Masamage ♫ 18:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Fannish, true. Raise your hands everyone who has ever read SM fanfics and saw this terminology there. ;-) If there's a redirect I don't see a problem, to be honest. Cheers Raystorm 18:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I support this action, including the proposed redirection to ensure there is no miscommunication. Rebochan 17:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, it is now the 10th. The only standing objection has been that changing things will be a lot of work, so because I'm going to be doing a bunch of that myself, I feel okay to start moving forward with the change. I'll add it to the style guideline on our project page and start working on the Sailor Senshi article. --Masamage ♫ 23:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Done, including redirects. I've also fixed the articles of the Guardian Senshi themselves, plus Sailor Moon and the Cats. I also swung by the Shitennou, but the term is never used there. Anything else I haven't looked at yet, so go forth and tweak! Be sure and use CTRL^F to find them all. --Masamage ♫ 00:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I've now done every page that links from our template, with a few exceptions for pages that are so messy I didn't feel like tackling them. These were Sailor Moon S, Sailor Stars, List of Sailor Moon episodes, and Sailor Moon video games. Everything else should be good to go. --Masamage ♫ 06:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, got everything else in Category:Sailor Moon too. And in the process discovered this little gem, which is about to hit AFD like you can't believe. --Masamage ♫ 06:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Cleaned up the stragglers. All articles should be good to go. --Masamage ♫ 23:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Little Mechanical problems

I have a little confessing to do (and you'll hate me for it), but first the other stuff. Places--right now it's really inconsistent. The Silver Millennium page lists places within that context, however other articles link to the places article that we have. We should decide on a system for this. We can do a combination system or we can decide to kill either part. The combination system (1a) would consist of letting the list stay a list, but linking back to the list. Putting screencaps in the relevant articles, for example homebases can be shown in th relative enemy articles, significant places in the arc pages, but something consistent across the board. 1b would be to kill the places in all articles and do a wikilink to the places article. 2c is to entirely kill the places article. All places would then be mentioned as they are needed in the articles, such as the TV station, Tokyo Tower, etc.

The second issue I'd like to raise is the citation of episodes. There is nothing consistent in the guidelines on how to do this. (I asked). So far we have 3-4 different systems in place, sometimes within the same article space. These are 1. citation of the episode with reference tags, 2. wikilinks to the episode summary we have, 3. plain text (such as In Episode 44 X character did this). Even if there is not a guideline for it, we should try to be consistent to just be that anal about our articles. ^.~ I would suggest something like this: wikify the episodes. Then after each episode mention or if there is a group such as 194 and 195 do a citation after it. so something like... Episode 194 and Episode 195 <ref>something here about what specifically is relevant that can't be covered in actual article space</ref> be done like that... So for a specific example In Episode 194 <ref>The specific quote for this is, " * Kakyuu: Fighter? * Fighter: Y...yes! * Kakyuu: Do you use that appearance on Earth? * Fighter: Oh...to find the only lady here, this was more convenient... * Kakyuu: I'm sorry. (etc) "</ref> Kakyuu calls Seiya by the name "Fighter" instead of Seiya and continues to never call Seiya by the earth name that Seiya chose. I think this will clean things up a bit where the citation for this type of thing is sporadic, I also think it will force specific referencing too. I'd like to see quotes to support points more...

The third issue I raise is that I misread the furigana for shinzouban. I'm really, really sorry about this, but I'm woman enough to admit that I make huge errors. >.<;; I misread the last hiragana character. Only I don't know where to fix it. I know it's my fault... so I'm truly sorry. (There's a Japanese word for this... where the same kanji can be read a number of ways...) Shinzoubon should be shinzouban. (Tankoubon is still that though.) You can double check this, but I'm fairly sure. --Hitsuji Kinno 02:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, for the first point, I see the Silver Millennium article sections as being about specific eras in the kingdom's timeline, not about physical locations. That's a huge distinction at least in my mind, and if it needs to be clarified in the article itself, let's do that.

I vote that we not cite specific episodes in-line; it's really messy and hard to read, and doesn't mean anything to the average reader. We also can't link to summaries anymore because they don't exist. I think the best course of action would be to make able use of the ref tags, saying stuff like "At the end of the first series, Usagi expresses a strong desire to be a normal girl.<ref>"It's that normal life... I want back." Episode 46. [Link to Wikimoon or Hitoshi Doi.]</ref> Or however that quote goes. Note the general reference to plot timing, with more specific info in the ref.

Anything that can be included in the text should be, such as the conversation between Kakyuu and Fighter. Not quoted verbatim per se, but described, especially if it's going to be used as evidence for something. Again, more detail (the exact quote) in the ref tags--just like what you did, except with the ref at the end rather than in the middle, and the episode number moved into the tags, probably immediately after the quote. Usagi's quote above is actually pretty poignant and might be better served as part of the actual article text. It all depends. --Masamage ♫ 05:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Puns of Japanese names

Let's take "Kino Makoto" (written in Japanese form for grammar reasons). 木野まこと 木- tree also wood. The kanji in original Chinese was representative of a tree compare to the kanji "mori" 森 this means forest which is made up of several trees. Wood is part of Chinese folklore and also one of the elements. It's also pronounced Moku, which is part of theoporiginal planet and an association with Jupiter the God himself. 野- read "no" in this case, but it can also be pronounced "ya" as in Seiya. It means several things. English speakers often say it means field, however there are secondary meanings, such as civilian and domestic. These last two are what make it a pun, because the kanji "da" 田 can also be used, but it doesn't have these secondary meanings (it also is field and was used in Sakurada). Because Jeffrey's dictionary says it means civilian and these are their civilian forms it forms the second part of the pun. The are "domestic" not of the heavens now and it's their civilian form. No also can stand for no which is rendered: の or also　乃 or　之. (if in name form.) It means of or possessive form. Most fans take it as of, however this format of possession is also used in other aggultinating languages of the same group, such as Korean. So Usagi's friends would be Friends of Usagi. Tomodachi no Usagi. まこと- Makoto actually means two things. First there are no kanji used, in fact the hiragana is used (there are psychological effects of hiragana versus katakana in Japanese as well. Hiragana was traditionally used by "men" and katakana by women, it was only later that it was used for adaptation. Sometimes Katakana was perceived as ignorance too... but that's a bit too linguistic there.) Makoto has two kanji. One means sincerity and the other means loyalty. Both of these traits are actually a tie back to the zodiac sign of Sagittarius which are both part of the sign. "Sincerity" is often put by astrologers as "blunt" and "loyalty" is often associated with the many friends that the sign accumulates. Both of these traits show up particularly in the manga Makoto who also displays the colors of the sign in her school uniform and her Sailor uniform.

Combining this there are several referential puns. Tree/Wood of/civilian/field Sincerity/Loyalty. The first part is to the planet and the element that the planet is perceived to belong to as well as an astrological thing. (technically it's fire in the Western thought...) The second part is making a huge series of puns, first being the "of" the second the civilian or the domestic. (which is what people often miss and go for the primary meaning that they see in the dictionaries without looking at the other ones listed). "Field" is a meaning, but other kanji could have been used instead, so it makes more sense that this one was used primarily for the secondary puns. The third part is a referential to Makoto's astrological sign. Takeuchi mentioned that her name was going to be different, but I think she changed it because of her research. Even Rei's name was going to be different.

I posted this here for discussion on all of the names posted thus far. Some of them are lacking some of this information and a deeper look into the puns. I can reference each point for the astrological connection and the fact that "no" probably means the secondary meaning "civilian" which makes sense since we've to date not seen Tsukino attached to a royal name or otherwise attached to the princess names. Since this would effect project-wide stuff I thought it might be relevant to bring it up here. --Hitsuji Kinno 01:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

To me, "tomodachi no Usagi" translates to "Friend's rabbit." Wouldn't it be "Usagi no tomodachi" or simply "Usagi-tachi"? --  Denelson83  01:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

(1) DEnelson is right, the proper phrase would be "Usagi no tomodachi"; (2) since none of this information is going to go in the articles anyway, it doesn't help the project very much. :( JuJube 01:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, we can certainly correct what's in the articles already. ('Case you missed it, JuJube, they've all had paragraphs on name puns for a few months. ~_^) --Masamage ♫ 01:58, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, but how can we briefly explain all of this? Should we even try? JuJube 03:59, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It shouldn't be too hard. "Several puns are incorporated into Blah's name. The first kanji in her surname means blah or blah, and is derived from the Japanese name of the planet Blah, blahsei. The second can be field or civilian, the latter of which is especially relevant. The kanji for her given name is not given, but possible meanings include blah and blah. Because 'no' is also a possessive, her full name can be read as 'Blah of Blah'." Not all that long at all. I do think we should leave out the astrological bit about the first name, because that is definitely original research as well as going over the cruft line for me. --Masamage ♫ 04:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a light note, but Takeuchi did say she believed in astrology (San Diego Comic Con) and did include it into Sailor Moon specifically for shaping the personalities of the Sailors. This is not to refute your point, but does give a point of analysis which might show it's not cruft, but is original research. BTW、Usagi-taichi is inclusive of Usagi, not just her friends (It's more like Usagi and group, like saying someone's name and saying etc. in English), but the grammar correction was right. --Hitsuji Kinno 13:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Misc

Sailor Arteste

Ok wikimoon gives some info on her.. Any place we could put info on her as well?Lego3400: The Sage of Time 04:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The minor-characters list, I guess... --Masamage ♫ 04:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Coronis image

WikiMoon also has an image of Sailor Coronis, though its from behind. Think we could use it?Lego3400: The Sage of Time 04:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Probably not. :/ That is pretty awesome, though. --Masamage ♫ 04:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Says

Someone created the article Sailor says out of a single paragraph from the Sailor Moon (English adaptations) page. I'm inclined to turn it into a redirect to the latter, but thought I should see what others think. --Masamage ♫ 16:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it should be deleted its not realy a article just a paragraph and sailor says isnt a big enough topic to get its own article anyway ♥Eternal Pink-Ready to fight for love and grace♥ 17:48, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Unless we want to turn into a list of what they were, delete it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs)

That does seem like the only possible way to make it into an article, and it's copyright violation, so away the thing goes. I'm making it a redirect like I said above. --Masamage ♫ 06:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Arc pages

I had a test-page floating around in project-space for a while; looking at it again today, I decided it was good enough to be sent out into the world as a stub, so I moved it to active duty at Sailor Moon (arc).

I think having stub articles for each story arc is probably better than having nothing, so I plan to make R and SuperS tomorrow. Since we've planned to have them for quite a while, this shouldn't be controversial. I do think, however, that we should not work on the story areas for those arcs until we get Sailor Moon S and Sailor Stars cleaned up. which means we should really get in gear on those. Does this seem okay? --Masamage ♫ 00:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no objections. I don't see why there would be any.... --Hitsuji Kinno 03:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yup, me neither. I just like to leave a paper trail. --Masamage ♫ 04:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense. I'm still here, just in case you thought I left, I'm just not really going to do any work on S until it has some sort of cleanup. I'm terrible at cleaning stuff up.Sbloemeke 20:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Stars license

How about some information on why Sailor Stars hasn't come to North America, and why people say it never will? -- AvatarMN 00:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The general understanding is that Toei isn't relicensing any of its stuff outside Japan anymore, but we're having a terrible time finding citations about that in English. Every source we can figure out so far is third-hand. Do you know of any official sources that talk about it? --Masamage ♫ 00:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Isn't One Piece by Toei? But FUNimation still has the license. I thought this licensing caveat was particularly centered around Sailor Moon. But, yeah, all of this is double hearsay right now. JuJube 00:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, looks like you're right. My understanding was that the existing US licenses expired and that Toei didn't want to renew them, plus the US people didn't fight very hard because it wasn't all that profitable anymore anyway. So there's some triple-hearsay for you. :P --Masamage ♫ 01:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm more worried what this means for Zatch Bell than Sailor Moon. I wanted to see the dub of the Faudo arc, but considering that ZB isn't all that popular Stateside, it looks unlikely... ^_^; JuJube 01:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

That's so crazy, Sailor Moon was a big deal! Hey, there's a WikiProject on it.  ;) I know that Sailor Moon came out a little bit before DVD created an anime boom that started almost all anime getting a North American release, but a lot of the niche classics have come over, too. Urusei Yatsura, Lupin III, uncut Gatchaman. SM and SMR got sub-only releases, why not Stars? I can't believe they don't think it'd be profitable, I know I want it so bad! I've heard all kinds of possibly dubious things about why it hasn't come over, from Takahashi didn't like it and is surpressing it, to Toei tried to start doing their own English dubbing and Sailor Stars was going to be a part of that and though it failed this venture still owns the rights to an English dub for who knows how long. I don't know why no one in the biz cares enough to get us some official answers. -- AvatarMN 01:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

There were a lot of issues. Toei's U.S. department (Cloverway) somehow managed to mess up the dub way worse than DiC did, despite preserving the original background music; Cartoon Network mishandled the airing of the episodes, and "girl power" was on the way out. Stars, with its transgendered protagonists, apocalyptic themes and social commentary, would simply be too much for a poor American conservative producer to handle. JuJube 01:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Too much for TV to handle, maybe. Without the kind of edits that, by the way, all of the other seasons got and were put on TV. How about straight to DVD, that's still how most anime comes to us. -- AvatarMN 02:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I Personally hope it never gets dubbed ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 08:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't care less if it were dubbed, or if it got on TV. I want uncut, subtitled DVDs, and we don't even have that. -- AvatarMN 08:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

You can buy uncut subtilted dvds there bootleg though ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 08:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Too right you are... - Anime News Network's recently run a story on Sailor Stars bootlegs being sold by Amazon.com. -Malkinann 10:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Cool source! I just added that to the Stars article. --Masamage ♫ 17:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I really hate buying bootlegs... Sigh. But I just did. Toei, North American anime industry; you made me do it. I've waited 10 years, and you've never even cared enough to give the public an explanation for why you haven't made this series available. What did you expect? -- AvatarMN 18:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I felt realy bad when I found out I bought bootleg but its the only way to watch it on DVD with subtitles ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd DL it. This way the bootleggers aren't encouraged and profiting from the work and when it comes out for real... then I can buy it without the guilt and double cost. I want the Japanese DVD's but they are so expensive! They have no extras either. --Hitsuji Kinno 02:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I'd rather use up my disk space than give money to some greedy thief. --Masamage ♫ 04:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed as well. -- RattleMan 04:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I DL the first series after I found out they were boot leg I stoped buying but my sister reformated the computer and evreythings gone :_: ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 09:00, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Materials Collection

Should the Materials Collection get its own article? because we use it as sources for lodes of stuff in Sailor Moon artcles ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 20:43, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I can't think of anything else to say about it that's not already at Sailor Moon (manga)#Artbooks. Most of the stuff we'd want to go into is much more relevant as regards specific subjects--what is says about each character can just go on that character's page. --Masamage ♫ 23:52, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Naoko Takeuchi (revamp page)

I put some new sources onto this page from using the archive.org resource, however, I dropped a question or two there... so it would be helpful if someone could answer... that way I'll know how to edit, expand and proceed. I'm gathering all my resources... including volumes for this. I'll be posting new ref tag stuff for that page specifically.

