Wikipedia talk:Twinkle/Archive 11

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Multiple edits?

Sorry for my ignorance, but is this how TW supposed to be used (23 edits in one article)? ∴ AlexSm 22:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The danger of deleting an entire watchlist

Does anyone else think it's a bad idea to give us administrators power to delete everything on our watchlists? I can't see why this should be a feature, and it could case tremendous damage if someone compromised my account and deleted literally hundreds or even thousands of pages. Grandmasterka 03:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

There's a simple solution to this: back up your watchlist. Just go to Special:Watchlist/raw and copy the contents of your watchlist into a text file on your computer. That way, if you lose your watchlist for some reason, you can just go back and restore it from that point. Pyrospirit (talk · contribs) 03:47, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Misunderstood the question, never mind. Pyrospirit (talk · contribs) 04:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm saying, why have this at all? If I deleted my whole watchlist, I wouldn't be able to do much, because I would be immediately desysopped and banned until I came with a good explanation and they were sure I was actually... Me. And other administrators would have to restore thousands of pages. I suppose I could keep a list onwiki, but... What's the point of having this feature? Grandmasterka 04:20, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Unlink tab

What is the new 'unlink' tab at the top of the page? Harland1 (^t/_c) 18:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid to touch it. J-ſtan^Contribs_{User page} 02:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and ran it on an image that's only in my userspace, and basically, it comments out the image in question in all instances where it's found. Here's a diff showing what it did. As you can see, nothing major. SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:44, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

What is the purpose of commenting it out? J-ſtan^Contribs_{User page} 17:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I just tried it with my sandbox, it didn't show up in my contribs, and its "what links here" is completely unharmed. Weird. J-ſtan^Contribs_{User page} 17:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

It only checks backlinks that are in namespace 0 (main) or 100 (image). No other backlinks are changed. The code is at User:AzaToth/twinkleunlink.js. — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

While working on page deletions, I've had several opportunities to use this new tab, and I love it. Thanks!--Fabrictramp (talk) 18:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Twinkle

Do you have to pay to use twinkle? Greenrico09 (talk) 21:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Nope. Everything on Wikipedia is free content; this includes all user scripts and editing tools. Pyrospirit (talk · contribs) 23:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Correct. Wikipedia is free content, however, you are still welcome and encouraged to make a donation to the Wikimedia Foundation. SchuminWeb (Talk) 03:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Twinkle Problems

Resolved

Twinkle has suddenly stopped working for me, for no apparent reason. Friendly also doesn't work anymore. I have the scripts for both in my monobook.js page, and they worked fine for weeks, but now they don't work. I didn't put this up where the bug reports because I'm not sure if the problem is with Twinkle or my page. Can someone look on my page and help? Thanks. Calvin 1998 (talk) 06:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

You're missing a single quote (') and you are using a { where there should be a (. I can't make the appropriate changes for you, but please try it and let me/us know if that fixes the problem. (EhJJ) 23:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I know, I did that and it's fixed. I just forgot to say that here, because I had a {{helpme}} on my talk page and asked it there too. That's where my answer came from. Calvin 1998 (talk) 01:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Captions

I've noticed everytime I tag a image for deletion that is in a infobox with {{deletable image-caption}} ex: (diff) The caption provided does not display since the image is not presented as a thumbnail, is it possible for TW to instead use the caption parameter? « ₣M₣ » 23:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Adding to Special:Gadgets

Does anyone think it would be useful to add twinkle to Special:Gadgets like we've done with popups? Oysterguitarist 00:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes. en.wb has done this with the part of TW that work out-of-the-box, and we like it, I think :) The people who were deciding what goes in Gadgets went temporarily insane when they were discussing this, and now you guys have only almost-useless scripts available. – Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 01:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Twinkle in Gadgets would be superb. It would save allot of time for the developers of such scripts as Twinkle, WikEd, Etc. to have them in as gadgets. That way they don't have to go chasing down the end users js file to make sure it's called correctly when a user has problems. Point click, it's installed properly.

--DP67 ^(talk/_contribs) 01:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... IE compatibility? It's not impossible, and imho should have been done a long time ago. I think that would be the main obstacle in making this a gadget ∴ AlexSm 04:53, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

It's impossible, and will not be done in a near future (about IE compat). About gadgets, there would be some updates to Gadgets before I would move it there. _→AzaToth 04:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

You cannot disable things that people have set in Gadgets. Since sometimes Twinkle is used in semi-editwarring, admins would prefer being able to simply remove it from your monobook.js. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 07:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

That was the insanity I was talking about - there's no need for IE support to put it in Gadgets. Just make sure the description tells people not to check the box if they use IE. I assume TW fails gracefully anyways, so there's no real problem. Not sure what needs to be changed in the extension... en.wb is using parts of TW through Gadgets with no issues I know of. <edit conflict here> That's what blocking is for. I know enwiki admins aren't as trigger-happy as those elsewhere, but seriously folks. If someone's misusing it, just block them. Even removing it from monobook isn't a real solution - you can still use it à la Greasemonkey. – Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 07:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I personally agree with you, but judging from the current rollback functionality mess, I'm guessing you would see a lot of opposition to such an inclusion. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 23:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I installed Twinkle as a gadget on my home wiki just to see if it works, and it works fine. Of course there is the IE issue but such a problem could be cured as mentioned above by warning users using IE that it does not work properly. For gee wiz I also installed WikEd, and it works as well. But of course the only intended user of my wiki is me, so can't say it works well for the masses.

