Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2014 November 14

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November 14

WPA project completed in 1939

Am searching for information on a particular project that WPA conducted in 1939, at the General Vallejo Home, located at 363 Third St. West, in Sonoma, California, 95476. This address is presently a Ca. State Park, but I am sure the work was done for the Sonoma Valley Irrigation and Water Company. Both the WPA(Works Progress Administration) and the Sonoma Valley Irrigation and Water Co. no longer exist. Any information on this project would be extremely helpful in the restoration of an historical site.

Thank you, Lynn Luzzi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.186.100.251 (talk) 00:09, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Heya Lynn, I did find This database of New Deal era projects at the Roosevelt Library's website. It may give you a start for your research. --Jayron32 01:42, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

There's a brief description of the WPA restoration of the house in 1936–1938 (which doesn't seem to be quite what you're asking about) here. I only mention it because it gives a reference to a 1976 MA thesis by Paulene Goddard called "The Impact of the Works Projects Administration (WPA) in Sonoma County", which might be worth tracking down. If after all the 1936–1938 restoration is interesting to you then you might also try to find some kind of government document or book called “Accomplishments of the Works Progress Administration – Northern California (1935-1938).” Works Progress Administration, San Francisco, CA, 1938, which I find cited here and there. --Antiquary (talk) 10:55, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Turning up late for formal dinner

Hi!

This weekend I am going on a conference with a formal dinner on Saturday evening. However, I have an important appointment elsewhere that I booked long before this conference. This means that I will most likely turn up at the hotel about an hour after the formal dinner had started. I wonder what it is acceptable to do in such a situation, whether I should ask for a seat to be reserved and turn up in the middle of the dinner, or if I should stay in my hotel room until the dinner is over?

Thanks in advance for your replies :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.150.37.142 (talk) 07:22, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

In my case it would depend how hungry I was. Seriously though, this is clearly a request for opinions, something we should reject. So, sorry, no help coming from me. HiLo48 (talk) 07:33, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Taking this question in good faith and not making references to careless double booking, arriving an hour late for a formal dinner will cause problems for you, the other guests and the kitchen (who should not reasonably be expected to hold a meal in table condition for an hour). In this situation you should make an apology to the host and join the dinner after the consumption of the final course. Richard Avery (talk) 07:44, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I would suggest asking the organisers how they would like you to handle it. They may give Richard's suggestion, but they may be willing to make some special provision for you. --ColinFine (talk) 12:59, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Quite. The organisers or host may (almost certainly) have found themselves in a similar situation before and thus understand the issue with previously made plans. A good host would (I hope) announce to the assembly right from the start, that a Mr X will be arriving mid course due to prior engagements. Thus you will not arrive 'late' but at the earliest opportunity. You host will (should) understand and reassure you that they would be glad of your attendance even if miss the silly speeches and hors d'oeuvre. On your arrival the other guest will be more inclined to say Oh good you made it. This should suffice for most occasions, other than one's wedding anniversary.--Aspro (talk) 15:14, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with the previous two posters, and agree with Richard Avery. Turning up partway through a formal dinner is pointless – the whole point of such an event is that those who attend do so from start to finish. In fact I would go further than Richard and say that you shouldn't turn up at all to the dinner, even after the consumption of the final course. Either stay in your hotel room (as you suggest) or, better, go somewhere else for dinner on your own. --Viennese Waltz 16:40, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• Sources that support not arriving at all (4): This source and this one (both admittedly old) generally supports Viennese Waltz's position: either arrive on time or not at all. This source, when read in the light of the first one, generally supports the idea that only the guest of honor is allowed to be late. This source, on arriving late to a formal dinner says only one thing: "Don't."
• Sources that support arriving late (3): This one supports contacting the host(/ess). This source says that the guest should apologize to the host upon arriving late and ask to be started from the current course (rather than from the beginning). It's supported (really repeated) by this source.

The sources that support arriving late are ultimately derived from Emily Post, so it's really possible to argue that only one source supports arriving late. These sources are concerned with England and America, however. I can't really guess what the standard is in Norway. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:04, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

In England, turning up late is the done thing, at least in the sense that it is sometimes done. But then again, I've also once seen someone turn up to a black tie dinner wearing jeans and a shirt and apologetically proceed to partake of the meal (they'd not noticed the dress code, apparently). So anything goes really! As others have said, you will be served starting with dessert if that's the stage the meal has reached when you arrive, unless it's otherwise convenient for the serving staff. (Given how these things proceed though, you might be there in time for the main course.)

If the meal is not at a venue using circular tables, then the advantage of your early apology (and request for permission) to the host(ess), is that your initial absence won't leave anyone short of a conversation partner, as you can be seated in the place of least honour, i.e. furthest from the host/high table/whatever. (This also reduces the embarassment of wandering past all the guests while they're eating.)