Oh one last thing.. I'm toying with the idea of doing something like a Mangaka Project. That is revamping and redoing mangaka pages because most of them look horrid, are in disrepair, or are missing information and AMP doesn't seem to have time or resources to really focus on them. I've been always author centric.. *cough* large bias. I have no idea if there is any interest for it though. --Hitsuji Kinno 18:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest a mangaka Task Force rather than a WikiProject, but yeah, that's a good idea. Ask around at WP:ANIME and see what you can come up with! --Masamage ♫ 19:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler Tags

Was there a reason the spoiler tags were removed from all our articles? Isn't this something that should be disscused first?--Lego3400: The Sage of Time 11:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Check out the new draft of WP:SPOILER. --Masamage ♫ 15:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationales needed IMMEDIATELY

See this discussion--a bot is tagging for deletion every image that does not have a fair use rationale. Please read the note to see exactly what we need, and let's get to work before we lose anything. --Masamage ♫ 15:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Progress so far: I've double-checked the Guardian Senshi, Usagi, Mamoru, Chibiusa and brought them up to speed. --Masamage ♫ 15:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I did some of the villains ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 15:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Which? So no one has to go over them again. --Masamage ♫ 15:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

just these ones so far

• Image:QueenBeryl.jpg
• Image:AnimeMetallia.jpg
• Image:Phage Sailor Guts.jpg
• Image:Wiseman006.jpg
• Image:Wiseman006.jpg
• Image:ProfessorTomoe.jpg
• Image:ProfessorTomoe.jpg

♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 15:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Il just done these ones

• Image:Fiore.JPG
• Image:QueenSerenity6.jpg
• Image:Chaos Galaxia.JPG
• Amazon Trio
• Amazoness Quartet
• Makaiju

♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 16:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Question, the bot will still notify us of the image without their little "special" FUR, right? How soon after that are they going to be deleted? Also, while your intention is good Eternal Pink, I question if it's really OK for you to sign the FUR ("Though the picture is subject to copyright, I, Eternal Pink feel it is covered by the U.S. fair use laws because...").-- RattleMan 18:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I thourght I was meant to do that ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

If it's OK for you to do that, it's no problem. I'm just being sure we're covering our bases. -- RattleMan 18:31, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I hope to God that it is ok I'm scared I messed evrey thing up (like with the Senshi thing) ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Signing FURs is normal practice. --Masamage ♫ 00:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

You didn't catch my meaning. What I'm wondering is if other people can sign FUR for images that they didn't upload themselves (like Eternal Pink signed an image I uploaded). -- RattleMan 00:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Ahhhh. Well... yeah, I can't think why not? If anything, two hands in the image seems to make it a little more credible. I can't remember ever reading otherwise, at least. --Masamage ♫ 01:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Returning to another of my questions, the bots will still notify us of the image without their little "special" FUR and give us amble time to fix it, right? How soon after that are they going to be deleted? -- RattleMan 03:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea. Technically we should get at least a week, but considering how they abandoned procedure last time they went in for a mass-deletion, there's no way to know. --Masamage ♫ 03:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I think I got most of the Anime ones ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Do we know haw many are left to FU? ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 20:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I got a few done, ones the english version page and PGSM page...Lego3400: The Sage of Time 05:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

How long have we got till the evil bot starts deleting stuff? ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 22:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the one time it's gotten to anything of ours was the Sailor Buttress picture, and it left a note on Talk:Shadow Galactica letting us know the image was in danger, so I was able to take care of it before it got deleted. Since we've done quite a few, maybe we can relax, knowing we'll get a warning? --Masamage ♫ 22:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

whew I was worried the would be lodes of red links where the pictures would be one day ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 22:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I got a few notices on my talk page for images i uploaded...—Preceding unsigned comment added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs)

Judging by Star Wars, the bot probably didn't get every image of ours without a fair use rationale. I think the Outers' images are in danger of being tagged. -Malkinann 03:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Judging by Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria, any images uploaded after 13 July, 2006 will only get 48 hours warning before deletion. The one-week rule applies to anything uploaded before that date. -Malkinann 06:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Shouting-free discussion: Senshi titles?

In case any of you haven't been watching the exciting drama at Talk:Makoto Kino, someone has it in mind that we ought to change our article names to reflect the Senshi titles instead of the Japanese civilian name--so Ami Mizuno would move to Sailor Mercury, and Usagi Tsukino to Sailor Moon (character).

There have been a lot of arguments against this, most notably page organization, all made over at that talk page I linked. I think we should probably discuss it among ourselves, though, without the pressure this cantakerous editor has been pumping out.

Possible pros of moving to the Senshi titles:

1. English Wikipedia, English title.
2. Avoids the extremely unappealing possibility of using dubbie names.
3. Matches the page title with the lead image.
4. Most of the stuff in the lead is about the Senshi identities anyway. Even the profile, which is supposedly civilian-based, can't help but mention Senshi stuff when it's important.
5. Page organization doesn't really have to change much, considering the characters' personalities are the same in both forms.
6. Mr. Cantankerous would go away.

Possible cons:

1. Piling on of articles with identical titles ("Sailor Moon").
2. Some amount of article restructuring would be required, and they already make sense.
3. Risk of transitioning badly and losing GA status.
4. Lots of work--11 articles to be done. (Team, Moons, Mask.)
5. More?

What are all your thoughts? --Masamage ♫ 05:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Bah.. Leave it as it is. "Mr. Cantankerous" can go jump off a cliff. One user a need does change does not make! Lego3400: The Sage of Time 05:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what we should do about Mamoru and Chibiusa, though... Google suggests that of Tuxedo Mask or Tuxedo Kamen, Tuxedo Mask is the most common. It also suggests that Sailor Chibi Moon is much more common than Sailor Mini Moon. Incidently, check out WT:ANIME.-Malkinann 10:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I think they should stay the same I dont want to risk losing GA statas just for one guys opion who goes round bullying people ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 12:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to request that everyone please discuss this here. Stop engaging Link over on the Makoto page and just direct him to the discussion at WT:ANIME, where there are more people who can pressure him into being polite. We can have a calm and respectful discussion about it ourselves, because none of us feels like we have anything to prove by shouting.

As for losing GA status, Pink, I don't personally think that's a risk at all. I was just thinking of possible arguments people could make; if we do it right, then changing the title should have very little effect otherwise. Like I said, the articles are already structured in such a way that it wouldn't be all that much of a difference. --Masamage ♫ 18:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok :} but I still think it should stay because they names are Usagi Makoto ect. the Senshi forms names are just titles and they probly get past down ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The passing-down thing is an interesting point, but on the other hand we don't have proof of it. The one character whose title does pass down gets a Neo- attached to it. Certainly within the known universe, the only person referred to as Sailor Venus is Minako Aino. --Masamage ♫ 18:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Dosn't ChibiUsa become the next Sailor Moon? and the Moon Kingdom Senshi are diffrent people from the Senshi in our timeline I think ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

We don't know for certain whether her name actually changes to Sailor Moon, and the Moon Kingdom Senshi are definitely the same people as the ones in our timeline. That's clearer in the manga; they all have flashbacks about themselves. --Masamage ♫ 18:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Which Senshi title would we use if we did they have Normal Super, Eternal and Princess in Sailor Moon's case and theres even a un named one in manga ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Just Sailor Moon, I should think. It's the basis for all the other ones. And where is there an unnamed one? --Masamage ♫ 18:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

In stars they have Eternal Sailor Moon San wings according to Wikipedia ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 18:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Not as far as I know (or can see in her bio)...? Even if there's a scene where her wings are absent, she'd surely still be Eternal Sailor Moon. If you mean the other Senshi, then yeah, they only have one form name... --Masamage ♫ 18:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

sorry it wasnt Sailo Moon but the other Senshi it says "A third, manga-only form appears in Act 42, also unnamed but analogous to Eternal Sailor Moon (sans wings)." on the other Sailor Team profile ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 19:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

the only guy was arguing for this has seemed to gone off and arguing for somthing elece (he's very fickle) ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 19:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Which is a good thing, but I myself am wondering if it might not be a good idea after all. --Masamage ♫ 20:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I am opposed to the idea myself one reasion is because Hotaru and Sailor Saturn are sometimes diffrent people like when Sailor Saturn said to Sailor Moon that she was no longer Hotaru befor jumping into Master Pharoh 90 ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 21:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't that problem still exist with having the article named Hotaru Tomoe, though? If we took their personality difference to the extreme it would mean creating two different articles, which I don't think is the right way to go. --Masamage ♫ 21:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I think I should step back from the disscusion because I think Im oppsed because what I think of Link to the Past sorry ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 21:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Totally understandable. I'm having a hard time too. --Masamage ♫ 21:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

How about we give it the weekend so we can all calm down, mull over things, and let the last drags of the Makoto discussion die? Once that stops getting posted to I plan to archive it right away. Maybe after a few days of cooperating on other stuff we'll feel better, and can start discussing it fresh on Monday or so? --Masamage ♫ 21:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree after a break from it il probly be able to think in NPOV agen lolz ♥Fighting for charming Love♥

Oh, and please don't anybody engage him over there anymore. His last comment doesn't really need responding to. Let's let it go. --Masamage ♫ 21:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Im realy sorry but on his page I sent a mesege with a link to Wikipedia:Civility in it to try and get him to stop ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 21:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

No worries; your post to him looks fine. Let it die out as soon as you're comfortable. --Masamage ♫ 21:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Another con - has anyone done a googlefight for Sailor Scout compared to Sailor Senshi? -Malkinann 02:30, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

• "Sailor Scout": 49,100.
• "Sailor Senshi": 94,500.
• "Sailor Scouts": 118,000.

--  Denelson83  03:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Lets hope A link to the past dosn't find out about this ^_^ ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 10:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

What the......?!

This link comes up 2nd in a Google search for "Sailor Soldier." --  Denelson83  03:42, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

That's actually a good read, thanks.  :) If we ensure that it's looking at Sailor Moon by putting "Sailor Moon" into the search string, and remove sites that refer to them as both Scouts and Senshi, it looks like:

• "Sailor Scouts" "Sailor Moon" -senshi: 61,400 (51.51%)
• "Sailor Senshi" "Sailor Moon" -scouts: 57,800 (48.49%)
• Total: 119200 (100%)

So that's a current 3.09% majority for "Sailor Scouts", which I don't think is a clear majority, especially as the dub isn't likely to be shown on TV again. Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or comments on my equations?

Wikipedia:Naming conflict may also be able to shed light on some of the situation. (It's even got an example where use English and the most common name are in conflict...) -Malkinann 13:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

"Sailor Soldiers" "Sailor Moon" -senshi -scouts" gets a mere 5,000. But I also get significantly less than you on both those searches above, probably because I have "safe search" on. Sailor Warriors gets less than a thousand. I believe our main rationale for using Senshi was that it's got two official Japanese translations (Soldier, Guardian) and two official dub-only translations (Scout, Warrior); regardless of what's most common, Senshi is simply the most accurate. --Masamage ♫ 17:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the Google hits on either, these are articles on a Japanese show, and the Japanese characters thereof, not the English equivalents. Also, we're talking a person's name here, not a term, or a normal word. My (IRL) name is the same throughout every language. Why not a fictional character's? --Zyppora 09:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you're talking about the ill-advisedness of changing the Makoto article to be named Lita, and so yes, that would be terrible and nobody is advocating it; we even talked Link out of it over at the other page. The idea now is whether that article should be called "Sailor Jupiter", which is in a far, far more common name for her. That's probably true even in Japan.

Google analysis time! ("sailor jupiter" -makoto -lita -kino) gets 84,900 hits; ("makoto kino" -jupiter) gets 47,100 and ("sailor moon" "lita" -jupiter) gets 30,400. This is with Safesearch on, so all the numbers are artificially smaller, and I used different techniques with each to be sure of relevant results. The proportions should be about right, though. --Masamage ♫ 19:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you try searching using the Japanese naming order? --  Denelson83  19:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Whoops, good call. Bizarrely, ("kino makoto" -jupiter) only gets 696. ?_? --Masamage ♫ 19:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Im changing my stance now I had a weekend to think about it. They are most recognised in there Senshi forms. People I have spoken to usually say "Sailor Moon rocks" rather then Usagi regardless of what form she is in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eternal Pink (talk • contribs)

The thing is, the name "Sailor Moon" is not the same in every language. Just look at Polish and Turkish. --  Denelson83  23:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

True, but it's the same in both Japanese and English, which in are the only ones we have ever considered when making decisions here. --Masamage ♫ 23:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it's good because it will stop arguments with dubbies who want to change the articles and evreyone will (hopfuly) be happy. ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 23:39, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

@Masamage: Yes, I guess I was still in the Makoto-vs-Lita mindset ^_^; apologies for that. As for Makoto-vs-Sailor Jupiter ... I dunno ... Sailor Jupiter is more widely known and recognized, as the Google result shows, but we're talking about a person's name vs. a person's alter ego's name, in which case I'd vote for the actual name ... So I'm not sure actually. When using Sailor Jupiter, I think it'd be best to use consistency throughout the different languages though (but that's for those who support those languages to fix). On a sidenote: I think you'd get more hits on "kino makoto" -jupiter if you'd use the Kanji + set Google prefs to JP results. --Zyppora 08:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The thing that makes it okay for me is that Makoto's personality is exactly the same both before and after her transformation into Sailor Jupiter, so that the question of who she really is is kind of moot. (Anyway, she was Sailor Jupiter first, so that may also make it the more important name.)

I did some poking around to see what the standard treatment is here on WP... The article on the character Peter Parker lives at Spider-Man; Bruce Wayne at Batman; Kal-el at Superman; Princess Diana of the Amazons at Wonder Woman; Sue Richards at Invisible Woman; Bob Parr at Mr. Incredible; and for good measure, Samuel Langhorne Clemens at Mark Twain. --Masamage ♫ 09:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so where do we stand on this now? For anyone worried about the amount of work it would take, don't; I'll take care of it if this is what we decide to do. But does consensus support it, and are there any arguments we haven't examined yet? Or do we not care? :) Or what? --Masamage ♫ 18:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

More actionable question: does anyone think it's a bad idea? 'Cause right now we seem to have a number of pros floating around and no significant cons. If that is in fact the situation, maybe we really should change it. --Masamage ♫ 02:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

A-class for Ami?

Would anyone mind if I took the article Ami Mizuno to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Anime_and_manga/Assess? It's kind of a tough peer review for the step between FA and GA. I think we should because we should seek the highest practical standards (somehow I doubt that it's FA-class just yet) for our template articles, and even if it doesn't gain A-class, it'd still give us valuable feedback on how to improve the Sailor Team's articles even more. I've kind of been meaning to do this since we got GA two months ago, but do you think it's too soon? -Malkinann 14:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Nah.. even if we don't get it, it would help. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 14:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a great idea. We could use the advice. --Masamage ♫ 17:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's there now, so hopefully we'll get some good feedback on if it's A-class or not, and if not, why not. -Malkinann 02:30, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Got a reply. Not too bad. Could we put Sailor Moon up for A-class check too? --Masamage ♫ 18:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we should clear out the to do list a bit before going for A for Sailor Moon... -Malkinann 23:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Rawr, probably so. If outside reviewers just list all the stuff we already knew we needed to work on, it'd be kind of a waste. --Masamage ♫ 23:53, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

New semi-relevant article

I've created an article for Takanori Arisawa, and I nominated it for "Did you know..." based on the awards he won for SM music. Cross your fingers! --Masamage ♫ 22:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Woohoo! It got listed! --Masamage ♫ 19:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I just loged in and saw it congratulations :} ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 20:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Cast members category

Just so y'all know, Category:Sailor Moon cast members is up for deletion again. We were all fine with it going down the first time just as long as we got Sailor Moon actors done, which we did; but the category got recreated three weeks later without any dicussion. Since it's now policy to do these things in lists rather than categories, this shouldn't be a controversial discussion, but I thought I'd make it known anyway. --Masamage ♫ 09:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Planète Jeunesse

The WP Articles says "The first foreign language dubbed version of Sailor Moon was made in France". Well, the source you cited, Planète Jeunesse, says it premiered in 23 December 1993 on TF1, does not says "it's a first foreign language dub". [1]

What would you do?--JSH-alive 08:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Slap on another source, I guess. I know that was the first dub, but I guess I don't know where I know it from. I'll take a look around. --Masamage ♫ 17:56, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use problems for the happy couple

I'm worried that we probably have way, way too many copyrighted images right now at both Usagi Tsukino and Mamoru Chiba. The former has seven; the latter has six.

The two rules I'm worried about at WP:FU are:

• Minimal use. As little non-free content as possible is used in an article. ... Multiple items are not used if one will suffice; one is used only if necessary.
• Significance. Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot.

So far, we've been very lucky to be getting away with three at most of the other Senshi bios, but even that was met with some uncertainty at the Makoto Kino GA review. I don't think there's any way that either of the two articles mentioned above can possibly pass GA without losing some images.

I propose that the best rule of thumb would be to remove anything which can be easily explained with words based on the core images. Here's my analysis:

For Usagi:

Images that contribute significantly: the lead anime image (of course), the civilian manga image (also), the Princess Serenity image (complex and crucial), and the posing image (iconic and hard to explain)

Images which can be removed without damaging quality: Eternal form (can be explained, not crucial), Princess Sailor form (same, even easier), Neo-Queen form (same, easier yet)

For Mamoru:

Images that contribute significantly: the lead manga image (of course), the civilian anime image (also)

Images which can be removed without damaging quality: King Endymion form (easy to describe), rose image (even easier), Moonlight Knight (same), PGSM Endymion (kind of obscure)

Important images we lack that would contribute: a better attack shot and a Prince shot, one from the manga and one from the anime

This would get us to four images for each character, all of which would be significant and unique from all the others on the page.

I think this is very important for getting these two articles up to par and enabling them to pass GA candidacy. --Masamage ♫ 23:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Senshi title move?

As seen in the section above, it's been proposed that we move the following articles to the following names:

• Usagi Tsukino → Sailor Moon (character)
• Ami Mizuno → Sailor Mercury
• Rei Hino → Sailor Mars
• Makoto Kino → Sailor Jupiter
• Minako Aino → Sailor Venus
• Setsuna Meioh → Sailor Pluto
• Michiru Kaioh → Sailor Neptune
• Haruka Tenoh → Sailor Uranus
• Hotaru Tomoe → Sailor Saturn
• Mamoru Chiba → Tuxedo Mask
• Chibiusa → Sailor Chibi Moon

Because (as seen in the discussion above) there seem to be numerous "pro"s and no significant "con"s, I think it's best that we move forward with changing these article names, if indeed that's what we're going to do. In fact, here's my current list:

Pros:

1. English Wikipedia, English title.
2. All other superhero articles live at the superhero name.
3. No more pressure to use dubbie names.
4. Matches the page title with the lead image.
5. The Senshi names are vastly better-known.
6. Page organization doesn't really have to change.