--DP67 ^(talk/_contribs) 23:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

If it was made into a gadget, it would need to have a note that it does not work in IE. Oysterguitarist 02:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

False vandalism claim for reverting a vandalism move

A while ago I reverted somebody who moved Brian Eno to Brian Emo. Today I received a template accusing of vandalism. When asking for an explanation the user said it was automatically generated by TWINKLE. I posted at AN/I, see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Vandal fighters being accused of vandalism by twinkle and am now posting here as my concern is that good faith vandal fighters could be frightened away. I have never used Twinkle myself and concerns were expressed at AN/I that it might partly be a bug in the system so if someone could please investigate. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

What happened here: You reverted the move, thus making your revert the first edit on the new page (Brian Emo). When somebody else tagged that page for speedy deletion as vandalism, Twinkle automatically notified the user who first edited the page. Since you moved the page, and the pages history, you became the first editor of that page, which is why you received the warning. Sorry if that doesn't make sense, as I can't seem to find the right words today.. - Rjd0060 (talk) 19:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

This is what people said at AN/I and it makes sense but what are we going to do about it? As good faith vandalism reverting should never result in automated vandalism allegations, unless we fix these kind of bugs we will be chasing good faith users away, that is my concern and that is why i am posting here, i don't want to see this happen to much less experienced users who then walk away frioom the project in disgust. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I understand. Honestly, I don't know, but I don't think that the script can avoid this. The user who tagged the page should have been more thorough before tagging the page (like checking the pages' history) and then unchecking the box that says "Notify if possible" (which would have tagged the page, and not notified you). - Rjd0060 (talk) 19:21, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Well if the script can avoid this then it certainly should but I realise that automated systems are complex, and I see on this project page that users need to take responsibility for how they use this script, I think the user who did this has realised his mistake and hopefully won't do it again. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if it would work to change the template warning placed by Twinkle when that tag is used. I know it hasn't been that long since the templates were differentiated by reason, and it seems this could be an issue in the one used discovered through actual use. A statement could be added to {{Db-pagemove-notice}} simply acknowledging in parenthesis something along the lines of "(If you did not move the article to this location, but restored it following such a move, please disregard this notice.)" --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I am sure it could be added, but I don't think that is necessary. People just need to do their homework before adding speedy tags. - Rjd0060 (talk) 19:33, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

While I hear your point, Rjd, I think it is a good idea of MOON'S. from now on I will immediately speedy any vandalism generated redirects such as Brian Emo but my concern is to prevent other users falling into the same issue. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

<reset indent>Considering that many such redirects tagged for deletion will be left by those cleaning up, I wonder about an overhaul of the whole notice, which seems to tie together the warning against such behavior and speedy advisement. Are there any objections to this language?

“ (Article) has been tagged for speedy deletion as a nonsense redirect page formed as a result of the reversion of a page moved to an inappropriate title. If you are the editor who originally moved the article to the nonsensical title, please do not make such moves, as they are considered vandalism. If you would like to learn more about moving pages, please see the guidelines on this subject. If you would like to experiment with page titles and moving, please use the test Wikipedia.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of [[:(article)|the page]] (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on (the article's talk page) explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.

”

If there are no objections, I'd be happy to implement it. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 20:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

TWINKLE has two buttons to tag articles under G3: "Pure vandalism" and "Pagemove". Surely it would be enough to stop the program from notifying the creator if the latter is used? I think it already does this for U1. Hut 8.5 20:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

That would be difficult because the notify limit configuration os only based on the normalized criteria (g3). _→AzaToth 20:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

uw-username

Can you please add {{uw-username}} to the list of warning templates? Thanks. --Closedmouth (talk) 06:40, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll look into to do a synck with WP:UTM. _→AzaToth 19:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Coolio. --Closedmouth (talk) 00:38, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

