Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2018 May 15

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May 15

Police hiring

In the USA, when was the first female police detective hired? What about the first black police detective, and the first black and Asian-American female forensic scientists? And when was the first Asian-American judge appointed (or elected) to office? Is it true that none of these would have been hired during the pre-WW1 era? 2601:646:8A00:A0B3:8476:9D85:4610:EA41 (talk) 05:13, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

You may find some useful info in List of African-American firsts. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:59, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Aha, I see that by 1911 there were already a few black police officers in New York and Boston, but NO black women working in CSI (the first black policewoman was only hired in 1919, and she was a probation officer rather than a forensic scientist). 2601:646:8A00:A0B3:441F:C8FF:AED4:31F7 (talk) 11:24, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything specific, but this article says:

"Women continued to serve police departments in limited ways until the Great Depression and World War II in the 1930s and 1940s. These events increased competition for jobs in the United States, and the opportunity for women to compete with men for law enforcement roles was diminished. Women continued to serve increasingly in support roles, however, such as dispatch and other “desk-bound” duties. The tide began to turn in the 1950s as women in law enforcement moved into more male-dominated roles and began to compete for promotion".

So it seems unlikely that there were any female detectives before about 1950. Alansplodge (talk) 12:04, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

• See Kate Warne and Lola Baldwin. --Jayron32 12:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Correction: any female police detectives before about 1950. Alansplodge (talk) 12:32, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

I believe that April 1, 1908 is before 1950, but I would have to double check on that. I also believe that the Portland Police Bureau is a Police agency, but I could also be mistaken. Can you explain why you needed to make a correction? --Jayron32 12:39, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Although Alansplodge reply was posted below yours, it was indented at their reply. The timing suggests there's a good chance there was either a hidden EC or an unnoticed edit. So it could easily have nothing to do with yours and simply recognition that their original claim was always likely to be contentious. Nil Einne (talk) 00:55, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

That said, local norms may affect whether someone considers Auxiliary police as a sufficient part of the police force such that a member of auxiliary police could be considered a police detective. Nil Einne (talk) 01:01, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

For the purposes of this question, it is a matter of what kind of duties they perform. 2601:646:8A00:A0B3:15D7:F029:8904:1E6D (talk) 04:20, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Many apologies for the hasty post, although Kate Warne was clearly a private detective. In my defence, the Lola Baldwin article does say 'Depending on the definition of "policewoman"'. Alansplodge (talk) 10:50, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Before many US police organizations formally set aside some officers as detectives,and in smaller police organizations still, the general duties of all officers included those Wikipedia ascribe to detectives: "They often collect information to solve crime by talking to witnesses and informants, collecting physical evidence, or searching records in databases. This leads them to arrest criminals and allow them to be convicted in court." http://mentalfloss.com/article/83601/10-trailblazing-us-law-women lists seven women who were Deputy US Marshals in the 1880s and 1890s. If a train or bank was robbed, or a murder occurred, a US Deputy Marshal would perform the duties of a detective, from gathering evidence and interviewing witnesses to interrogating suspects. A number of women started out in cities or in rural sheriff's offices as jail matrons or as undersheriffs or deputy sherrifs dealing with female jail prisoners or with children of arrestees or with female prisoners, who needed to be detained and searched. They sometimes also did general law enforcement, with duties amounting to detective work. Per the article above such officers included Clair Fergusin in Utah as a Deputy Sheriff in 1897 and Constance Kopp as Undersheriff in New Jersey in 1915. Edison (talk) 14:51, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Her name was Kopp? That's amazing. That's almost as good as Thomas Crapper making crappers. --Jayron32 16:01, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

[un-indent] Thanks, all! So, even at the turn of the 20th century there were a few (white) women as well as blacks (but no black or other minority women) in various US police forces -- which is quite a surprise! (As an aside: the reason why I asked is that I'm currently playing Criminal Case: Mysteries of the Past, and in that game, which is set in New York in the years 1907-1910, one of your partner detectives is an Irish-American woman and the other is a black man, whereas the lab chief is a black woman and the weapons expert is an Asian-American (and disabled) one, which I thought was bullshit -- turned out it wasn't that much of a stretch after all! And, based on the linked articles, I might venture a thought that Madeline O'Malley, the Irish-American woman detective, might well have been partly based on Lola Baldwin, Marie Owens and/or Alice Stebbins Wells!) So this leaves just one question unanswered: Were there any Asian-American judges in the early 20th century? 2601:646:8A00:A0B3:15D7:F029:8904:1E6D (talk) 04:38, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Probably not; the nearest I can tell is that Delbert E. Wong may be the first; and he was born in 1920. --Jayron32 11:10, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! So, they did stretch the truth some while coming up with the characters, but not as much as I thought -- Madeline O'Malley and Isaac Bontemps (the detectives who go on patrol) are plausible (being an Irish-American woman and a black man), but Viola Pemberton (the lab chief), Rose Zhao (the weapons expert) and Judge Takakura are not. 2601:646:8A00:A0B3:59FC:11F6:62E8:BCD (talk) 07:40, 18 May 2018 (UTC)