Cons:

1. Piling on of articles named "Sailor Moon" (but see Superman (disambiguation))
2. Large-scale changes are spooky
3. ...anything else?

And, of course, we'd put redirects in place, so that Ami Mizuno still aims at Sailor Mercury, etc.

That discussion's been active a while, but let's give it another week, say, through June 13, 2007. If it still seems like a good idea (by consensus) at the end of that time, let's do it. I've got a mental list of everything that would need to be done to make this go smoothly, and I'm happy to either take care of it myself or share the task with anyone who's interested.

Thanks! --Masamage ♫ 18:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

*shrugs* There are cases where Sailor Moon is considered the title, rather than the character, such as sailor Cosmos is treated like a title rather than a character in the manga. That might be a negative. Because Sailor Cosmos says that Eternal Sailor Moon is the true Sailor Cosmos. There are cases of inheritance in Comic Book characters such as Green Lantern. That's the only downside I can think of is that there might be a bit of a confusion in that area. (Title, versus character who holds said title.)--Hitsuji Kinno 23:11, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I know what you mean. (A good example superhero page where the title is held by multiple characters is Supergirl.) On the other hand, our way is eased significantly by the fact that neither of the people who might potentially be inheritors of other people's titles—Sailor Chibi Moon and ESM, inheriting Sailor Moon and Sailor Cosmos, respectively—is ever directly addressed by that potential alternate name. So we can definitely and comfortably say, for example, that the only person in the series who is ever called by the name "Sailor Moon" is Usagi Tsukino. I think the potential inheritance thing can be pretty easily mentioned in her Senshi-form subsection. What do you think? --Masamage ♫ 00:15, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I was just putting it out there (though hopefully not interpreted as obtuse), but it is probably something to address within page.--Hitsuji Kinno 00:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

This also brings the Mask VS Kamen and Mini VS Chibi arguments into play. Those two have to be dealt with before we can procede ((Not that I really want to...))--Lego3400: The Sage of Time 12:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the last time this was brought up, Google favoured Tuxedo Mask over Tuxedo Kamen, and Sailor Chibi Moon over Sailor Mini Moon. -Malkinann 14:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I think we're okay with those for now. If there's a fuss after they're moved, we can always move them again. --Masamage ♫ 20:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I object, for the purposes of uniformity. Western superheroes be Western superheroes, but Category:Magical girls doesn't, in general, list characters under their code names, only under their real names. If we adopt this change, we should move all characters from, say, Tokyo Mew Mew to their code names. Not to mention that most magical girls, it seems, don't have alternate identities at all, like all characters from the Mai multiverse (who constitute a significant portion of that category). - Sikon 07:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This would only affect these articles, not the Tokyo Mew Mew ones. If those characters are better-known by their civilian names, then that's what they should be called. As for people with no alter-egos, obviously they should be at their only name. These characters, however, are vastly better known by their Senshi titles than by their schoolgirl names, as proven by the experiments done above. Every subject needs to be treated according to its own needs; hence, WP:COMMONNAME is a policy, while WP:UNIFORMITY is not. --Masamage ♫ 07:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

So everyone knows: the 13th is tomorrow. I think I'm ready to move everything into place, if it's still okay with everyone. --Masamage ♫ 21:16, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

It's okay, but if certain folks reappear to express their vindication, can we tell them to rack off? -Malkinann 00:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

How are we going to rewrite the leads? -Malkinann 00:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Heh. You can if you like; I don't think I'll choose to. It was a good idea, after all; just an unacceptable delivery. As for the leads, it should be pretty easy... Like, "Sailor Mercury is one of the central characters in the Sailor Moon metaseries. Her real name is Ami Mizuno (kanji kanji, or Amy in the English versions), but she can transform into one of the series' specialized heroines, a Sailor Senshi, when there is need." Or something like that? --Masamage ♫ 01:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Well I'm all for it, if my opinion means anything at this point. The fact remains that the characters are better known by their hero names, and it also makes it a lot easier for someone that knows a name from another version (such as "Serena" or "Annie" or "Bunny") to just be able to type in "Sailor Moon" and bring the article right up.Rebochan 20:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Cool, glad to hear from people who like it. ^_^ All right then, I'm going to start moving things now. First I'm going to change the links in the template, which will make it easier to deal with the "what links here" stuff, fixing double redirects as I go. After that, I'll get to work--first leaving a note at each talk page, then moving the article, then rewriting the lead, then dealing with the links. I'll work in my usual order, beginning with Ami and moving through the Inner Senshi, then the Outer Senshi, then the royal family. Then I'll change any other links that seem to need changing, like the GA notices on our project, the anime project, and the Good Articles list. When I think I'm done, I'll drop a note here, and then we can all look around to clean up whatever's left. Wish me luck! --Masamage ♫ 01:32, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, mostly finished, except for Chibiusa's article; after some investigation, I think she's actually better-known as a civilian than as a Senshi. Please see Talk:Chibiusa for my Google-based number-crunching, and discuss that issue over there. As for the general move, it seems to have been a success. What do you think? What else needs to be done? --Masamage ♫ 03:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Dealing with Manga

I was thinking I could do the manga summaries like the anime list episodes.The idea would be something like this:

List the manga as per volume, list changes underneath the summary from the shinsouban, and do it that way. I incidentally have the summaries typed out... (manga faq...) so it's not that big of a deal to do the transfer. Objections? Input? --Hitsuji Kinno 00:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

So...a new article...? --Masamage ♫ 02:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

List of Sailor Moon manga acts? or just a "list of acts" section in the Sailor Moon (manga) page? We should probably delete the Sailor Moon volume 1 test page some time - we're not going to be doing anything with it, I think.-Malkinann 02:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure a new article is a good idea. More manga coverage would be awesome, but I think it should be combined with the arc pages; maybe a paragraph or two for each Act. I'd love to suggest something similar for the anime, but 200 episodes is just way too many to do that with, which is why it gets its own page. The manga is smaller and more managable, so I don't think it's a good idea to split off yet another article. --Masamage ♫ 03:26, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

So attach it to the arc pages? I can do that... I was thinking of doing it like the episode list... *shrugs* but whatever works best. The only problem with splitting by arc is that many of the acts don't have a clean break, like from the first arc to the second arc is not a clean break, thus the act would have to repeat... (Same with the volumes.) So how do you want to handle that?--Hitsuji Kinno 18:31, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm. Well, say with Volume 4, we have the transition between arcs one and two happening within one act. I guess that I'd describe the events in arc one's page: they defeat Beryl, everyone's resurrected, Usagi chooses to remain on Earth, blah blah detail detail. As she and Mamoru kiss in the park, a pink-haired girl tumbles out of the sky, leading directly into the second major story arc. I'd wikilink the end of that sentence to the R page, and have the manga section start with how, after defeating Beryl and blah blah, Usagi and Mamoru are relaxing and, when they kiss, a girl falls out of the sky and lands on her head. Then go on from there. --Masamage ♫ 01:16, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Reset Indent. Alright. I put them under unlaunched--> Sailor Moon manga.... you'll probably have to edit it to make the names conform (use a search and replace like Microsoft word or a word processor). Just note that Casablanca Memories as a side story technically belongs to the first arc, not the third... I don't know if that will cause trouble or not. Oh and I copy-pasted it from my SM manga FAQ if that might cause trouble or something... (I cut the book overviews though.) --Hitsuji Kinno 00:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

You know, I do think a side-stories page would be really beneficial. That would include both the anime and manga; most of them have irregular or unknowable arcs, and we'd finally have a decent place to describe stuff like Chibiusa's Picture Diaries. --Masamage ♫ 00:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe merge the Parallel Sailor Moon page with it? That page doesn't have much on it...--Hitsuji Kinno 03:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I think so. --Masamage ♫ 05:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Items Clean up

I put something up in the talk page. I'm going to *try* to back it up with official sources rather than fan pages which seem to get it wrong... even the good ones. If anyone wants to join in this massive and masochistic project go ahead. This is a head's up.--Hitsuji Kinno 00:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it'd be more useful to get things fixed up in the character pages themselves. Lists of items always get deleted; I can't imagine that page ever successfully going live. --Masamage ♫ 01:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

We could move it down as a reference page then... I think it would be useful to have all of the items listed. It will make it easier to do edits later on and it will give a place for us to discuss it (People are sadly also using that page for reference on other websites...). I'm transferring over official names from the website. But my kanji skills are poor. I can't read any of the kanji on the watch to try to get the official name. (Official website-->Click Ami-->Click the alternate button at the top right. The watch should be visible with the kanji... --;; I barely got the official names for the antenna on Jupiter...). Oh and I updated it too. It should be easier to read now.--Hitsuji Kinno 18:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Having a reference page would be excellent, yeah. And what I usually use for kanji-finding is the kanji search tool at Jeffrey's dictionary. I can dig up the URL if you need. --Masamage ♫ 01:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I know that page and I have a Kanji dictionary (Nelson's), the problem though is that there are so many. X.x;; *sighs* I wish I could get some help... but it looks like I'm in it alone. Given that I'll move it down with the references page rather than keep it in unlaunched.--Hitsuji Kinno 00:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I can help kanji-hunt. I had to find most of the ones for the attack names and many of the episode titles. --Masamage ♫ 00:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Naoko Takeuchi Page

Almost ready to launch. I admit I was a bit lazy with the references and didn't format them properly on some, but I managed to find at least links for it. I'm kind of tempted to list all her works on the references page since it mentions things about SM in the liner notes and I'm just that lazy.

I didn't put in some references because I wasn't sure how to handle linking since archive.org doesn't read Japanese. (see talk page) and I effectively stole from the original page the Japanese and then had a translator translate it... --;;. I was forced, therefore, to put it in the External Links for the time being. See talk page.

Anyway, I need someone to read it over, look at sections, combine them, and look for places that need to be expanded, etc. (i.e. editor). Then I think it will be ready to dump into the official page. (after the references are cleaned up.).--Hitsuji Kinno 04:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Just for amusement

Nothing to reference or Include... http://www.fanhistory.com/index.php?title=Sailor_Moon

On a personal note... I particularly like this page: http://www.fanhistory.com/index.php?title=Ian_Andreas_Miller

Sorry... I still find his e-mails amusing.--Hitsuji Kinno 05:26, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Artbook II look up

http://mangastyle.net/book3/3-24.jpg This one... I need the Japanese text she used for the Chalice--is it in kanji or katakana? I'm verifying the names of the items. --Hitsuji Kinno 20:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Want me to shoot Michelle an email? --Masamage ♫ 20:09, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure... I wish I'd brought all my artbooks with me. The remaining ones are living in my parent's basement.--Hitsuji Kinno 05:38, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

A Little reward...

A friend of mine had this interview with Naoko Takeuchi, but he lost where it was, so he searched for it for me... and voila! Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytoezOEU0Oo . You can hear her talk, plus it has some really good references for the main page. ^_^--Hitsuji Kinno 00:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I caught: Naoko likes watching the anime and thinks it's well-made; the sailor suits were Osano's idea; her favorite character is Tuxedo Mask, she's attracted to him, that's why he's the love interest; Umino is extremely easy for her to draw and was her first purely comedic character; and she likes tokusatsu shows and wanted to do a girls' version of those, which was another part of her inspiration (and foreshadows the existence of PGSM!). Also, she seems pretty shy! --Masamage ♫ 04:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

thanks very much for that I realy enjoyed it and favoured it :} ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 14:25, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems to make quite a bit of sense that Takeuchi's favourite character in SM is #0, given that she is so much like #1. I wonder if Takeuchi felt that Yoshihiro Togashi was a lot like #0 when she married him. Also, in the video, she didn't say she liked tokusatsu shows; she said she liked the Super Sentai metaseries. --  Denelson83  15:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

When they say they hear she likes SFX movies, the kanji for tokusatsu (特撮) are in the text of the question, and she says "hontou wa!", that is, "true". --Masamage ♫ 15:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

If you're really obsessed *raises hand* you'll catch she has a potpourri jar on her mantle, that you can see the white marble floor she talked about and said she slept on... she has shoes like Usagi... she arranged her pencils in one jar, brushes in the second and toning supplies in the last jar, she has a cell from the first series, that this is most likely 1993 because you can see Chibiusa, she's right-handed, she does all drafting with a .5 mechanical pencil, then she does another draft with a pencil, then traces that with pen-- she has a light table, and if you look closely you can even spot the inks she uses... you can even spot the manga that she did on her shelf... and if you look even mor closely maybe you can find out *which* ones are one her shelf... I also know which order she draws characters in... Muhahaha. She does face outlines first, then fills it in, then draws their clothes. She also likes using guidelines... ^.~

BTW, From what I can assess she's shy, but underneath it social and outgoing also gained a lot of business skills... Togashi is the glasses-wearing type she described she liked later in the series (She's a fan of men in glasses.. she said.. and that's the type she married.). Hehehe. I don't own a website on her for nothing.--Hitsuji Kinno 19:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Describing the name of alter ego

After reading WP:WAF, I felt “Her real name is Usagi Tsukino, a carefree schoolgirl…” should change to something like this: “…as well as its title character, which is an alter ego of Usagi…” (Example for Sailor Moon)

Well, I hope may happiness be with you.--JSH-alive 15:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The idea being that the first is too in-universe? Do we have a precedent?--Hitsuji Kinno 16:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Alter ego isn't really correct because they have essentially the same personality. Princess Serenity, on the other hand, is an alter ego. --Masamage ♫ 18:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Naoko Takeuchi

I switched out the page, posted it and deleted it from Minor tasks. I'm missing only two references... that is the interview that was done with the actresses of PGSM which told about her involvement. They said that they learned a lot from Naoko Takeuchi... (Though there is also a cameo of her in the Special Act...) Anyway, should be to template now. I wanted to add some philosophy stuff, but it seemed to be too trivia-ish. --Hitsuji Kinno 01:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Awesome! Maybe once we find those two references, we can put it up for peer review and later GA. -Malkinann 03:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

"Though there is also a cameo of her in the Special Act..." WHAT??? --  Denelson83  12:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

In the making of? Maybe that's act Zero I'll have to "painfully" watch that again. ^.~ Naoko Takeuchi shows up before the actors go on stage. Everyone misses it--but like the stalker fanatic I am I spotted her right away. She was holding up a "v" sign wearing a cute and quite fashionable peach dress smiling shyly and awkwardly which a really cute haircut. Ahhh.... I replayed that like thirty times, and took some snapshots.--Hitsuji Kinno 01:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ha ha. Well, I believe you; is that on your website? If so, we can cite it there. --Masamage ♫

I'm working on DLing it again to retake the shots since I lost them somewhere... not that it's painful or anything... since I'm an addict of making ofs... however I did find some evidence that the actors worked with Takeuchi-sensei...http://www.sailormoon.ws/archives/110803.html "Q8. What are your thoughts of Takeuchi-sensei?

Shibue: The first time I met her is when I was first getting the costume prepared for me. The feeling I had was that she really looked like someone who draws shoujo manga." http://www.sailormoon.ws/archives/123003.html http://www.sailormoon.ws/archives/111203.html http://www.sailormoon.ws/archives/112703.html http://www.sailormoon.ws/archives/100203.html , "Sawai: Currently the difficult part is: "We're freezing!" Takeuchi-sensei, please draw warmer costume designs!" (is this to indicate that they know her enough to request them?) "Q8. Tell me what you thought when you first met Takeuchi Naoko.

Sawai: She's as cute as I had thought! She's always smiling and at the auditions she really helped relieve tension.

Hama: She's quite the snappy dresser!

Kitagawa: She's got nice style!" http://www.genvid.com/PGSM/She conducted the interviews... so I need the other ones. Good for referencing.

All of them claim she was there on costume day... plus I have a real gut feeling she was heavily involved in the production because of the storylines, the sudden insert of cellphone which she obsessed over in the manga liner notes, the way the odango are done, and finally the wedding scene in the special act is a heavy parody of Takeuchi-sensei's own description of her wedding... where she called it off every few weeks... etc... but I'll keep looking for that source.

I found the anime interview... It's between Kia Asamiya and her... but it's on my harddrive... and I can't find the original Kappa Interview... Kappa Magazine #62 Translated by Mina Kaye Any ida how to handle this one?

--Hitsuji Kinno 05:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Jupiter - translated!!