New user time limit

I have been a twinkle user for a long time. Last week, for reasons of personal privacy, I dropped my old username and started using a new one. Now I can't use Twinkle as it says my account is too new. Fair enough, I understand why that is, but I cannot find it documented anywhere how long the restriction will apply to my new account. Can someone enlighten me please? --TimTay (talk) 10:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you're autoconfirmed after 4 days. --Closedmouth (talk) 10:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow. By freaky coincidence your reply came 3 days, 23 hours, 58 minutes after my account was created. Sure enough a couple of minutes later when my account was 4 days old Twinkle started working. It would be nice to add this to the documentation. --TimTay (talk) 10:48, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

New template in warning box

Maybe you could add Template:Drmmt to Single Issue Notices? I know it is similar to one that is already there (Template:uw-delete1) but I like that one because it is specific. - Rjd0060 (talk) 05:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree - this one should be added. Maintenance templates aren't content per se, and I for one wouldn't put {{uw-delete1}} for someone removing maintenance tags without explanation. Especially when half the time, people removing maintenance tags without explanation just need a you-may-not-have-realized-it-but kind of message, not an "official" warning that escalates to a block. SchuminWeb (Talk) 19:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Only using Uw-templates. _→AzaToth 19:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Can we just move it to Template:Uw-drmmt then? - Rjd0060 (talk) 22:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. I looked at the other templates in the "uw" pseudo-namespace, and it appears reasonable to move drmmt into that space. SchuminWeb (Talk) 01:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I could have used Template:Drmmt half a dozen times today. Even if it doesn't get into TW (and I hope it does!), thanks for letting me know it exists. --Fabrictramp (talk) 22:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Ditto here. Bookmarking and wishing it could go in Twinkle too :) Collectonian (talk) 22:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

OK AzaToth. Can you add Template:Uw-drmmt to the menu, please. - Rjd0060 (talk) 04:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Please make sure it follows the format for uw-templates, and make a better name for it. Also make sure it's not redundant to any other uw-template. _→AzaToth 01:36, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

IP edit

How did this happen? --Rschen7754 (T C) 01:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Probably just used the code for the edit summary. Oysterguitarist 04:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Quick question

I tried to configure TW on my page, but I don't think I did it right. How do I set it so that it does not watch pages of users I warn? Cirt (talk) 02:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC).

It appears to be configured correctly. Have you tried bypassing your browser cache on your monobook.js page? (Ctrl + F5 in most browsers.) That should fix the problem. Pyrospirit (talk · contribs) 03:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

 Done, but that didn't seem to do it, it still watches new user talk pages I warn, I tested it at a subpage of my user space. Cirt (talk) 03:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC).

• I tried to configure WP:FRIENDLY, but now that's adding user talk pages to my watchlist too. Did I not configure it correctly? Cirt (talk) 03:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC).

It looks properly configured to me. Try completely clearing your cache. Firefox lets you do that form Tools->Clear Private Data. Tuvok[^T@lk/_Improve] 04:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

•  Done, I did a bunch of the stuff recommended, and it's fixed, thanks. Cirt (talk) 04:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC).

By the way, there is currently (last I heard) an issue with bypassing browser caches. The devs have a fix ready, and it will be implemented soon. Until then, users may have difficulty doing this. – Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 00:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I just had to restart Firefox to purge my user CSS earlier this afternoon. Glad it's not something wrong with my machine. :) Tuvok[^T@lk/_Improve] 02:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Watch list

Hi, I find it very annoying that my watchlist is filled with all the pages that I revert vandalism on. How can i stop this? Thank you Cocoaguy ここがいい_contribs^talk Review Me! 15:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Twinkle has configuration parameters to tweak a lot of things. If you add:

TwinkleConfig = {
watchRevertedPages              :       [  ]
};

to your monobook.js under the Twinkle include line, it won't watch pages you revert. Ever. Check the docs page for the other config options; TW is very tweakable. ;-) Tuvok[^T@lk/_Improve] 15:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Viewing and editing Wikipedia while running scripts

See also: Wikipedia talk:Bots/Approvals group § Viewing and editing Wikipedia while running scripts, and Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) § Viewing and editing Wikipedia while running scripts

An issue at ANI involves whether an editor can view and/or edit Wikipedia while running a script (seems to be java/TWINKLE-based). Could people here advise on how easy it is for this sort of inability to arise, and how easy it is to get around? The idea is that editors should be able to respond to concerns and queries while running such scripts. This was an image deletion script running for 2 hours after a manual check. The thread is here. Any opinion on whether such "script-blindness" situations are common, and what the guidelines/workarounds should or could be, would be welcomed. Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 22:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm unaware of any script that makes it impossible to view or edit Wikipedia while it is running. If it simply eats lots of CPU/bandwidth such that other programs (web browser) can't function, then the script is broken, and should be fixed. That said, many scripts are left running unattended, or the operator may be doing other things on their computer (ie. not refreshing their talk page) which would result in them not seeing comments. – Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 22:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