I don't imagine anyone will be offended or think it is bad manners. Personally I would be in two minds about attending a dinner in these circumstances, unless it was one I especially wanted to attend. (Next month I'm turning up to an event over an hour later than I normally would, the delay is unavoidable and I want to be there and am somewhat in demand although certainly not the guest of honour.)

The London Evening Standard had something the other week about really important and really busy people turning up to dinners and giving the opening speech and then leaving without eating anything, apparently also the done thing now. I think a previous topic at this refdesk, or else a media source (my memory is poor) had mention of how in some continental European country the populace are shocked at anyone eating any food, even a cheese sandwich, without using knife and fork - so expectations do vary a lot. At a rather less formal "banquet" in the USA for high school students and their parents (also my introduction to the great enthusiasm at such events for drinking iced tea in huge quantities - I'd never tasted it before), cold desserts were laid out on the tables in advance, and I was somewhat surprised when mein host got bored during the opening speeches and ate his dessert a few courses too early. OK I'm out of anecdotes now. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:02, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

This depends hugely on what is the done thing in your field. In my field (academic, mathematics), nobody would bat an eyelid. The organisers would find it quite odd if I contacted them beforehand. Academics are busy people and usually have plenty of other things to do and for many of my colleagues things like finishing of a paper and continuing an interesting mathematical discussion would rate much higher than a social function. Turn up whenever. If you are on the guest list, there will be a place at a table for you somewhere. The kitchen will do their best to give you food, depending on how this is organised you may have missed a course or two of course, so don't expect that you still get the whole meal. I have been to formal dinners where there is at least an hour of other entertainment before people even take seats. Some are buffets where it doesn't really matter when you arrive. But then Mathematicians are a bunch of anarchists anyhow, other fields may make more fuss about social conventions. 86.175.169.103 (talk) 00:02, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

There is only one right answer, and that is that you need to contact the organizers of the gathering and get their opinion. Far worse than being late would be not communicating that fact when you know about it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:31, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with Bugs 100%. Except if you are the mayor of NYC, Bill de Blasio, you can even have your aids call to ask that a ceremonial bell ringing to mark the deaths of Flight 587 be delayed because you were a little groggy when you woke:

  “They asked us to delay the moment of silence to wait until the mayor got there,” Miriam Estrella said. It was an explosive charge about the mayor’s failure to show up on time for a memorial service commemorating the 13th anniversary of the crash of the American Airlines flight. Estrella, who lost five family members in the crash, refused. She rang the bell starting the moment of silence at precisely 9:16 a.m., the exact moment of the crash. “They kept telling us, ‘Wait, he’s coming. He’s coming,’ and I said, no, we’re not waiting. We’re not going to wait for him for a moment of silence. It happened at a certain time. That’s the time that we have to toll the bells,” Estrella said.

  Source: New Yorkers Blast Mayor After He Offers A Litany Of Excuses For His Tardiness. μηδείς (talk) 06:42, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
  • "*sigh* --Onorem (talk) 06:59, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• fart*? Is there some reason we're reporting bodily functions here? μηδείς (talk) 01:21, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

No, that is certainly not the right answer. Asking the organizers what to do risks putting them in a difficult position. They would prefer you not to turn up at all rather than turn up late, but they don't want to offend you by saying so. So they say, "By all means, turn up whenever!" and this gives you a licence to do the wrong thing. Stay away altogether, it's the only polite thing to do. --Viennese Waltz 08:43, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• Thinks this boils down to: If one is invited to an Barack Obama dinner or a Queen Elisabeth II banquet at Buckingham Palaces, complete with a wine list that would probably buy one an apartment in lower Manhattan. Then one is is the position to have ones staff to cancel all ones other engagements. But for the OP's point. Most peoples job spec does not include, being seen and reported in the press by attending formal functions. Most people are not politicians, diplomats and captains of defence industries for whom attending 'formal function' is a major part of their job and sod anything else. Instead, most guests may have real responsibilities that come first (or their country may fall behind in international economic competition) they can't delegate their problems to whole departments (which do the real work.) If a host is so out of touch with the real world, then what point is there, in going to one of their functions in the first place and so by perhaps, getting tainted by their ignorance? If the host would like the OP to attend and the OP would like to attend -then that is all that is important. Not the views of a few, who pontificate some silly made up protocol that maintains a position of one-upmanship. One does not invite a guest in order to have them Kowtow to you but because you value their presence. So do not invite me to any of your functions! I don't want to know.--Aspro (talk) 01:11, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Clearly this is a matter of opinion, and therefore out of place at RD. The very first reply was correct, and everyone else disregarded that correct assessment, ignoring the statement at the top, "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." I'm not sure what Richard Avery's reference to "good faith" was about; the correct assessment had nothing to do with the OP's good faith. Please. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 08:54, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