Over on the Hungarian wikipedia, someone has translated some of our Sailor Jupiter text for hu:Kino Makoto ^_^ ! Just thought I'd mention it. :) -Malkinann 08:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey, that's pretty awesome. :D How'd you find out? --Masamage ♫ 16:26, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I was editing sukeban, and I discovered an interwiki link... I was expecting a Japanese interwiki at some point, but Hungarian? I did a doubletake when I saw they'd cited the same book as me, and checked out their linked Sailor Jupiter...  :) On closer examination, their hu:Hino Rei page seems to be partially translated from ours, too.  :) D'you think having our work translated into another language counts as an 'achievement'?  ;) I'd so like to ask Kasuga for a suke-tan image for the sukeban page, but every time I think about it, I come over all shy. :( Plus given the checkered history of the sukeban subculture, he might not want a picture of Wikipe-tan up there. -Malkinann 21:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Hee hee, sweet. (I asked Kasuga to make a Magical Girl Wikipe but he never really responded, sigh.) And yeah, I think this does count as an Achievement. ^_^ I'll think about how to list that, since there's no date associate with it, really... --Masamage ♫ 01:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I looked at their history, they've been kicking around a version of our page since July 2007, so I'd use July 2007. They've been working on porting it since July 2, 2007, and finished it July 4 2007 when it got interwikied.--Hitsuji Kinno 01:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Moon Official

New images of the Outers have been added to Sailor Moon Official Website, reintroducing Saturn, Uranus and Neptune as character as Takeuchi-sensei gets ready for posting the next arc on the website. I don't know if that's of any use... but I thought it would be worth noting here.--Hitsuji Kinno 22:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Yay~~ -Masamage ♫ 23:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

PGSM Takeuchi-sensei

http://sensei.takeuchi-naoko.com/photos/pgsmtakeuchi.jpg http://sensei.takeuchi-naoko.com/photos/pgsmtakeuchi2.jpg http://sensei.takeuchi-naoko.com/photos/pgsmtakeuchi3.jpg http://sensei.takeuchi-naoko.com/photos/pgsmtakeuchi4.jpg http://sensei.takeuchi-naoko.com/photos/pgsmtakeuchi5.jpg http://sensei.takeuchi-naoko.com/photos/pgsmtakeuchi6.jpg http://sensei.takeuchi-naoko.com/photos/pgsmtakeuchi7.jpg

From the time of 4:30 and 4:44 in the video. You can see several of the girls really humbled. Kitagawa-san was so distracted at the appearance the had to fix her wig... and finally there is a picture of all of them together at that same conference with Takeuchi-sensei wearing said dress... which is how I immediately knew it was her besides my weird stalker tracking ability. Oh and it's a fist up in the air the Japanese way of saying Gambare/gambatte not a thumbs up, though it's hard to tell. I love that dress BTW... when Takeuchi-sensei gets rid of it like her French bra, I wouldn't mind having the dress... ^.~ I'm having trouble tracking down that quote though... I'll have to ask someone with better memory.--Hitsuji Kinno 06:14, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Those with Crunchyroll accounts: http://www.crunchyroll.com/showmedia?id=11903 You7 can see a moving updated Takeuchi-sensei there in the making of... --Hitsuji Kinno 20:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Conflict over Image:Naoko.jpg

This is the only headshot of Takeuchi that we have available. The Naoko Takeuchi article has to have this image, so we need it licensed. Deletion is not an option, as I am guarding this image. Please license it! --  Denelson83  20:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you can actually guard stuff like that and be justified by policy. >_> You might get in trouble. As far as I know, the rule is that we are never allowed to use copyrighted images for biographies of living people, no matter what, and that no image is considered better than a copyrighted image. It doesn't matter what licensing is used. --Masamage ♫ 20:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I think Hitsuji Kinno mentioned that either she or Lunar Archivist were going to Japan to meet Takeuchi-sensei? Maybe we could ask them for one of their photos of Takeuchi, licensed under the GFDL or NC-by-CC license? -Malkinann 21:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

That's just about our only hope, yeah. --Masamage ♫ 21:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

But Wikipedia considers CC-NC to be non-free. --  Denelson83  01:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Or a suitably-free license, then. -Malkinann 09:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Lunar Archivist is working on it currently. Ask him to make the request. I asked him to clear up the Cosmos thing once and for all. It might take a while for Genvid to finally land an interview.

I'll be going to Japan in May of 2008... but not to meet Takeuchi-sensei. >.<;;--Hitsuji Kinno 19:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

fair use rationale templates

Category:Non-free media rationale templates, relevant to our interests?  ;) These seem to be a series of in-progress templates that would assist users in fulfilling the non-free content criteria policy. Might be worthwhile keeping an eye on it - I wouldn't recommend deleting what we've already got in favour of a template, though, as it might get afd'd. -Malkinann 09:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Complete Episode Articles?

I've noticed they've done this for a couple of other shows such as Futurama, and was wondering if it was a posibility for the Sailor Moon episodes once the episode list page gets cleaned up. There is a lot of content that could be put into these episode articles, such as cultural references, references to other episodes, etc. It was just an idea that I had. It could also clear up the problem of how big the summaries of the episodes in the episode list article. Sorry if this suggestion has already been done, I'm kind of new to this project and just thought it was a good idea. Zemalia 13:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

We actually used to have full episode articles, but they were a pain in the tuchis to try and maintain. We eventually decided that the individual episodes aren't generally notable enough to describe in huge detail, so now we link to the WikiMoon summaries. At least, we will when it's cleaned up; only the first series in the list is really up to speed. --Masamage ♫ 19:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. And here I was hoping I would have something big to contribute for once. And thanks for not n00b bashing me.. ^^; Zemalia 20:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you kidding? Polite, enthusiastic n00bs are pretty much the best thing ever. :) So, you want to contribute! That's awesome. I have a pretty good idea of the areas where the project is weak and needs boosting; what aspects of the metaseries do you know the most about / like the best? --Masamage ♫ 20:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm rather partial to the outer senshi and any cultural references that in the series. If you have any suggestions on what I can work on, I would love to help! That's what I'm here for after all. ^_^ Zemalia 17:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm~! Are you very familiar with Sailor Moon S? That article basically needs to be taken apart and put back together. It's way too long and detailed and is full of mistakes. (Sailor Stars is closer to ideal, though not perfect either.) --Masamage ♫ 20:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Compiling data about Hikawa

I don't know if this would be completely useless, but with the leg work of Lunar Archivist, and some pictures, etc. I have a hypothesis that the manga Hikawa is not only smaller, but is comprised of two shrines, the Shiba Daijingu shrine where Takeuchi-sensei worked, and the original Hikawa shrine... I'll be sure to take plenty of pictures and stuff to see if I can get proof... but where would that go if I gather the evidence? And is this irrelevant to add even if I get a picture for picture comparison?--Hitsuji Kinno 03:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

It may fall under the WP:OR.. :( It could be something you could put on your own website, though. -Malkinann 04:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Peer review?

I'm getting a bit bored and so I'd like to put something up for peer review - I was thinking either Dark Kingdom, Sailor Stars or Naoko Takeuchi - the first two because they're sort of our templates, and the last because Hitsuji's recently rewritten it. Which one would youse prefer to be reviewed? -Malkinann 05:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Naoko Takeuchi, 'cause I'm most confident about it. XD --Masamage ♫ 05:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm missing one or two references for Naoko Takeuchi--mainly because I don't know how to handle them. It goes something like this: I have two of the interviews that are no longer online. Being as an insane fan as I was (which is more self-deprecation than a boast here), I kept most of the reviews, I copied and pasted them. I found one with Kappa magazine. *BUT* the original source is dead and it won't come up on archives.org. I have two of these. One from Kappa magazine and one from a dead college website. With the interview with Kia Asamiya, you can get tons of good stuff to include, but I hesitate because I'm confused about how to do citation. The one from the Japanese website is unfortunate because archive.org doesn't read Japanese! --;; (If you know a work around I know more Japanese now than I did then.) It catalogues it... but messes up the encoding. I *do* have a crap translation. And I can pull things from that, but I'm not sure how to handle that citation. The PGSM citation is more tricky. I *know* by gut feeling, instinct and watching the show the heavy Takeuchi-sensei influence of PGSM. All of the pieces just fit too perfectly. I can feel her influence in the costumes, the production and most of all in the storyline. Besides Usagi has proper odango. I just need to have someone with the production book translations to see if we can track down anything... ideas on this are welcome and then I'm pretty confident we could get it up to GA.--Hitsuji Kinno 00:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

You could perhaps host the offline interviews on your own website??? Maybe then we could work out what to do with them. -Malkinann 07:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I can do that, but I'm a bit worried about copyright issues... 'cause technically I can't track down to owners to ask them if I can post them. Ideas on how to get around this issue would be nice--even though I'm giving credit, it's kind of mean/weird to take someone's material without permission, even if it's a defunct site. Being a creative I'm sensitive to such issues... Anyway, I'll post them with a disclaimer. If they are voted down then we can take them down, if they are considered useful then we can do a manhunt to figure out how to properly credit/get permission.--Hitsuji Kinno 19:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Adding 'Contains Japanese text' to the articles

I've started doing this, since it seems like one of the easist tasks to complete at the moment. I just wanted to let everyone know that the pages that do have the tag on there already, I've been moving to the top of the page. If they sit at the bottom, most people won't even notice them, plus they seem designed to go at the tops of page (the template). If anyone has any problems with this, please let me know. Zemalia 18:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks for adding that! My only concern is that I thought it was designed for the bottom of the page. It's kind of distracting at the top. --Masamage ♫ 18:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't really look like it belongs there, especially since it has a right alignment. The ones that are meant for the bottom of pages are usually left aligned, or center. If you want me to change them, I will, but I personally like them better this way. Edit: I looked at some of the main Japanese text pages and they seem to all be on the top as well. Zemalia 19:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

At the top just creates clutter with the animanga infobox. So, yes please, move them to the bottom. Also, like I said in your talk page, this template is not to place in articles that have just a bit of Japanese text (like the name of a character). Kazu-kun 20:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Fixed all the errors I've made so far. Sorry for causing trouble. I'll go find something less destructive to do. Zemalia 20:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Bwa ha ha. I've done so much worse. XD --Masamage ♫ 20:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the fast respond. And don't worry about it. Wikipedia is quite tricky, and it takes some time to get used to all the guidelines and such. Kazu-kun 20:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Moon (arc) move

I think it's fair to say it's safe now. No objections, and how many months has it been? Then we can strike off that issue.--Hitsuji Kinno 02:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Are we being lazy then...? --;; Maybe I should move it. (Which means editing the box....)--Hitsuji Kinno 20:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Basically, yes, because there are a bunch of other things to change along with it. But I've got work to avoid right now, so I'll go ahead and take care of it. X) --Masamage ♫ 20:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Re: PGSM Takeuchi-sensei

She was also the creator of the outfits for(And maybe the forms of) Princess Sailor Moon, and Luna's Human and Senshi state. This is noted on their pages but i'd thought bring it up here to add to whats stated above. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 14:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

We need specific links/pages, not just generalized statements. The more *specific* references we get, the better chance the article will be one of the only GA mangaka rated pages... So pull up the links and pages.--Hitsuji Kinno 22:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I've seen her drawings of human-Luna's costumes, which is pretty good proof, so everyone keep an eye out for those. --Masamage ♫ 00:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Kakyuu, Galaxia, ChibiChibi Appearance Boxs

Simple thing. Should we make Them or or not? I already have a few reasons for yes and no for all three. If you guys have any more arguments in one way or another, feel free to add them. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 14:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Kakyuu

Yes reasons

• More uniform: Only charcters with their own pages with out one. (Applys for all 3))
• She appears in 2 versions of the series and has more than one form

No Reasons

• Only 2 forms for listing
• Her one form only appears in the Manga.
• The box would be quite small.

ChibiChibi

Yes Reasons

• More Uniform: See argument for Kakyuu
• Has 5 forms: Chibichibi, Sailor Chibichibi (moon), Sailor Cosmos, Light of hope, Sword of Sealing.

No Reasons

• Hope of light and Sword of sealing appear in the same episode
• Again small box.

Galaxia

Yes Reasons

• More Uniform: See argument for Kakyuu
• 3 forms. Normal, Possesed/Fully Evil and True.

No Reasons

• Is villan. We've only used these for Heros
• Once more, it would be a small box.

Manual of Style Character Guidelines

At the anime-manga Manual of Style talk page, there is discussion about creating a characters guideline - do people think that Sailor Mercury, our template article, fits the proposed structure? If we ever want to make it featured, we will have to make it fit the relevant style guidelines, so now's our chance to speak up. -Malkinann 00:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Media Release Page?

Is there one? I was looking around for info on some of the CDs and figurines, but I wasn't able to find anything. Does anyone know if I just missed them, or if there's nothing on wikipedia about these products? If there isn't, shouldn't we have something like that for the project? Zemalia 14:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

There isn't any article for that, mainly because the Compleat CD List alone scares the snot out of us. o_O The section Sailor Moon (anime)#Music talks about it some and links to the above page, but there's nothing about action figures and things. I think it'd be a good idea, I just don't know how it's possible to actually pull off. There's so much! --Masamage ♫ 16:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Good point. The music is a lot to cover, but its good we still have some links up to other pages. Maybe it can be a future, future project, when all of the other articles are GA Class... lol. I think the best way to start with Sailor Moon media releases would be to pick something specific, like figurines. At least those can't be fan produced... well anyways. There's other stuff like the Trading Card Game as well (I remember having some of the sets myself) and official merchandise. Would be hard to locate, but its an idea anyways. I'll see what kind of info I can gather on the figurines for now. Should I start a stub article, or keep it to the test page for now? Zemalia 02:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe a test page while we figure out? Oh, and you'll probably be interested to know about Sailor Moon Collectible Card Game. :) --Masamage ♫ 04:40, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The character guidelines draft (see above) seems to be very interested in toy releases and suchlike. :( As of 1998, there were over 5000 products released for Sailor Moon. (Grigsby, 1998) This is also something that's a bit scary. -Malkinann 20:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

We must be obsessed

I took a look at the other wikipedia language entries.. the only one that gets close to our insanity is the Spanish page...

I did find the image on: http://pt.wiki.x.io/wiki/Sailor_Moon of the Sailor Suits kind of interesting. What's also interesting is that the Asian countries put a lot of weight into the list that Takeuchi-sensei repeated over and over again. That is astrology, the likes the dislikes, the blood type, etc. But I still wonder why we are showing more mania healthy obsession than any other of the countries. I mean Brazil is also obsessed... what is it about us as a group that spurred a project... O.o;; Or are we all psychotic. ^.~--Hitsuji Kinno 17:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikimoon copyright violation on ChibiChibi

Wikimoon seems to have (accidentally) copied in parts our ChibiChibi article.  :( I've reported it to them at [2], but I thought I should just let WP:SM know. -Malkinann (talk) 23:11, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

There's no such thing as copyright violation on Wikipedia. Wikipedia articles are under the GFDL license, so anyone can use the content as long as they don't profit from it. Kazu-kun (talk) 22:39, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that sounds right. We just can't copy from WikiMoon. --Masamage ♫ 00:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

But it "requires all copies and derivatives to be available under the same license.", which isn't the case with WikiMoon. -Malkinann (talk) 20:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, hmm. You're right, that does seem weird. Other people certainly can't suddenly apply an unfree liscence to our material. --Masamage ♫ 07:50, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, Creative Commons and GFDL are not compatible between each other, so we can't copy from CC, nor they can copy from GFDL. However, lists are usually considered not "copyrightable" unless there is a certain degree of reasoning (a list of chronologically sorted albums cannot be copyrighted because it is public knowledge, but a list of the most important songs of the 20th century could be because they would be sorted by a criteria that is decided by the original creator. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 16:44, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Found another good source

Just thought I should give everyone a heads up on a translation of the Materials collection that I found. I've been going around citing a whole bunch of stuff in the articles that was relevant and in here, and maybe other people might want to have a look at it. It can be found here[3]. That's it for now. Oh, and maybe someone could archive this talk page.. its starting to get a bit big and I'm no good at archiving. Zemalia (talk) 17:56, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Cosmos

People are trying to remove the stuff on the ChibiChibi page that says Sailor Cosmos isn't necessarily Usagi. This is important and easy to source, so please help come up with the sources and phrasing to make it work. I don't know SM websites that well. --Masamage ♫ 17:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I asked for a reference, and you brought this site. This is what I said about it:

"I took a look at the new reference, and I found that not only it doesn't back up your claim (that Naoko's statement is unclear) but also supports the opposite, ponting out that this argument (that Sailor Cosmos could be a Sailor Moon different from Usagi) has no basis. From the site:

Usagi is the only character who is thought of as the real Sailor Moon in the manga and anime. Sailor Chibi Moon does not officially get the title of Sailor Moon in those continuities. If there is not a good reason for us to think that Ms. Takeuchi meant to refer to another character besides Usagi when she said "Sailor Moon" at the Comic-Con, then there is no reason to think that she meant another person.) I responded to the arguments simply because I wished to show their weaknesses.

Sorry, but I'm removing the claim, as it is only an unsourced opinion. If the article implies that Usagi is Sailor Cosmos, so be it. Wikipedia doesn't really care about that (it's all about attribution), and even your reference supports it. Don't get mad at me, I just want the same as you do; the article to improve."