It appears (in the VP-technical thread) that TWINKLE does freeze FireFox until the task is finished. Worth taking further? Carcharoth (talk) 00:22, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Some modules, like batch image deletion, can for some make the browser somewhat unresponsive if they have set the settings too high. _→AzaToth 00:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Orphaning image instances in particular does this, especially since the default rate for category traversal is 50 images at a time. east.718 at 00:26, January 22, 2008

Hmm, I though I sat that to 10... _→AzaToth 00:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

There was a reference to running a "high speed script". Is this 10 a limiting rate or something? Remember, I know next to nothing about TWINKLE or scripts. I've been poking around in various .js pages (is that acceptable - I can't remember if only admins can see those pages or not - am I confusing this with the CSS page?) and I'm not really learning anything, unfortunately. Carcharoth (talk) 01:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a way to pipeline it. _→AzaToth 20:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, there is no rate limiter. This is just an option to help improve performance on slower PCs. east.718 at 21:51, January 22, 2008

Adminship is awarded to trusted users: human beings. On what basis is adminship being extended to scripts that can delete 50 pages a minute? --kingboyk (talk) 00:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

There is none at all. If users want to make mindless deletes without any thought, they should apply for a bot account. Majorly (talk) 00:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I quite agree. That's not what's happening though. --kingboyk (talk) 00:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I asked Maxim about this the first time I spotted him doing this. He said he manually checks the images and then does a batch delete at the end of the manual checking. east718 does something very similar, I believe. I think this sort of thing is OK, though I suspect (on the basis of some of the errors made) that the checks may sometimes be cursory, but that is difficult to establish. Basically, if the image deletion was incorrect, it should be spotted anyway, and if someone consistently gets this wrong, then their TWINKLE access can be revoked (I think). Carcharoth (talk) 01:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know this particular case, and don't care to, but in general, your script is going too fast for your computer if it must be the only thing running. Tweak it to go slower. As well, Aza might add a periodic check for the "new messages" header in the deletion parts of the script to suspend deletion if a message is left there (potentially ignorable in config). – Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 01:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, Majorly's comments are unhelpful. a) bot accounts can't delete because enwikipedia has adminbot phobia (and yes, I do mean an irrational fear and b) Mass deletions are required, and will continue to be; thus, scripted deletion is here to stay and c)"Be advised that you take full responsibility for any action performed using Twinkle. You must understand Wikipedia policies and use this tool within these policies, or risk being blocked." The tool used to make edits or sysop tasks isn't relevant - the responsibility remains that of the person. If the admin is abusing the rights, block/desysop them. – Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 01:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Carcharoth raised an important point in previous discussion of this issue and I want to raise it here again so it doesn't get lost: Scripts perform actions much faster and more easily than they can be undone, probably by a factor of 100. I was frankly frightened when I saw the batch deletion function appear in TWINKLE, probably because I've had to clean up after rambunctious deleters in the past. I am NOT referring to Maxim, with whom the issue was simply miscommunication. There have been admins, however, who will crash through a whole deletion category without "checking". So what happens when they do and their "script" cannot reverse what they did? Several people here have pointed out that their TWINKLE can be revoked, they can be blocked, etc, but such actions are hard to carry out. The last time I went through this, I spent days reviewing deleted images and preparing an RfC, only for the admin to "quit" and walk off without any accountability at all. --Spike Wilbury ♫ talk 17:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

This is non-issue. The pywikipediabot framework contains a module delete.py which can undelete as fast as it can delete. – Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 21:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

This is true - and something that I've utilized before (to undo around 400 bad deletions by Maxim in under two minutes, ostensibly). If admins are indeed going through the image backlogs without manually vetting the images, they have to ensure that they get it right every time like Misza13 does, or they will lose their tools. east.718 at 21:51, January 22, 2008

This discussion seems to have been fairly useful. Could someone make sure the various guidelines and documentations get updated with whatever sensibly needs to be said? Carcharoth (talk) 05:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Script Change?

Starting today (or maybe last yesterday), whenever I have reverted vandalism, instead of opening in a new tab, Twinkle has tried to open the user's talk page in a new window (which FireFox blocked). I haven't change anything in my configuration settings, so I was wondering if the script was changed to no longer open in a new tab? Collectonian (talk) 23:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Warning/ARV "extra comments" + full stops

Why do these comments always come out in italics, and is there any way to do anything about it? Also, is it possible to remove the default "full stop" at the end of ARV/RPP/warnings/edit-summaries, to enable one to use ! and ? freely... thanks! Porcupine (prickle me! · contribs · status) 14:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of ARV I just popped in to congratulate the creator, the ARV comment when you try to do it to yourself made me laugh. SGGH ^speak! 13:26, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

JSL

I have removed JSL from morebits.js now. It's available as an gadget, and if you are not using FF, you might need to add it from there. _→AzaToth 13:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)