Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2015 September 17

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September 17

Standing transportation

Recent studies show that sitting is unhealthy, while standing is better. Unfortunately, it is rare, in any form of transportation, where you can stand. There's the Segway scooter and other scooters, but you can't go very far in those. You can stand on a subway, bus, or train, although people might look at you like you were insane if there are seats available. Standing on a plane is definitely out, as those narrow aisles mean that one person standing up blocks all passage up and down that aisle. What I'm most interested in is cars and trucks (particularly for long haul truckers). Is there any design that will allow them to stand while driving, or even as a passenger ? Seat belts seem to require that you be seated, but I imagine they could be redesigned. Commercial truck cabs seem to be tall enough that a person could stand up in them without raising the roof (you might need to lower the floor, though). Similarly, is there any motor vehicle where you can lie down safely while somebody else drives ? (The driver lying down would be bad, as it would tend to promote sleep.) Obviously if you are in an RV you can lie down, but without the equivalent of a seat belt, this is dangerous, while the vehicles is in motion. StuRat (talk) 16:07, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

On many transit systems, such as the New York City Subway, and the Tokyo Metro, standing is normal. At many times of the day, far more people stand than sit. These trains often have straps, poles, and handles for people to hold on when standing, for safety. Many buses do as well. See here for an example. --Jayron32 16:18, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Don't some urban package delivery vehicles and garbage trucks allow accommodate standing driving (to facilitate quick entry and exit)? Hayttom (talk) 10:23, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Regarding lying down, many trains have Sleeping cars, or they used to, when people actually rode trains long distance. --Jayron32 16:19, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I wish long plane trips had the option to lie down. It doesn't seem to me that it takes up any more space for people to lie down than to sit, if the cabin is rearranged in the proper way, with people on shelves stacked one above the other. StuRat (talk) 03:49, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

You said what the problem with that idea is though...you wish you had the option to lie down. If they built the cabin space for people to lie flat (or to stand up, for that matter) - then there would be no option to sit down - and again, you'd be unhappy. (Well, if not you, then at least quite a few people).

That's really indicative of the general problem here. It would be relatively easy to construct vehicles that would be driven by people standing up...and it would be fairly easy to make them for people laying down - but building something that accomodates sitting and standing - or laying down and standing is really difficult. Even if you managed it, the vehicle would have to be GIGANTIC. So given the choice, they pick the most popular stance - which is sitting down. SteveBaker (talk) 18:58, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I meant I'd like to have the option of buying either a siting or reclining ticket. I'd be fine with reclining for the entire flight. I am prone to DVT/blood clots, so it would be much safer for me. StuRat (talk) 03:22, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Except in the case of buses, where you can sometimes find homeless bums sleeping on the chairs... and where you can (technically) drive the bus standing up if it's low enough, provided that you have a stool.... (oh, and BTW, how do you drive standing up?? Most vehicles have two foot pedals, which makes that very hard.) Epic Genius (talk) 19:12, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

it is rare, in any form of transportation, where you can stand – Commuters of public bus, commuter rail, or subways (basically, anyone in an urban area or within walking distance of a transit system) get ample opportunities to stand.

Also, you can lie down in the backseat of most cars. Epic Genius (talk) 16:43, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

The backseats of most cars are entirely too small for an adult to lie down, at least without your knees being bent. Also, it would be unsafe in an accident, without modified seat belts that could restrain you in that position. StuRat (talk) 03:49, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

To clarify, there's nothing inherently unhealthy about sitting per se. Sitting#Health_risks - it's sitting for "prolonged periods" without alternating with standing/walking/laying down/doing things that has risks. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:51, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. People are actually "designed" for sitting, but only for a few minutes at a time, it seems. StuRat (talk) 03:49, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I can't find any kind of passenger cars or trucks that allow for standing drivers, and that is and interesting notion to think about for long-haul truckers. Here's [1] a journal article documenting the health risks of sitting while commuting by motor vehicle, and it they come to some fairly negative conclusions.

But many people ride a bicycle to get around, with a functional maximum of around 10 miles each way to work and back [2]. That way not only are you not "sitting", you're also getting exercise. In England and Wales, the average distance to work is 15.0 km, and much more of them could be cycling more often [3]. In the USA, as of 2003 [4], over 50% of people traveled <10 miles to work, and they could often be cycling too. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:51, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, and you can ride a bike in a standing position, too. Still, not practical for long distances or in bad weather. StuRat (talk) 03:49, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Standing while driving a vehicle strikes me as being unsafe. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:04, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Only unsafe because they haven't designed a safe way to do so. There are cars designed for parapalegics, who can't use their feet, so they already have a system in place for operating the accelerator and brakes without the feet. As mentioned already, you would also need a way to restrain a standing person in an accident. StuRat (talk) 03:49, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Here's a New York Times article about a type of truck designed to be driven standind up. [5]. WP:WHAAOE: Divco. --Xuxl (talk) 11:28, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

A military Humvee (not the commercial Hummer) was designed for operation while standing. With a fording adapter, you could drive it completely submerged in water (except for the top of the adapter, of course). That meant that you could get down to where you had to stand up or you'd be well underwater. The standing throttle is a bar on the wheel, similar to where most cars have windshield wiper sticks. I never drove one underwater, but my Humvee had a fording adapter, so I technically could have if I really wanted to clean out all the gunk when I was done. 209.149.113.66 (talk) 19:45, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Interesting ! Wouldn't you think Ford Motor Company would have invented that system ? :-) StuRat (talk) 03:49, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

To get back to the long-haul trucking part of the questions, I think most of the 18-wheeler type rigs have a sleeper compartment behind the driver's seat in the cab. These are not usually intended to be used while another person is driving, but it wouldn't be too hard to design some sort of restraint system is case of accident. The main issue is that the whole long-haul trucking industry is designed around a single operator in the cab taking regular (and regulated) breaks, and not a two-person crew alternating between driving and resting. This does happen in long-distance driving competitions, though (see, e.g., Tim Cahill's book Road Fever). --Xuxl (talk) 11:25, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Standing nonstop also has problems. What you really need is a way to allow workers/commuters to (safely) change positions from time to time. 64.235.97.146 (talk) 16:06, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

As far as a standing seat belt, I'm thinking more of an elastic mesh or net than a single belt, attached to a bar that plugs in on one side. This net could run from the armpits down to the hips, with the arms over the top of it. Has anyone invented anything like that ? StuRat (talk) 17:38, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I've seen a harness for children that lets them stand up and move around a bit in a car, while still being anchored, something along the lines of this [6]. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:11, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Despite the Jeep brand on that harness, I don't think it's for use inside a vehicle. That looks like a standard harness for walking a toddler, the equivalent of a dog leash. StuRat (talk) 03:18, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

A gondola is driven by a standing gondolier.—Wavelength (talk) 04:53, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

As is a steam locomotive. Tevildo (talk) 11:17, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Passengers stand in an elevator (a lift), on an escalator, and on a moving walkway. A rider stands on roller skates, ice skates, water skis, snow skis, a skateboard, or a surfboard. (Astronauts float in outer space.) Do passengers stand in the basket of a balloon?

—Wavelength (talk) 14:36, 20 September 2015 (UTC)