In your latest rewording you keep using this site to back up your claim, but, as I said before, that site is trying to prove the opposite. I think my complaint is justified. Who says Naoko's statement is unclear? This obviously needs a reference (explicitly stating that Naoko's statement is unclear). Kazu-kun 17:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Uh, that was my first attempt at finding a citation. You're making it sound like I think it's the only possible source. There's a ton of information about this, but it's all scattered across message boards instead of collected together in a website. Since we can't cite forums, I'm asking for help and waiting to see what people can come up with. You just chill until we figure something out. --Masamage ♫ 20:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

This "You just chill" was a bit rude, but whatever. Tell you what, I don't think we can find reference for the claim that Naoko was unclear, but I do believe there's more than one site we could use to back up the claim that this topic (Usagi = Sailor Cosmos) is subject to debate. I'm all about rewording the paragraph to reflect that, once we get the references. Is that enough compromise for you? Kazu-kun 21:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I just hope Hitsuji Kinno gets back online soon, 'cause she's the one who knows what she's doing when it comes to this. --Masamage ♫ 23:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

This should clear things up (I added this to the end of the sentance):, However it is Unknown if she is Usagi or Chibiusa, or just an Heir to the title. Its saying We don't know and have no way of knowing until she releases more info on her to us which is likely not going to happen. She says that she's Sailor Moon... But she doesn't say that she is Usagi or Chibiusa (Who we know takes the title, well sorta). She never said yes or no. Now isn't that VERY unclear for you? Lego3400: The Sage of Time 15:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

*cough* *blushes*... umm... I was playing Sims 2 and creating Chibiusa Sim... ^^;; Beside the point... sorry for being AWOL. Kazu-kun brought up Ian Miller's site. He has several huge issues. (I should have written the references part better). First of all he uses references that are from the 70's. I debated with him once and I checked all his sources. He uses references dating from 1970's, 1980's and even a ffew from the 60's. He says he doesn't know any Japanese himself, never has taken a class in his life, and has pretty much antagonized the majority of he Sailormoon community... by proclaiming his theories are the right ones and never taking any advice or corrections from anyone else's but e-mailing everyone in sight whom he views wrong and "correcting them." This culminated in the greatest blunder when he insisted that "Ginzuishou" meant "silver water stone." failing to see that "zuishou" meant crystal and sulked on sailormoon.org in the late 1990's. Even with references from Japaese dictionaries, it's still posted on his website and he reposted it on newsgroups. So discount him as a source. Diies Gaudii has several huge problems, but I'll get around to arguing why with references on the references page. (He also created animosity towards me by e-mailing me, sulking, blocking me, posting my e-mail without my permission, then quoting this from the e-mail out of context and assuming my given name was"Kim" which was the funniest blunder I've seen to date (I bet he'd still insist my name is Kim--when I KNOW it's not...)--beside the point.

Getting back to subject, the point is that there IS a debate. You can check out my userpage I posted up everything I know up on there. This is why you can't be definitive. There are three different theories, and I can name te major people in the Sailormoon theory with these theories. First, Alex Glover argues that she is Usagi, as does Nishi Rajan. Both were well-known and often cited for their expertise on the subject. Particularly Nishi Rajan. Nishi Rajan was most cited in the 90's for herwell-laid out thory, howeverI met her face to face and she admits fully it's to be debated. Then there is Lunar Archivist, whose really nice about the whole thing and citation crazy. His Japanese isn't as good as Nisi Rajan, but he has really good search abilities, and uses up-to-date or primary sources and tries his hardest not to lan towards too much speculation. His theoy is much like Nishi Rajan, but with different theories. Yumeko of ASMR is also really good she knows her manga front and back very, very well. Her theory is the combination theory. She backs this up with lots of citation and sources. Paprini (who has a wikipedia user page, BTW), has her own theory, which she also cites with sources, and is a variation on the third theory. I've met and seen people with tons of theories, if you want a citation of all of them... I think that would take up the rest of the cosmos page. The large problem with the cosmos debate is that none of the fans who are experts on Sailormoon arealso experts on Japanese modes of communication. Hitoshi Doi is the closest, but doesn't really read the manga (I e-mailed him at the start of my Sailormoon fandom.) Dessa is also good for this too, but her theory is often in flux... well she's working on editing it so that all of the peices and siputes fit. Naoko has NEVER definitively stated that Sailor Cosmos is anyone. She just said she was Sailor Moon and that it was "complicated". This raises more questions than answers. This is why I ask her every year who Sailor Cosmos is. TT;; This year I couldn't because I had mounds of school work. *cries in corner*. I'm pushing people who meet her to ask, I asked Stu Levy whom I worked for as an intern before he went to Japan, but he couldn't ask her since she was busy. I pushed a friendin the animation industry to contact Tadano whom he met to ask Takeuchi-sensei. But he was reluctant. I'm now pushing Lunar Archivist to also ask Taeuchi when they set up the meeting, he's promised me to ask and get a direct answer. Above all, all these people, even Ian Miller, in his stubbornness all recognize that it's a debate. How do I know this? I e-mailed them. I asked them, I debated with them, and most of them had tons of fun doing it. It's a joke on sailormoon.org to debate about Sailor Cosmos.This is why it has to stay a debate, because most of the SM community has decided to wait for official confirmation from Takeuchi-sensei. Even if sh says she doesn't know or if she says she forgot, that's official. So I beg everyone to wait. I am pushing the right buttons to try to get an answer and get tat answer published. Other things to ask are crystal lore... an I doubt she thought about the timeline, because she mentioned it herself that she couldn't do it well. So wait it out instead of warring, keep the original text. If you have any questions, talk page me, I have all the references on my talk page that I could manage without burnout and have taken Japanese language and am taking Culture and Communication class.

P.S. Do you need me to beg Yumeko and Nishi Rajan to update their theories and citations? I can ask them... and whomever else you want. I was going to ask all the people I know to post their theories on my userpage dedicated to it. I can cancel that and ask them to just post it up on webspace.... --Hitsuji Kinno 15:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, the "Kazu-kun brought up Ian Miller's site" is a misunderstanding, as that site is the reference Masamage brought when I asked for it. But let's put that aside. I have never doubted that this is a controversial subject, which is the reason I said "I do believe there's more than one site we could use to back up the claim that this topic (Usagi = Sailor Cosmos) is subject to debate. I'm all about rewording the paragraph to reflect that". I personally believe that Usagi is Sailor Cosmos, but the issue was more about references and wording. My initial complaint was specifically about this unsourced statement: "It is unclear, however, whether the "future Sailor Moon" Takeuchi was referring to is Usagi herself or an heir to the title." But who says Naoko is unclear? Even if every SM fan thinks that way, without reference, such statemet is just original research. Now this has been reworded, so there's really no point on discussing it further, but I wanted to get that clear. The paragraph, though, still needs some work, specially to get rid of the "however", which is used in that way wikipedia says is a big "no no".1 I'll give it a try later and see what I can come up with.

Also, I want to thank Hitsuji Kinno for being such a nice girl. Everyone else pretty much wanted to kill me for the sole mention of the Sailor Cosmos issue (j/k).^^ Kazu-kun 21:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I told you that I knew his arguments were crummy. Like I said then, I was only proving that it was something being discussed. --Masamage ♫ 22:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I've replaced the stuff about an heir to the title with a general statement saying "there are multiple theories in SM fandom as to what this means". I figure if we state this, then cite some of the multiple theories but not discuss them, then we should be right - staying out of OR, POV, and CRUFT.-Malkinann 23:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I never wanted to kill you, I just gave you fair warning that the debate was old and unlikely to be resolved this time around. ^_^ JuJube 00:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

For someone in culture and communication class, I don't think anyone wanted to kill you. Reading between the lines I think what was said and done were not congruent. Masamage merely wanted you to realize there was a debate, however you were asking for solid references. Neither of you seemed t be able to see what the other person wanted. I strongly suggest next time you bring it up on the talk page, work it out then make the edits. When I disagree with something, I bring it up on the talk page before making edits... just a general note... I believe that as Masamage's problem with your behavior. *shrugs* My last paper was on paralinguistics of the internet. Be free to correct me there. In the end it saves a lot of time. i.e. Why can't we all just get along?--Hitsuji Kinno 02:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Are people happy with my idea of a compromise? ("There are multiple theories in the Sailor Moon fandom as to what this means.[citation needed] ") As it hasn't been reverted multiple times, I'm assuming so. Kitsuji Kinno, could you pretty-please get the Sailor Cosmos theorists to publish their theories on a website, so we can go "as to what this means. [cite theory 1][cite theory2][cite theory 3]"?? To my mind, this would be proving that there are multiple theories, without indulging in theorising on the page itself and it'd give people who are interested in Sailor Cosmos's identity a jumping-off point. -Malkinann 12:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's a very good idea. Just putting it somewhere on an external website so we can cite that and be done with it would help a lot. --Masamage ♫ 17:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Sure, here is one... http://www.usagiandmamoru.com/cosmos/ (most cited for the is Usagi fan camp). Lunar Archivist is still working on typing up his (Variant of 1), Ian Miller probably should be discounted due to several factors (His version is 4)... Dessa promised to work on hers but it's a bit slow going (this is outliar theory that started on theory 4), I'll ask Papirini (Combination theory) and I'm not sure about Yumeko (She knows her stuff, but she's not apt to type up the whole thing.). Alex Glover has kind of dropped out of the SM community a bit (He also has some trouble remembering what he translated sometimes... like he forgot he translated the fact about Ogata Megumi hooking up Takuchi and Togashi... ^^;;). Unfortunately theory 2 and 4 in their pure forms had the majority of the people leave that camp for either 1 or 3... I have no idea why, but I'm fairly sure there are still some people who believe she's not related at all and that she's just a descendant. Ken Aromdee isn't qualified as well as Hitoshi Doi. I did start the debate on ASMR which should be cataloged but that's not objective enough for a Wikipedia page since I participated. I'll see if I can push people to do it a bit faster. --Hitsuji Kinno 20:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, we can cite something you worked on. The only stipulation is that people other than you have to want to use it, which frankly I don't anticipate being a problem. ^^ That looks like a solid citation for the Usagi theory. I thought Ian Miller fell in that camp too? --Masamage ♫ 20:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

He might have changed his theory a bit... but he's not creditable... I'll see what I can dig up first, if we have to, we'll cite him too. Dessa said she'd do hers (roughly parallel universe time possibility character from the future...which does have standing on the manga timeline theory, which has a tarot card basis and circumvents the crystal lore problems). I'll ask Papirini and Lunar Archivist. Lunar Archivist has a variety of theory 1. Finding other people who support theory 2 and 4 is going to be difficult though. Among the older fan community theory 3 is more popular among the manga fanatics. The newer camp likes 1 more. 2 and 4 have kind of dropped to the wayside.... I no longer know anyone who supports these (descendant and not related theories respectively). Yumeko argued one with a twist (she twisted crystal lore to argue that there are two ginzuishou... therefore making it possible)... but I'm not sure linking message boards is wise. Several of her theories are actually pretty well laid out.--Hitsuji Kinno 22:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Reset indent, note that Dessa said that hers can't be finished until she's done organizing for the con in Seattle. (She's on the board so she's doing finances). (She'd be part of the fourth theory). She has a large part of it done. Papirini also volunteered, but it'll take a while (Combination), and I'm still waiting for Lunar Archivist (variation of it, timeline dependent.) to show up. Should we also include message board stuff, or is that too fan crufty to include as reference? --Hitsuji Kinno 13:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe the article of mine Hitsuji mentioned has already been incorporated into the article on Sailor Cosmos since her comment, but just to emphasize one subtle point that's gone unnoticed...

Even if we assume that Naoko Takeuchi "forgot" the rule about two individuals being unable to coexist in the same time period (which is a completely valid argument), what we can't ignore is the fact that the grandfather paradox is in effect. When the revived Tuxedo Mask committed suicide on command by hurling himself into the Galaxy Cauldron, this immediately caused Sailor Chibi Moon to be erased from existence since, with Mamoru dead, she would never be conceived in the first place. By extension, this means that every future heir to the title of Sailor Moon related to Chibi Usa by blood would also cease to exist. However, Sailor Cosmos does not seem to be affected at all. This can only mean one of three things:

• Sailor Cosmos is so powerful that she can singlehandedly prevent the grandfather paradox from affecting her.
• If Sailor Cosmos is a direct descendent of Usagi Tsukino, then she is related only to Usagi by blood and not to Mamoru or Chibi Usa. Barring an immaculate conception, this implies that Usagi would eventually remarry and that Sailor Cosmos would be fathered by an undisclosed male third party.
• Sailor Cosmos is either a reincarnated Usagi Tsukino or future reincarnation of Princess Serenity. This means that Sailor Cosmos and Sailor Moon share the same animating force/life force/soul/spirit/whatever but not the same physical body.

Hopeless romantic that I am, I'm voting for number three, if only because I believe that I doubt Usagi would ever fall in love with or have children by anyone else other than Mamoru. ^_^ Lunar Archivist (talk) 19:48, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Moon Timeline?

Something to think about after we have most of the pages up to code... Precedents:

• Chronology_of_the_Doctor_Who_universe
• List_of_fictional_timelines

We can bring out our inner geeks, and talk about paradoxes, etc. Also It might entice Lunar Archivist to join this project who is the master of such things.--Hitsuji Kinno 21:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

That would be super-fun, but it scares the crap out of me! XD --Masamage ♫ 21:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

True, which is why we'd do it when we're bored, AND we'd have to start 3 separate pages too.. one for manga, one for anime, one for PGSM. --Hitsuji Kinno 03:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Eek, surely not? Look how insane the Doctor Who one is. I'm sure we could just have spearate sections for each series. --Masamage ♫ 04:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not keen on this idea... even with just the anime timeline, we'd probably have to decide what the heck happened when Usagi made her wish to be normal again... did the whole world get turned back a year, or what? It'd have to be painstakingly researched in order to avoid OR, it'd cause a lot of energy-draining-drama, and even then I think Takeuchi said she'd flubbed the timeline.-Malkinann 15:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

there was a play in the alen arc with the dark kingdom charicters in it so the civilans remember what happend ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 16:18, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Ooh, really? When is that? The only play I remember is the Snow White one, and not very clearly. --Masamage ♫ 19:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

its the one with the four headed monster and the penultimate episode of the alen arc ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 22:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem though is that the anime disregards the Ail and En arc in the SuperS Specials. I was just putting this idea out there. I doubt we'd get to it for several years.--Hitsuji Kinno 19:59, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Some parts of it need to be recognized, though, like how all the Senshi have their memories back before the beginning of the Black Moon arc. I think using it to assume the civilians remember the Dark Kingdom is probably safe. But yeah, I think this would be fun to have as a later goal, once we've cleared out some of our current projects. --Masamage ♫ 20:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I should note that the Doctor Who one is up for being featured... so that's why it looks so intimidating. I know that fans of Doctor Who work on that kind of thing for *years* since the series started, which was back in the early 60's. Sailor Moon has barely reached it's 10th anniversary... so you cn see why Doctor Who looks like that.--Hitsuji Kinno 20:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, SM has passed its 15th anniversary in Japan. --  Denelson83  03:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

But only 10 years since it was completed, which is probably what she meant. I guess that's more a coming-of-age-day? --Masamage ♫ 05:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

You'll also notice that clicking on most of the redlinks on that page gives you a 'this article has been deleted. are you SURE you want to recreate it?' message... Which doesn't bode well, I think. We could work on a copy in wikiproject-space and then launch it? -Malkinann 01:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

That's a good idea, yeah. Later, though? --Masamage ♫ 01:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this is a good idea. While Doctor Who, even though it is *very* contradictory within its own canon, at least tries to give dates and time estimates, Sailor Moon pretty much never does this. I think it would be impossible to write a fact-based article on most of its timeline just due to the fact that the series own lack of clarity makes timeline estimates a choice on what theory you subscribe to (i.e. did time rewind after the Dark Kingdom arc?) Rebochan 20:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

We'll deal with that too *when we get done with what we have* first. This is a future, future, future project... after we've got what we want done in front of us done. As for dates, time lines don't have to be specific dates. It can also be a choronology of rough events. The Materials Collection actually *does* give a rough timeline to start off with, so it won't be *too* difficult. --Hitsuji Kinno 00:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it would be a relative timeline. (Also, the first-arc issue wouldn't be that hard; it definitely doesn't reset in the manga, and for the anime, we can just say "time may or may not roll back at this point" and talk about why that might be. When in doubt, just say what you know.) --Masamage ♫ 01:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

After several years of work in my spare time, I've actually managed to create a fixed timeline for the manga version. Granted, it's not completely devoid of a few assumptions, educated guesses, and speculation, but it is internally consistent, follows a series of self-imposed guidelines with minimal bending of the rules, makes heavy use of in-series evidence, is extensively annotated (over 270 references) and incorporates all events from Codename: Sailor V and Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon (including side stories) as well as other series which ostensibly take place within the same fictional universe, such as Maria and The Cherry Project. Without getting into too much detail, the events from Codename: Sailor V and Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon predominantly take place between May 1992 and September/October 1995 and Chibi Usa originally came from the year 2902.