For an academic conference, at least in computer science, being late for the conference dinner is no big deal. Informing the local organisers may be a nice touch, but may also fizzle to no effect, depending on the particular people. Academics are not usually formal people, so their concept of "formal dinner" is "3+ courses, wine, and mostly eat with utensils, not fingers". It's not exactly like a dinner with the Queen - at the very first conference dinner I went to, one of the older professors showed up in surplus camouflage pants cut off at the knees, a khaki-green army shirt with rolled-up sleeves, combat boots, and carrying a large canvas backpack. He made good conversation (on parallel symbolic computation, of course ;-), so he was popular. If it's a private party, excuse yourself to the host and find out their preferences. If you need to preach on the appropriateness of answers, do so on the talk page. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:16, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't see it that way. There is nothing ambiguous about the instructions at the top of the page, or here, so this is not "preaching" and there is no requirement to seek consensus in talk. I'm hatting this; if someone feels justified in reverting that, then we can go to WP:VPP and discuss whether that guideline is important enough to be observed even when the majority present feel inclined to ignore it. My feeling is that the Reference Desk is more important than that. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 09:23, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Unhatted by Stephan Schulz; hope to see you there. If the community wants it this way, so it shall be. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 10:40, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

If you google the subject, you will see that the right thing to do is to communicate with the organizers. That's a matter of courtesy and respect. If you have enough respect for the organizers to communicate to them that you're going to be X minutes late, then you're good. They might say yes and they might say no, but they'll appreciate it either way. If not, then you shouldn't go. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:42, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Link to the VPP discussion, for your convenience. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 11:03, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• Why all the augment? The OP is requesting advice on etiquette. To quote:‘Manners’ is a term usually preceded by the word good or bad to indicate whether or not a behavior is socially acceptable. Every culture adheres to a different set of manners, although a lot of manners are cross‐culturally common. Manners are a subset of social norms which are informally enforced through self-regulation and social policing and publically performed. Even cultural anthropology recognizes this. Thus, the only way to find out for sure is to contact host or organizers. Why should Asking the organizers what to do risks putting them in a difficult position.  ? Unless of course they are completely autocentric. Princess Anne of the UK doesn't drink wine and so the host will be informed that a substitute needs to be provided, other guest may want to know if pork or other foods are on the menu etc., etc. Accommodating these issues is a sign of a good host too.) Now I'll give my opinion : just put those RSVP's in the bin. Not good etiquette I know but it tends putting them off sending you another one in the future. That is I agree, my POV based on pragmatism derived from just personal experience alone. Politer I think, than replying to say: Sorry that I am unable to attend you function to raise funds for City Bankers that have found themselves loosing their bonuses and are now facing hard times – or whatever! </personal opinion> Anyway, it is now Sunday and perhaps the OP can come back and report on how he handled it and how it went.--Aspro (talk) 16:27, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

holocaust marker for tomb stones

I heard I can buy a something that says "Holocaust Survivor" for my dad's tomb stone. Is this correct? Where can I read about this and what is the cost? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:ce29:59b9:2140:65a7:1740:19ea (talk • contribs)

If he is deceased or has bought a plot, contact the cemetery. They will both know who you should contact, and will advise if adding such a marker is allowed--certain types of additional displays are not allowed in many cemeteries--an option is having the text added to the engraving on the stone itself. μηδείς (talk) 19:02, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I assume you are a US resident based on your IP address. I suggest you also check state law for your area. Some areas no longer allow standing headstones. This article shows a bronze adornment to a gravestone that might interest you. μηδείς (talk) 01:17, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

What Violin piece is being played in this youtube video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0a6aie7pjk Venustar84 (talk) 22:53, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

You can often identify music by opening up two browsers, one with the music, such as the youtube clip, and the other at the website Midomi. Get the music cued up and the play it loud enough so that your built in mike picks it up and click on the identify music button. Midomi is pretty accurate, you can even hum the music into it if you can stay in tune. I have done it to identify classical music. μηδείς (talk) 01:21, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

youtube comments identify the music: It's Beethoven Violin Sonata No. 5 "Frühlingssonate" or "Spring Sonata" . . . wonder why Midomi requires you to download an app to use it? Raquel Baranow (talk) 01:34, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

It didn't require that of me, presumably my high-end laptop already had the necessary driver. There are several websites that do this, midomi was recommended me on the entertainment desk, and has worked the three times I've used it, twice humming and once playing a youtube video in a separate browser. μηδείς (talk) 03:47, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I tried using it to identify Moldau from Smetana's Ma Vlast by humming it, and the result was "I'm a little teapot". :) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 01:37, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

I had no trouble getting Vivaldi's exquisite Guitar Concert in D, 2nd Movement identified by singing Da duh Da duh... μηδείς (talk) 18:19, 17 November 2014 (UTC)