I'm currently working on an extremely rough draft for a fixed timeline for the live-action version. The definitive version for the anime series is only in its planning stage, but will be a floating timeline, as opposed to the other two. Hitsuji already knows about quite a bit of this, but Malkinann and Masamage, the two of you should talk to me via instant messaging so we can talk. I'll leave my contact information in my online profile. :) Lunar Archivist (talk) 17:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Unlaunched Manga article

Is anyone currently working on this? I have a couple of ideas of how it could be improved, like volume covers and comparisons to the anime for starters. This is something I'd definately be up on working on and improving. Zemalia 15:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I think Hitsuji wanted to head that up; specifically, it'd be analogous to the List of Sailor Moon episodes article. We do already have a Sailor Moon (manga) article, though, and it could probably use some expansion. :) What did you have in mind? (Comparisons between the two would, I think, be most useful in the individual Story Arc articles, which also need lots and lots of help.) --Masamage ♫ 17:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow, it does look like it could use some clean up and additions. I think a manga/anime comparison would be a fantastic add on, but I'm not sure where to put it: within the acts, or as a seperate sub-header. Also, maybe a section on the re-release. It would help clean up a couple of the volume sections and there are a couple of things that could be added to it, such as the fact that special extras such as postcards and stickers were included with the re-releases. What do you think?Zemalia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zemalia (talk • contribs) 19:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

So far we've kinda tried to avoid getting into too much plot in either that article or in Sailor Moon (anime), mainly because there's just too much info to cram in there, and because they'd overlap eachother; that's why we went with the five individual arc pages, which already feature comparisons between the two series (see Sailor Stars), although again, everything can be improved. We've also talked about creating a side-stories page for stuff like the SuperS specials, Chibiusa's Picture Diaries, etc.

Meanwhile, I love the idea of creating a section for the rerelease--we are definitely sorely lacking in info on that, and shame on us for it. :) I'd say if you want to help with that, by all means, dive in. I'll try to help out too, with what I know, and Hitsuji and others would be good contributors as well. --Masamage ♫ 20:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I finished the base information--that's not the issue. The issue is that I have no idea where to place it, and no concrete decisions were made. Since the idea for individual Sailor Moon episodes was thrown out, then idea of doing them by volume was also thrown out. Putting them under by arc will look messy... I think there was a test page. So I'm basically waiting for the consensus on what to do with said typed out information. To my credit I did put it up and I dumped it from my Sailor Moon Manga FAQ. Shinsouban information included. Any ideas, I'll welcome... it's all there, it's on wikipedia, now where to put it...--Hitsuji Kinno 01:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Check this out... List of Naruto chapters (Part I)... how does that look for a model? -Malkinann 10:40, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

There is a discussion at WT:ANIME currently about developing a template analogous to the {{Japanese episode list}}, but for manga chapters. Please participate here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Anime_and_manga#Discussion_of_format_for_Lists_of_chapters -Malkinann (talk) 22:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The new template is {{Graphic novel list}} - does it look like it will serve our purposes? -Malkinann (talk) 21:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I didn't want to interfere with the manga page, but I thought all the chapters of Sailor Moon should be listed somewhere, so I made List of Sailor Moon chapters. I own all the manga, so it wasn't much trouble compiling all the data. I can also make a page for all the ani-mangas that were made as well if anyone is interested.Grapeofdeath (talk) 23:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow! Thank you very much for all your hard work on that! :D I can only think of about four things that would improve the page - a longer lead, that it should include the 2003 Japanese republished edition somehow (we may have to ask at the anime project for help on that anyway), MOAR pink (okay, kind of optional, but still!), and that we should write volume summaries. -Malkinann (talk) 07:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not very good at summarizing things, so these would be very hard for me. I wouldn't mind anyone else helping with them. If there's anything else that you need a large amount of data compiled into lists and tables, I can always try to work on that. This could include trying to find the english air dates for the series, but I'm not sure if anyone wants that table to be messed with.Grapeofdeath (talk) 05:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't expecting you to do the summaries - we can all do the summaries from the project subpage. I think that we should probably try and find the original English airdates for the List of Sailor Moon episodes, but the trouble is finding a reliable source which states the original air dates, not just the US airdates (as SM also aired in Canada). Another page which could be tabularised is Sailor Moon musicals - on that talk page there's been an attempt for some time to adapt {{Japanese episode list}} for the musicals, but there's been a halt on that discussion for what kind of information should be presented in the tables (dates or seasons, for example). -Malkinann (talk) 00:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Many people have been able to get around that by putting English Airdate into their table, so it doesn't matter which country it was in first as long as it was in english. So far this is the best page I've found so far: http://epguides.com/SailorMoon/ I've found several other pages, even imdb, and they all seems to have the same dates. Would these be acceptable? Grapeofdeath (talk) 02:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Really? That's annoying. I'd strongly prefer the original English airdates, if we can find them. That source isn't really appropriate, because it's confusing to read (just check out what happens for episode 200 - all six or so of them...) and doesn't have the correct titles. Unfortunately, SM Uncensored doesn't have the airdates set up in a convenient format. -Malkinann (talk) 05:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

So, the new article makes the chapter-list at Sailor Moon (manga) obsolete. I guess we should clear the redundancy out of there, huh? --Masamage ♫ 18:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Guess so. The information on the side-stories should stay in there for now, though. -Malkinann (talk) 00:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

You might just substitute something like this for lists of the isbns: "These chapters were originally collected in volumes 1-4 and re-released in Shinsōban collections 1-3." Grapeofdeath (talk) 02:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Re-updating the character articles

Hallo! Two items of business!

At WT:ANIME they've discussed delisting our GAs, because the guidelines have been changed to require more out-of-universe info (on character design, reception, and so forth). I was able to beg them off by telling them there is in fact tons of such info and that I know where to get it, which is entirely true. Now that NaNoWriMo is over and I have no classes to be busy with, I figure we'd better get on that. :) So I'll be running a bunch of updates.

Item 1: We need to introduce a specific section for character development and response. So...what's a good name? Actually, "Development and response" seems pretty good, but tell me your thoughts.

Item 2: I think we should remove the height guesses. It's not really appropriate to be citing some laypersons's rough estimate (even if he is important in fandom) when actually these numbers are totally unofficial. Certainly we can mention Makoto and Haruka being insanely tall, and Chibiusa being very very short, but does it really matter whether Minako is a few centimeters taller than Rei?

So those are my thoughts for now. There'll be more later; I want to get a bunch done this winter break. This is just the obvious place to start. :) Masamage ♫ --07:46, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

How about "Conception and creation" and/or "Reception"? They're shorter, and more to the point. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 08:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Those first two both sound in-universe, which makes 'conception' in particular an awkward, awkward word. X) 'Reception' is better than 'response', though. "Development and reception"? --Masamage ♫ 08:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I think they want two sections, one for "Development" and one for "Reception". -Malkinann 10:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Hm, while scrolling through the net, I found this image [4] and some others. Maybe its the development sketch?--Hanaichi 11:37, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a sketch for the anime artists to work from. Her development sketches are mostly in the Materials Collection (which is available here and which I own). There's also some awesome development info in the author notes to the old manga as well as the rereleased ones, a lot of which we already have or know where to find. --Masamage ♫ 18:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've experimentally merged a bunch of new and old information into Sailor Mercury#Development, for a start. How does it look? Are we missing anything obvious? --Masamage ♫ 21:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't like it - it's partially me not liking the change, but I think the jury's still out on whether a separate development section is explicitly needed, or whether the information can just be interspersed at appropriate places (which seems to me to be the more natural way of mentioning things). I think the plan of the new anime character guideline is to put stacks of emphasis on Reception anyway.-Malkinann 22:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Just so we're clear, I'm responding largely to discussion of delisting us over at WT:ANIME. They seemed specifically concerned about the character development, so that's where I'm spooked. WP:MOS-AM doesn't say anything specifically about character pages, but it does say that series pages should have a Production section, and this seems analogous to me. Also I poked into some character FAs (like Padme Amidala) and found this section.

On another note, Malkinann, do you own that Warriors of Legend book? --Masamage ♫ 01:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Boo to the de-listing. I think the development section looks like a good start, but maybe we could add the pictures in from the materials collection to make it look even nicer? Many FA class articles have around three to four pictures and I think it would definitely help the article as a whole. As for more out of universe information, are there any interviews done with the live actors or voice actors about their characters and how they feel about them or interpret them? Because that would be AWESOME content. Zemalia 02:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Good thought; I'll look around for some interviews. (There's an awesome one for Megumi Ogata, but I don't know about anyone else.) Not sure about the images, though--I'm pretty nervous about as many as we have. The Padme article (for example) has four fair-use shots, which is the current number on Ami's article. On the other hand, that really does seem like a notable image to include. I don't know. --Masamage ♫ 02:45, 4 December 2007 (UTC) UPDATE: Oooh, here we go. Some good stuff in the Volume Infinity comments. --Masamage ♫ 02:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Another thing for the reception section! There were annual popularity contests held by the magazines, weren't they? That would definitely be some out of universe content! Also, I'm looking through news sites for articles on how the characters have been recieved. Zemalia 03:33, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

We can always take any delisting to WP:GAR if we feel that the process was not followed. I don't own Warriors of Legend. The conversation at the anime manual of style talk page seems to be focussed on character Reception sections. (and what, exactly does a 'sales figure' mean in terms of a character? etc.) We could perhaps put the 'early designs' image at Sailor Senshi? I've asked at Wikimoon ages ago if anyone knew if the annual popularity contest results were recorded, and I've recieved no response. -Malkinann 05:30, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I've gone ahead with removing the height estimates (Usagi's stays, of course, because it's actually given.) Is there any objection to repeating the modification to Ami's article on everyone else's? If so, what can be done to alleviate it? --Masamage ♫ 21:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess I'm just concerned that if "Reception/influence" is supposed to be "the meat of (the character's) notability." (Anime MOS talk page), that perhaps Reception should be where we focus our efforts (as we already do have development information within the articles.. it's just interspersed with other information.) -Malkinann (talk) 23:23, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we definitely need both. But I worry people aren't finding the development info, because even though we've worked hard to put it there, they keep complaining. --Masamage ♫ 00:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Even though I actually borrowed a book from the library for Mako-chan's... :( sigh Let's give these development sections a go, then. And then we'll see about "Reception", which in the latest draft reads: "Out-of-universe information on responses to, popularity of, and influences upon others. Appearences in other works, poll results, sales figures, etc. are all valid topics here, as are reviews, critical essays, and academic analysis." Thus far, all I've been able to think of is that Rei Ayanami is named after Our Rei. -Malkinann (talk) 10:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

If it helps I have the popularity rankings from the manga... The trouble is that Japanese separate the different forms of the characters as separate. That should be added to the articles too.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 05:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC) P.S. They want to delist our character articles because they are jealous. *jk* ^.~ We did set the bar up fairly high too.

That sounds great! And yeah, it could be listed easily like "She was ranked Xth as Ami and Xth as Sailor Mercury" or something similar. --Masamage ♫ 06:37, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

To cut time, I'll give the full rankings...

Volume 3

1. Sailor Moon 59,100
2. Sailor Venus 44, 828
3. Princess Serenity 43365
4. Sailor Mercury 34034
5. Sailor Jupiter 33225
6. Tsukino Usagi 31882
7. Mizuno Ami 27757
8. Luna 20707
9. Sailor V 20707
10. Aino Minako 20610
11. Kino makoto 16988
12. Tuxedo Mask 14850
13. Hino Rei 14805
14. Sailor Mars 13928
15. Endymion 12307
16. Chiba Mamoru 9983
17. Artemis 7462
18. Queen Serenity 7335
19. Osaka Naru 4448
20. Jadeite 3202

This one goes to 38. The last one is listed as 198.

Volume 7

1. Chibiusa-76,214
2. Sailor Moon-70,965
3. Neo Queen Serenity 48,743
4. Sailor Pluto 45,150
5. Aino Minako 39,923
6. Tsukino Usagi 38,265
7. Sailor Venus 37,407
8. Ami Mizuno 29,823
9. Sailor Mercury 27,502
10. Sailor V 25,908
11. Sailor Jupiter 22,130
12. Kino Makoto 20,844
13. Black Lady 18,680
14. Sailor Mars 17,166
15. Hino Rei 14,680
16. Diana 12,154
17. Luna P 10,570
18. King Endymion
19. Beruche
20. Tuxedo Mask
21. Chiba Mamoru
22. Luna
23. Osaka Naru
24. Esumerade
25. Momo-chan
26. Artemis
27. Sarashina Kotono
28. Prince Diamond
29. Unatsuki
30. Cooan
31. Saffir
32. Asamema Itsutou

This one goes to 50. last character has 198. (It has all the numbers too) You can see the jump in readership, especially considering the increase in the number of characters. It's a bit sad because Umino outranks Mama every time... but there is a definite leaning towards female characters and transformed states. Volume 13 shows where it was being shipped to at the time it was published. That's main page stuff though. There are at least one other, but I can't seem to find it right now. I know that Pallapalla ranked high. That magazine that Ami was in might also be worth a mention from the liner notes. AND maybe something about the Seiyuu voicing the particular character? Like what kind of work went into it? There is a few memorial books that supposedly discuss that. For example Mitsuishi-san said that she had to rev up originally to voice Usagi. Her favorite scene from the time of the interview was Super where Usagi was trying to transform. Hisakawa-san said that she wanted to make Ami more than a girl genius. Takeuchi-sensei also mentioned that she went shopping with them and they had an influence on the Exam battles and building of the characters. So would that count also? If we're going to do this we may as well go over the top...--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 18:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

w00t! Thank you! :D Yes, all of those things sound great. I've actually been trying to incorporate actress information into the 'Actress' sections (like in Sailor Mercury), so more of that would be fun. --Masamage ♫ 19:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest if interviews with actresses is needed, I found one done by Hyper Hobby interviewing Nao Takagi and Yuhka Asami, the longest Sailor Uranus and Neptune in the musicals here [5]. I think at one point Nao said in the omake of her last musical (Mugen Gakuen) that acting as Haruka for 5 years got to know herself better. I'll go dig up more information, theres heaps somewhere out there.--Hanaichi 03:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I've had a go at incorporating the popularity polls for Naru Osaka, is that the correct way of doing so? -Malkinann (talk) 23:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Hm. Technically yes, it looks good, but I wonder if her rankings are high enough in comparison for it to really be noteworthy? There's probably a golden ratio of some kind. --Masamage ♫ 05:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I reckoned it was some of the real world information that we're supposed to try to add to the list of minor characters when we can. I've also put Rei's popularity figures in her article. -Malkinann (talk) 06:06, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, hm. That could be. Maybe say out-of-how-many voters, then? That'd help with the context. (Looks like 38 and 50 characters in the two surveys respectively, but I'm not sure I'm reading that right. I'll check my own copy of v.7 tomorrow, too. My v.3 is in English, so it's unlikely to be helpful.) --Masamage ♫ 06:41, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

So, heads-up: tomorrow I'll take a whack at giving some of the other Senshi their development sections. We'll see how far I get. --Masamage ♫ 05:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

So far, the anime/manga mos talk page likes Sailor Mercury's development section. -Malkinann (talk) 06:06, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Aww, neat! Thanks for pointing that out. ^_^ --Masamage ♫ 06:41, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, is it just me, or does the new WP:FICT seem to say that the very existance of merchandise is an indicator of notability in itself? (without needing sales figures of said merchandise) -Malkinann (talk) 09:41, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Huh. One could certainly make an argument to that effect. I wonder how to cite the merchandise stuff.

In other news, all of the Inner Senshi now have Development sections. I almost did Mamoru next, but I was scared off by how lousy his bio is. It's like three reorgs behind. X) Oh well, I'll take a break to run some other errands and think about how the Outers' new sections should be developed. It'll be structured a little differently because they were based on the existing Senshi rather than being invented entirely on their own; there'll be a little less exciting information available. There's still some, though. --Masamage ♫ 01:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I bit the bullet and asked at WT:FICT... might be good if we kept an eye on that. I've started off some Reception sections with the poll results. -Malkinann (talk) 01:34, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, need some help here. I cannot find any development information on the Outer Senshi. I've just dug through all of the artbooks (including Infinity, which might have some if the text weren't untranslated, and the Materials Collection). All I can find is that Michiru's hair is supposed to look like seaweed, and that Setsuna once wore a dress seen in a Naomi Campbell shot. There are "development" paintings of Haruka and Michiru, in which Naoko says their faces and personalities are all wrong, but it's the sort of spirit-detail only the artist can see. She doesn't say exactly what's off about them.

So do we have any other handy sources? Interviews? Something? --Masamage ♫ 19:22, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Haruka would be the easiest of the four, I think - apparently in some Italian magazine called Kappa she explicitly said that Haruka was based on the Takarazuka male-role players Also, according to Wikimoon, before Takeuchi made the Outers, she was sent fanart of Otaku Senshi Outers. They attribute this to her liner notes in volume 10. We could talk about, for Sets, that in the manga she was a student at KO, but this was scrapped in the anime. Or that Hotaru was a cyborg in the manga, but wasn't strongly implied to be so in the anime. -Malkinann (talk) 21:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Haruka was fairly easy--thanks for the great link! I've also managed a slightly shorter, but still substantial, section for Michiru. Onward~ --Masamage ♫ 19:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

There's a rather lengthy German anime/manga article I translated many years ago but never posted online which also mentions the Takarazuka angle. I believe Naoko said she wanted to create a composite character - the best female friend and fairy tale prince all rolled into one - and that Haruka Ten'ou was the end product of that desire. She also made a reference to this during her question and answer panel at the 1998 San Diego Comic Con, and said that Haruka and Michiru were meant to be two opposite but complementary characters. This was reiterated, I believe, in a sidebar panel featuring rough sketches of the characters from one of the volumes of the manga. Lunar Archivist (talk) 21:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Awesome! I don't suppose you could publish your translation on Sheer Lunacy! some time? It'd make it a lot easier to cite if it was online somewhere. -Malkinann (talk) 02:29, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that the interview got lost somewhere in all my crap. However, here's a quick and dirty retranslation of the passage in question (the boldface emphasis is mine). Kind of crude, but I think the gist of it is clear:

A: Why are there so many female characters in the series?

N.T.: That's simply a question of personal taste - I like drawing girls a lot more. Now, I can't claim that I don't like men (laughs), but there's simply nothing that's as much fun for me as drawing women. My editor is already always complaining that I should incorporate more pretty boys since they're shoujo manga, after all...

A: So was Haruka a compromise in this direction?

N.T.: A little (laughs). Haruka is the more dominant personality of the two, she's more active in the foreground than Michiru, who rather placidly, but strongly, remains in the background. Since all of the Sailor Soldiers are still relatively young girls that sometimes don't really known what they should do, I wanted to create a kind of big sister figure for them. Someone to whom they could turn when they don't know how to proceed, but who could also say a few clear words to them if necessary. Of course, the very unique role of the two as Sailor Soldiers then comes into play as well. Characters like Haruka, these rough, masculine women, a little like the actresses who portray men in Takarazuka theater, are greatly loved in Japan, particularly among female audiences as well. They embody the female best friend and the fairy tale prince in one, so to speak. I long had the desire to integrate such a character into one of my works. This as opposed to Mamoru, who - in the manga - completely represents my personal ideal of a man: strong, silent, unshakable - a little like Captain Harlock...

This interview first appeared in the July/August 1999 issue (alternatively known as either Issue 4/99 or Issue 30) of the German anime/manga magazine AnimaniA. The interview took place in Paris, France while Naoko Takeuchi and Go Nagai were attending the "Animation Days of the Japanese Cultural Institute" event there that was dedicated to them. The translator was Mrs. Okishita from Kodansha and the interviewer was Stefanie Holzer, the publication's then subtitute editor-in-chief. The magazine was published by Weird Visions Media Verlags- und Medienvertriebs GmbH (Weird Visions Media Publishing and Distribution L.L.C.). Lunar Archivist (talk) 05:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow! Thank you for quickly translating it - I'm afraid it's only whetted my appetite for the whole thing, but I can wait... ;) This might seem like a dumb question, but does the interview itself have a title? "Interview with Naoko Takeuchi" or whatever - the citation template isn't displaying properly without it. :( -Malkinann (talk) 08:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

• Holzer, Stefanie (1999). "Interview mit Naoko Takeuchi". AnimaniA (30). {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

Oddly enough, the title of the article is exactly what you said (or the German equivalent thereof, anyway). :) I've updated the citation template above by making a few quick corrections, one being to the spelling of the interviewer (she writes "Stephanie" the German way, i.e. with an "f" rather than a "ph") and correcting my inadvertent misspelling of the translator's name (it's "Okishita" with two is and not "Okashita" with two as). I suggest we consider leaving the latter out, though, since we don't know her full name. Also, while I'm confident my own translation of the interview is accurate, I strongly suggest we paraphrase rather than quote directly considering that the "translation telephone game" is taking place here, i.e. this is the English translation of the German translation of the Japanese original. ^_^ Lunar Archivist (talk) 06:14, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

We are already quoting the English translation of the Kappa interview, too. I just thought that was a really cool phrase - female best friend and fairy tale prince in one. I've chucked it in, and the "complementary yet opposite" stuff below. I'm not so good at paraphrasing, and they're just so good! -Malkinann (talk) 02:05, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

On a related note, the information on the side panel from Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon Volume 9, Act 29, Page 31, reads:

Haruka Ten'ou

In Grade 10 at Juuban Senior High School.

Born on January 27th.

Aquarius. (16 years old)

Inseparable friend of Michiru, in whom she has total confidence. Accompanies Michiru on the piano when she plays the violin.

Michiru Kaiou

In Grade 10 at S Private Girls' School.

Born on March 6th.

Pisces. (16 years old)

She supports Haruka.

Two opposite and complementary characters.

Rough sketches taken from one of the first drafts, November '93.

While this is a translation from the French version and information from an early draft of the characters, we can ignore the information about their academic backgrounds but the remaining details seem to fit the official canonical versions of both characters. Lunar Archivist (talk) 11:45, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Seiyuu...

http://www.seiyuu.com/megumi/v2i02.htm

Mitsuishi talks about Usagi there. Just a litytle, but it mentions how she and Takeuchi were close enough for her to see the new designs...

http://www.sailormoon.ws/archives/111203.html

Han Keiko on Sailor Moon.

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=zIZP2Kwv-Jk Mitsuishi Kotono... (yay! The psyche herself up is here too), Furuya Tohru, Han Keiko (Wow... they told her to play her like a human from the start...) http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=39pXClkZoqc Naru, Hisakawa Aya, Tomizawa Michie... This is enough to make you want to watch the whole series over again... Ok amusement... not translated. http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=3sKnHm-xKOw http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=l_jgM9bJv_M These are goldmind...

http://www.movietome.com/people/115449/rica-fukami/trivia.html The quote about injuring her vocal chords. But when was that?

I'll add others as I find them. --Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 07:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

There are now four other GA-rated character articles - Sakura Haruno, Sasuke Uchiha and Yamucha being the most recent. Is there anything on their pages that's missing for the Inner Senshi? -Malkinann (talk) 02:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm comparing Sasuke and Ami, Appearances in other media seem to be missing in Mercury's article. Also, maybe some mention of toys and figures should be added. I know there are Gashapon figures out there (and I do have them!) and numerous items depicting the senshi produced. Then there is the plot overview, which hasn't been added to any senshi article, which is in line with WP:PLOT, although a brief one might suffice. Other then that, everything else is OK.--Hanaichi 09:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Isn't their "appearances in other media" limited to the Naruto video games, though? and a fan doujin for Yamcha. It seems that Amazon is considered enough of a RS for GA, though, which is good... Unless there are any fansites devoted to Sailor Moon merchandise we could cite? -Malkinann (talk) 09:34, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Naoko Takeuchi's appearance at the 1998 San Diego Comic Convention

I'm not quite sure this merits its own section, but considering that it may answer several questions that have been floating around Sailor Moon fan circles for the past decade or so, I figure it's worth a shot mentioning here. It'll also give us an opportunity to clear up one misconception about the event that's been bugging me ever since it the first article summarizing it was written.

Back in 1998, I attended the question and answer panel that Naoko Takeuchi gave and made an audio recording of the entire session from the front row, something which, while I've mentioned it elsewhere before, is not widely known. Unfortunately, a combination of a crappy tape recorder, background noise and static, Naoko's soft-spokeness, and her not speaking directly into the microphone more often than not have resulted in her being unintelligible most of the time. I would be willing to provide an electronic copy of the recording (or a hard copy if I can access duplication equipment) to anyone with either access to professional audio processing equipment and/or the technical knowhow who'd be willing to take a crack at the thankless task of cleaning it up.

This recording would prove valuable to WikiProject Sailor Moon because it would allow our Japanese-speaking members to directly translate what Naoko Takeuchi said. All existing articles and individuals that I know of that have quoted something she said during this event - myself included - are technically relying on the accuracy of the panel's resident translator, Stu Levy. While I doubt he purposely mistranslated anything she said, given the dubious track record of MixxZine/Tokyopop, I'd prefer a second option just to be sure. Also, since several long-standing questions and controversies - such as Haruka and Michiru's relationship and Sailor Cosmos' identity - were directly addressed by Naoko, we could potentially put these arguments to rest.

So, if anyone's interested in this, use the contact information in my profile to drop me a line or post a comment here so we can figure out how to proceed. Lunar Archivist (talk) 21:29, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Notes on the series

I'm doing it for my website... but I thought the project might also be interested. For example in the second half of R, second episode, Usagi calls Chibiusa, Chibiusa first, which contradicts the manga. Mamoru is second, *then* Chibiusa objects and *only* accepts it when Mamoru calls her that... and gives his justification. Ami's dream to be a doctor is in the third episode, where its mentioned "to be like her mother." Ami directly says she's indecisive, especially when it comes to tough decisions. Chibiusa also directly says, "I'm not a kid anymore." which may or may not be a reference to her age. I'm also collecting the attacks of the enemies as I go, such as "Dark Power" and "Kooan Dark Power flip" and "Dark Fire" fro Kooan. I'm also catching sub mistakes on the ADV boxset, such as "Moon Princess Elimination" and using "D'oh" for Dara on Usagi... Is there anything else I should watch for that you guys want?--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 18:07, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Signature color

Someone is going through the character bios and adding signature colors. This strikes me as fancruft, besides already being represented in our infoboxes and first appearance boxes. Should it be removed? --Masamage ♫ 00:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I do have a feeling its fancruft. Just because all of the senshi aura, uniform, and normal clothes represents their planet colour (save for ChibiMoon and Mamoru), doesn't mean its the signature colour. Unless its outrightly stated by a reliable source or Naoko, I don't think it should be there so I'll remove it for the time being.--Hanaichi 02:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, it's definitely not OR. Naoko states all their signature colors in the Materials Collection. --Masamage ♫ 02:25, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

LOL I shall go revert my edits. Maybe move it to the development section is a better idea?--Hanaichi 02:37, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Welllll, I personally still don't like having it there, actually. X) It's just that OR isn't my reason; cruft is. What is a "signature color" anyway? Who cares? What does it tell you that looking at their uniform doesn't? --Masamage ♫ 03:01, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention their hair X.X--Hanaichi 03:04, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Not to say put it back in, but it was mentioned for a reason... ^^;; I did some research after Takeuchi-sensei said she believed in astrology and reading "lucky color" type stuff from Cherry Project. For example, in the gemstones.. each has a "personality" and these tend to match after the second series. Blue means wisdom... The dates, etc... it's all very carefully mapped. Even the ginzuishou looking like a diamond is on purpose. In gemology... diamonds absorb other gem's energies, etc. But this is still fan stuff to me, and supporting the fact this is true does get into OR. Even the flowers she pictured with the senshi match up to flower language... It's quite amazing. Makes me gape in awe.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 08:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Huh. Where does this color symbology come from? Is there a reliable source on what each color "means" and why? --Masamage ♫ 18:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It's on wikipedia... Color_psychology Even has stuff on it... for flower language... Language_of_flowers She specifically talked about the language of flowers in Sailor V, said that an Aster means indecisive and this is the flower she had in mind for Minako... unfortunately Alex Glover pulled the translations, even if I know exactly where the note is in the books, I'm not sure if that's safe to reference. Original Volume 2 of Code Name Sailor V Page 40, vol. 8 the liner note at the beginning. Gemology is also included in it. This is why she insists on putting it on the profiles every time she posts them. I think, to her every stat has large significance. I figured we couldn't go on long platitudes on how their favorite food matches their astrology and how the color scheme happens to have significance both matching their personalities, and astrology... Takeuchi-sensei did say at San Diego Comic Con that she believes in Astrology. She included it also in every single last manga she's done so far... that or bloodtype. The Cherry Project, her previous manga started with astrology and predictions. But this is a Takeuchi Naoko-sensei otaku talking... It just so happens that the gems she chose match both personality and type of power the senshi in question has. It's really amazing.

BTW, if you are interested in yet more OR stuff the triple goddess ranks up there. Quite apparent in Infinity and very sincerely done after that. There is an SM page that talks about it. But I think its safer to keep it off. It also includes color schemes, which low and behold happen to match to the character. This is why while wisdom is blue, Pallas's senshi colors are light blue. It's light blue because it coincides with the maiden phase, indicating that Mercury, etc will be replaced. While a strong color blue is more likely to be mother phase. Pastels tend to be maiden, and so on... you can see this scheming down to why Neherenia wears dark green, purple and black. As well as Sailor Saturn wearing dark red, purple, and having black hair. But, this one I can't find support for from Takeuchi-sensei.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 04:26, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Notability of fiction

For those who don't follow WP:ANIME, take a look at this notice and the linked discussion. This may directly affect our project! --Masamage ♫ 04:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

More Rankings

Volume 10 pg 138-139 (weird placing, BTW) Out of 51 (last number is 78) No Villians made it into the top 20... The date given on the poll is December 1994.

1. Super Sailor Moon 55,111
2. Sailor Chibimoon 49,800 (making her popular in Japan)
3. Sailor Saturn 49,348
4. Tomoe Hotaru 42,230
5. Sailor Pluto 41,931
6. Sailor Uranus 35,874
7. Sailor Neptune 34,880
8. Chibiusa 27,020
9. Kaioh Michiru 26891
10. Tenoh Haruka 26507
11. Tsukino Usagi 26,214
12. Sailor Venus 22,399
13. Meioh Setsuna 21,145
14. Aino Minako 20,202
15. Mizuno Ami 16,757
16. Sailor Mercury 16,257
17. Sailor Jupiter 15,139
18. Kino Makoto 13,767
19. Sailor V 10,744
20. Hino Rei 10,179
21. Diana 9,744 [ O.o;;]
22. Sailor Mars 7,404 (not popular...)
23. Mistress 9 5,376
24. Tuxedo Mask 4,238
25. Luna 4,225
26. Luna P 3,985
27. Chiba Mamoru 3,543
28. Mimet 3,087
29. Momo-chan 1,541
30. Artemis 1,177
31. Haniyuu Mimi 1,151

I know there is a Dream, one, just have to find it... Easier said than done. Merii Kurisumasu--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 03:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

NM... found it...

My favorite volume, 15... Before the Chibiusa act. There is none in the Stars. Lowest number votes is at 147... February 1996 is when it was finished tabulating, etc. That's the date given. (notice the jump in numbers and readership...)

1. Eternal Sailor Moon 62,733
2. Super Sailor Chibimoon 47,680
3. Diana 43,365 (woah... first time a cat makes it in the top three, not to mention a supporting character.
4. Super Sailor Moon 39,903
5. Princess Serenity (BTW, the image in the book is of Neo Queen Serenity) 38,504
6. Sailor Saturn 34987
7. Tomoe Hotaru 28,516
8. Elios 24,532 (Poor Mamoru... never makes it in the top 20...)
9. Pallapalla (first Enemy in the top 10)
10. Sailor Uranus 17,931
11. Chibiusa 16,393
12. Tenoh Haruka 14,975
13. Tsukino Usagi 14,208
14. Aino Minako 13,859
15. Mizuno Ami 12,872
16. Kaioh Michiru 11,548
17. Sailor Venus 11287
18. Luna 11204
19. Sailor Mercury 10953
20. Pegasus 10499
21. Sailor Pluto 10156
22. Sailor Neptune 9645
23. Kino Makoto 9317
24. Princess Lady Serenity 9012 (older form of Small Lady as supposed to Small Lady)
25. Queen Serenity 8283
26. Tuxedo Mask 7391
27. Sailor Jupiter 7188
28. Prince Endymion 6976 (never ranked before)
29. Meioh Setsuna 6463
30. Chiba Mamoru 6380
31. Sailor Mars 6244
32. Hino Rei 5825
33. Cerecere 6244
34. Meinad (sp... I can't switch between languages that well...) 4854
35. Artemis 4742
36. Fish Eye 3103
37. Junjun 2876
38. Phobos 2577
39. Vesves 1860
40. Deimos 1748
41. Queen Neherenia 1621
42. Tiger Eye 894
43. Kunsite 625
44. Nephrite 492
45. Hawk's eye 460
46. Zoisite 352
47. Lemures 348
48. Jadite 301
49. Zurconia 276
50. Xeolite 153
51. Xenolite 147 --Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 04:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Popularity rankings

Some of the Reception sections are now soooo full of numbers that they're impossible to understand as prose. Should we turn them into tables instead?

I really feel that, even for the shorter ones that don't justify tables, it's a lot easier to understand 34 out of 50 than it is to understand thirty-four out of fifty. This is a very math-oriented bit of information, and if we don't present it as such, people have to do an extra step in their heads. --Masamage ♫ 18:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's an example of a fairly small table:

Popularity rankings

Form	1992	1993	1994	1996
Ami Mizuno	7/38	8/50	15/51	15/51
Sailor Mercury	4/38	9/50	16/51	19/51

And here's an example of a slightly larger one:

Popularity rankings

Form	1993	1994	1996
Chibiusa	1/50	8/51	11/51
Sailor Chibi Moon	--	2/51	2/51
Princess Lady Serenity	--	--	24/51
Black Lady	13/50	--	--
Luna-P	17/50	26/51	--

I'm also wondering if some of these rankings are notable at all... Like stating that some random background character is 37/51. Is there anything actually interesting about that number on its own? --Masamage ♫ 19:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Pass it by AMP first? See if it's OK, then if it is, go for the tables. I think it is notable that Diana made it third in that one poll. That should go into the cat's section. That's quite a jump.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 20:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't like presenting the rankings as numbers - to my mind, it's inelegant. MOS:NUM suggests we should spell out numbers that are one or two words long, as all of the numbers here are. I also think that giving minor characters their popularity rankings is important, as it is a tidbit of out of universe information. -Malkinann (talk) 02:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me like ease of comprehension is more or less synonymous with elegance. Anyway, it's important to note that the MOS does not say those numbers should be spelled out. What it says is "numbers of more than one digit are generally rendered as digits, but may be spelled out if they are expressed in one or two words" (emphasis mine). As for single-digit numbers, the 'Exceptions' section says that "Within a context or a list, style should be consistent," so that fits it, too.

The real issue is, my eyes totally glaze over when I try to read Chibiusa's massive rankings paragraph. It's just too much numerical information disguised as language, and there are too many superfluous words being repeated over and over, communicating exactly the same information, which are only there to fill in the grammatical space between the numbers. --Masamage ♫ 05:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Where do you propose to put the citations in your tables? They look too short and numbery to me.-Malkinann (talk) 05:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Well, they'll certainly need introductory paragraphs to explain about the polls and how and where they were conducted, so the citations could go there. There's also room for a citation in the title of the table; all the surveys could be mentioned in one ref tag. --Masamage ♫ 06:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Then show us, please. -Malkinann (talk) 06:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Uhh...

Popularity rankings

Form	1992	1993	1994	1996
Ami Mizuno	7/38	8/50	15/51	15/51
Sailor Mercury	4/38	9/50	16/51	19/51

--Masamage ♫ 06:33, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I meant the prose, too. ;) -Malkinann (talk) 06:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh. Um, nothing special? "Throughout the Sailor Moon series run, Nakayoshi held official polls to determine the popularity of each character among the fans. As one of the first major characters to be introduced, Ami featured in the 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1996 polls. Her civilian and transformed identities were treated as separate characters, and at least one of these always ranked in at least the top 30%."

Or something. Whatever the case, the number format needs to be settled. --Masamage ♫ 20:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Any response to this? Can we at least change the current paragraphs to have numerals in them? --Masamage ♫ 19:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Do we have to have the "/51" in the tables? Couldn't that be part of the explanatory prose? Why don't you do a test edit on Sailor Mercury to show us how it would go in a real article? -Malkinann (talk) 21:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Tuxedo Mask

I did the "turn this into prose" for the Special Powers section. I added things that people probably don't commonly know. However, it needs an editing sweep, and someone to fill in the missing references. The cane extend is probably from the episode where he rescues Usagi from Prince Diamond. Sustaining Chibiusa has to be from Super, near the end.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 20:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Yay, thank you! I gave it a sweep and a reorganization and added the Golden Crystal. That was way easier than it would otherwise have been. ^_^ Hooray Mamoru! The only thing I didn't find a citation for where I wanted one was the thing about him always showing up right on time. Oh, the Golden Crystal section probably needs acts and episode numbers, too; do you know those, and could you add them? --Masamage ♫ 21:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Polished off the needed references. Yay for getting bored and watching the series again.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 04:34, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Hee. Thanks! I fixed a typo and removed the word 'only' from the last sentence. Not sure it flows right, but the previous wording almost seemed to imply that Mamoru can't use it because his intentions are bad. ^^ It would sound better as "...by any person with good intentions," but I'm not sure that's strictly true. What do you think? --Masamage ♫ 07:01, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Powers List

This is a list of many powers compleate with their names in Kanji etc. It does come from Ian Miller's site so I'm not sure how reliable it is. I personanly can't verifiy them but if someone wants to look it over and take what we can use thats right. He does include Sources that seem to come from the Manga's Publisher though Lego3400: The Sage of Time (talk)

Not reliable... he skips over kanji when he can't read it. For example, Moon Rainbow Heartache was also spelled in kanji (I happen to have an image of that). It *looks* like he glazed over actually reading the manga and put it back into kana after he got the list of attacks. If it were done properly, it should have the kanji and kana as it appears. While it is written with furigana... and pronounced that way I had a debate with him over it. He tried to say it only works *some* of the time. --;; and was super selective about how it should be pronounced. --Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 17:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Why not ask him here? He's a Wikipedian as well -- User:Ian-Miller. --  Denelson83  18:06, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not too big a deal either way; we've already got most of the kanji information, and can attribute what we don't have to the manga itself. Nice starting point, though. --Masamage ♫ 00:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Sailor-Moon-stub-List

Template:Sailor-Moon-stub-List has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Caerwine Caer’s whines 19:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Sailor Moon episode screenshots not being deleted?

Category:Sailor Moon episode screenshots has been empty for quite some time, as its intent was to hold episode pictures. We don't have individual episodes any more, and the last picture in it, one of the Holy Grail, was removed a while ago? I thought categories automatically got deleted when empty? -Malkinann (talk) 23:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed the Holy Grail shot within the last week, since that was never what the category was intended to contain. It should be speedy-deletable now, having been empty for a few days. I'll make the nomination now. Thanks for reminding me. :) --Masamage ♫ 03:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Aaaaand Denelson polished it off. Thanks! --Masamage ♫ 03:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

YW. --  Denelson83  09:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, speedy deletion really is speedy! :) -Malkinann (talk) 21:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Guidelines

WP:FICT has been revised

WP:FICT, the notability guideline for elements within a work of fiction (characters, places, elements, etc) has a new proposal/revision that is now live [6] Everyone is encouraged to leave feedback on the talk page. Ned Scott 22:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Notability (serial works)

There is a proposal to split WP:EPISODE into a more general notability guideline, Wikipedia:Notability (serial works), and make the rest of WP:EPISODE just a MOS guideline. Please join in at WT:EPISODE#Proposed split of EPISODE and/or Wikipedia talk:Notability (serial works). -- Ned Scott 22:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Flower Meaning in SM?

http://www.flowerpossibilities.com/encyclopedia/46.html That flower was used in the wedding picture, and low and behold, the meaning of it fits... and it's used for weddings. Orchids in general are used for "maturity". Would this be too close to OR even if crossed with the reference about the Aster? (Sailor V volume) Artbook 5 mentions the flower directly. I'm not sure where it would go though. --Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 16:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

My feeling is that this would be something for your own website. -Malkinann (talk) 21:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree. Interesting stuff, but not very important within the series or outside it. And it's hard to be 100% sure she didn't just get lucky, for all that I'm 99% sure. XD --Masamage ♫ 08:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Edit Wars?

I noticed a string of edit wards lately... could we talk it out before all of the SM pages get locked down. *cries* I wanted to work on Mr. Tuxie. I think the question is to wiki or not to wiki. And if to wikilink, how much. Can there be some set rules for this? For now I'm going to note the refs for Tuxie until It's straightened out.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 06:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

There is a guideline, WP:REDLINK. I guess it's a question of how notable the sera myu actors are to the English WP. You can still work in the main article space. -Malkinann (talk) 10:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The edit wars were most likely caused by one guy, engaged in sockpuppeting. I got one of his accounts banned for posting porn photos to the admin noticeboard. After that, a brand new account showed up editing the Sailor Moon stuff in the same way, and when that was banned, another. That was hasn't been banned, though, because he was stopped when he warned him. Probably nothing to worry about anymore. --Masamage ♫ 19:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Project Copyvios

I have removed two sites from this project's Wikipedia:WikiProject Sailor Moon/References: the Oracle and Gina Biggs - Bunny's Tour of the Silver Millennium. In addition to not meeting WP:RS, both sites blatantly violate Wikipedia's WP:COPYVIO policy, which includes not linking to sites that violate copyrights. Why a project that claims to want to improve the site and to follow the guidelines of the parent Anime and Manga project would actually advocate such sites is beyond me. The Anime and manga project does not support linking to copyvio sites and Wikipedia as a whole does not look kindly on editors doing so deliberately. I strongly suggest the project make an effort to remove these offending links from all Sailor Moon articles as soon as possible.

Additionally, I've also been bold and rewrote some parts of that reference page so they actually follow Wikipedia guidelines and policies. We emphasize secondary reliable sources, not primary sources for details apart from plot and basic character information. This inappropriate emphasis on primary sources is why many of the Sailor Moon articles fail WP:FICT. I also clarified what should and should not be used as a reference, again using WP:RS and WP:V as a starting point. Neither the guideline nor the policy should be so easily dismissed or ignored, as the original text was doing. AnmaFinotera (talk) 20:52, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I would love to talk to you about this and think you make some very good points, but your hostile and accusatory tone has set me on edge, so that's going to have to wait. Meanwhile, you should know that the project page you are talking about by is very, very old and doesn't get much attention (or use, other than the primary sources section). And while we're tossing around acronyms, I'd like to request that you review or at least cast your memory on WP:AGF and WP:EQ. The people at this project have worked extremely hard and intend to continue doing so, and none of them deserve to be treated like renegades. We're doing our best. We're wrong sometimes. It happens. --Masamage ♫ 05:01, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for the accusatory tone. A large part of it came from dealing with a member of the project who was making statements that implied the project as a whole had approved and supported the links and would block their removal. He then reverting their removals from one article with a hostile tone and started canvassing other people to try to "shut me up", including you, so I thank you for not taking the same tone as he used in his message. My aggravation with that situation is probably visible in my initial messages as I felt it was a critical issue that needed to be brought up ASAP, as COPYVIO is one of the few policies where there is little negotiation regarding compliance. You may also want to visit Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga#Sailor Moon project and problem with Copyvio where quite a bit of discussion has been taking place, as the SM project is a child-project of Anime and Manga. AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why some of the links to the Oracle are invalid. WP:COPYRIGHT says that "if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work" (emphasis mine). Well, we're not linking to her movie downloads, after all; we're linking to her essays and to her collections of publishing information. They're on the same web server, but if that was all it took, this guideline would be way more extreme than I think it is--even legal YouTube videos would be banned, because one can type "AMV" or whatever into the search bar and immediately have access to millions of copyright violations. So, in my opinion, several of the Oracle and SailorMusic links are legitimate and useful and should be restored. --Masamage ♫ 05:27, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Was Hitoshi Doi's site removed simply for reasons of WP:RS? His site has been used as a reference by Grigsby and Allison in their papers - surely that has to count in its favour? -Malkinann (talk) 06:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

We do not link to external sites that distribute copyrighted works, period. The argument that we don't link to the pages does not qualify. Also, none of them are RS. Again, please see the fuller discussion. AnmaFinotera (talk) 06:32, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

From what I recall in the past, there isn't a black and white rule about this. It's strongly discouraged, but if an argument can be made, then it should be evaluated. -- Ned Scott 06:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

"The argument that we don't link to the pages does not qualify." You can say that all you want, but I'm not going to accept it if you don't even attempt to explain why not. I still disagree with you. Throw me a bone here. This issue has not been discussed at the other page. --Masamage ♫ 17:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:COPYRIGHT: if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work : Basically what's being interpretted here is that if the site as a whole has illegal downloads present or clear violations of copyright, portions of pages on the site can be used as references if the page in question does not contain said violations. Am I right? How does this address static links to the copyright violations that appear on every page of the site? Checking the Oracle, the side bar of links is always present no matter where you navigate and one of those links is the Download page. As such, any page used as a reference for the articles have clear and obvious direct access to such violations. Fox816 (talk) 20:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that the Oracle is not a good reference based on Fox816's statement. However, I think Hitoshi Doi's site should stay. JuJube (talk) 21:21, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, Naoko Takeuchi has never really taken issue with fan pages--in fact she's encouraged them. She's *asked* and literally begged for fan pages to go up. She wants people to talk about her, send her fan art. I could do citation for that, but it's waaaaayyy off topic. And frankly, I don't think most people would care if I went on a long citation rant about her history with her own fandom. To me, it seems you are putting a lot of frustration on this project that belongs to other fandoms. You've had negative experiences with other fandoms. I can respect that people are really bad on the internet (insert whichever selective word you want), but you really need to present specific reasons in such a way that it's clear and concise with a citation rather than a source. What about these pages offends you so greatly? What do they contain that would impede on copyright?

Currently, I have worked for Tokyopop before, and Stuart Levy, CEO of Tokyopop said he realized the flaws in Tokyopop's work. However, he also has hired Alex Glover in the past to work on several translations. (I had to read a stack of manga... all of Sailor Moon and do corrections. And yes, I did reference Alex Glover and yes, I did double check his translations through a dictionary and several Japanese people... and no, the corrections never made print except in Volume 11). Through this time woring with Tokyopop, I learned that Stuart Levy knew of Alex's translations and had no intention of suing the guy. He actually respected him. Currently, Tokyopop does not own the rights to the US translations. (Their copies by Berne convention, yes, but it's still not licensed.) This means it reverts back to the creator. Because her contract was up with Kodansha. The creator at current time is sitting on her multi-million empire and enjoying the fandom for all its worth, 'cause she says it lifts her up and encourages her to work. (Do you need citations for that one?) I have thoroughly checked line by line Alex Glover's translations. There are minor technical glitches, however he's done a fine job of translating. He's definitely a RS and translations under Berne convention laws still belong to the translator. Now that he doesn't have a license may be an issue here, but continuing on to that phase, *pst* neither did Tokyopop when they first published SM. Anyhow, he isn't posting the entire first manga and he's been very careful to make sure you need to *buy* the manga to understand his translations. Tokyopop never saw him as a threat and since no one owns the US license and he's actually encouraging buying the original manga, he's not impeding on the financial end of Sailor Moon. Currently the creator has encouraged derivative works in the form of Doushinji and fan art to such a fevor pitch. I don't think he really violates Copyright. If the creator herself, Miss Naoko Takeuchi goes to a convention and *buys* a plushie from a fan and is greatly honored by the work, I doubt she'd have a problem with translations of said work. In which case she would be tentatively releasing her work under a controlled Share-alike license, which many mangaka in Japan are apt to do. As long as the fan isn't making major profit, I don't think she really cares. (And citations can bound up from back when she started being a mangaka... Heck, just read more than half her author notes and you'll see how much she adores and encourages this kind of thing.)

Now, my question is under what pretense does Wikipedia fear the violation of copyright. Is it because parties could get litigious, recognition for the work being stolen, or what other means? Because Naoko Takeuchi has clearly shown again and again and still has shown since her last manga, Toki*Meca that she loves fan sites more than anything. She hasn't banned the use of her art on the Internet (Like CLAMP) and has clearly stated that she was flattered to see websites on her work and about herself. She;s asked for more and more...

Does that mean we should violate all copyright? No. As long as we do the attribution, citations and fine RS and maybe send her our efforts her way once in a while she's a happy camper. We can play in her sandbox as long as we don't make it canon. (Selective Share alike) BTW, *Random* her B-day is coming up. ^_^ You have to send your packages tomorrow to get them to arrive on time.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 09:23, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... What about if someone on jawiki asks Takeuchi if she put her SM manga under CC-BY-SA? --  Denelson83  22:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

May be useful, but how could we verify her response? --Masamage ♫ 22:52, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps with a digital signature? --  Denelson83  23:48, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

You can ask her at Luna's corner (Official website), though I haven't figured out the form yet. (There are a bunch of names I can't decipher).--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 14:20, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a good idea. Seems pretty hard to translate, but maybe we can find someone truly bilingual to help us out? Also most of the questions there seem to be like "when are the musicals coming out?" and "what's Minako's favorite color?", so it might be out of place. --Masamage ♫ 17:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

One of the early ones was on Sailor Cosmos though... But Takeuchi-sensei was elusive as ever. When they had the e-mail and not the form, I sent the question about Cosmos too. Anyway, can't hurt to try, don't you think? Someone can include with the form that it's a question not to be posted... Right now I don't have any Japanese friends on hand I could hit up. ^^;; Maybe someone at AMP is more fluent?--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 07:10, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

AMP? --  Denelson83  05:55, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Anime Manga Project=AMP.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 15:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)