Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 November 3

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November 3

Strange Vietnam photos

Hello, I was watching Dogfights and there was an episode about Vietnam. I noticed Duke Cunningham and William P. Driscoll in their F-4 Phantom II. During the war, they had five kills. But on their fighter, they have eight victory flags. I also noticed a picture of Dwight Timm, who was not an ace, but had eight victory flags on his Phantom. Does anyone know why this is? Thanks. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 02:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't say with confidence, but the reason may have to do with the way multiple-pilot kills are awarded. Different systems of awarding kills have been used (see the history of Flying_ace#World_War_I). If several pilots contribute to the downing of a plane, they could each get partial credit. That might be the reason for the difference you noted. It might mean that they had five individual kills, but contributed to three other multi-pilot engagements. Maybe? 152.16.16.75 02:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe credit for bombing runs? BrokenSphere^{Msg me} 02:49, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It's the multi-pilot kill thing. If two planes cooperate to shoot down an enemy, they are both awarded a half-kill but the picture of the kill is still stencilled on the sides of both planes. It's hard to figure what combination of partial credits would get you 5 kills and 8 stencils...but it's possible. What also complicates things is that these planes have two-man crews and things like kill credits and stencillings get messy when a pilot flies with a different copilot. SteveBaker 14:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

"It's hard to figure what combination of partial credits would get you 5 kills and 8 stencils...but it's possible." 2 full kills and 6 partial, surely? Assuming constant pilot/copilot and no more than 2 planes co-operating on any one kill. k+0.5p=5, k+p=8 79.69.104.107 15:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Voice cloning

Is it possible to exactly clone someone's voice? I remember hearing somewhere that scientists somewhere developed technology where, given a 30-second clips of someone's voice, they can render another person's voice to sound the same. Acceptable 04:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that's true. Where you heard it was probably in "Mission Impossible 3" - which is pure fiction. SteveBaker 14:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

They also did something like this on Face/off. Using proper sound engineering software, it might be possible. --Ouro (blah blah) 12:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

You might be able to get something that will fool some humans or cheap software, but fooling someone who knows the voice or a well written computer program, no. Exact duplication is impossible because your own voice varies a lot depending on your mood and your health, and will change as you age, take up or give up smoking, as well as other factors. Steewi 01:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

You're probably thinking of Speech synthesis#Diphone synthesis. It's sorta-vaguely-kinda possible.

Atlant 17:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Blockbuster movie rentals

I happened to be reading [1] which contains a lot of hate towards Blockbuster, I've read of other people hating the company, usually in forums such as digg.com. Anyway, DVD rentals. Here in New Zealand there are a lot of DVD rental companies, all usually little ones, say one company in each city having 1-5 branches or so and about 10 or 20 different companies in total. No one would have a market share more than 20% I guess. What's the situation in the US? According to Wikipedia, there is about one store per 90,000 people for Blockbuster. What's their market share? I'm just after a guesstimate. Thanks.

Mjm1964 05:36, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

There's a story on slashdot linking to that exact article. Anyway, the dominant players are Blockbuster for brick-and-mortar and Netflix for online. See Online_DVD_rental#United_States. After reading through the slashdot comments (blowing my mod points) the general consensus seems to be that blockbuster is crumbling (it's pretty obvious) due to an outdated corporate policy, over-cutbacks, and a general lack of interest in putting up with their crap (late fees?!). Blockbuster is dying- in fact, Netcraft confirms it. --ffroth 06:38, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Blockbuster angered people in their early days by refusing to stock certain titles, such as The Last Temptation of Christ, because of Wayne Huizenga's religious beliefs. I don't know if they still have the same policy, but it did turn off a lot of people, who looked elsewhere for their films. Corvus cornix 18:36, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

copyright protection

As I understand it, it's legal to sell or trade your DVDs because you own the disk.

But is it legal to sell or trade a legitimately-purchased digital version of a movie? What about ripping a DVD, selling the digital version, and destroying the disk? Or even keeping the disk- it's yours, you can do what you want with it right?

What about books? There are large communities of book lovers who trade books which is obviously fine and has been going on for centuries.. but is this still legal if you're trading ebooks? If, to save shipping costs, you just typed the whole book into your computer and emailed it, is that legally different from mailing the physical book, even though it's the same content? What about copying the book physically- hand copying every page and sending the copy to your friend. Does that have the same $100,000 + 5 years in prision maximum penalty as emailing a song?

The reason I ask is because the MPAA seems to have really succeeded in creating fear, uncertainty and doubt about digital content having all sorts of outrageous legal protections, and I can't tell- is all of this true? Is it really legal to sell your DVD but somehow illegal to sell the digital version? --ffroth 06:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

See the article on First-sale doctrine. First-sale doctrine concerns a particular lawfully made copy; that is, an original physical object. If you make a copy and distribute it, the copy is not covered by first-sale doctrine, even if you destroy the original. Our article does say;

So, for example, if the copyright owner licenses someone to make a copy (such as by downloading), then that copy (meaning the tangible medium of expression onto which it was copied under license, be it a hard drive or removable storage medium) may lawfully be sold, lent, traded, or given away.

...but I think that's legally questionable. FiggyBee 06:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

IANAL and this is not legal advice. I have simply reviewed the related Wikipedia articles to see what they have to say about the subject. What I've garnered from the articles is this: The specifics of the laws will vary with jurisdiction, but in general, Copyright states that "it is lterally 'the rights to copy' an original creation." In other words, if you don't have the right to copy, then you don't have the right to copy. Period. The same article, under the section Exclusive rights, lists as the first exclusive right "to produce copies or reproductions of the work and to sell those copies (including, typically, electronic copies)." Specific to your question, the section The first-sale doctrine and exhaustion of rights says "Copyright law does not restrict the owner of a copy from reselling legitimately obtained copies of copyrighted works, provided that those copies were originally produced by or with the permission of the copyright holder." That would indicate that copies produced without the permission of the copyright holder, for whatever reason or by whatever method, would violate copyright unless they fall under Fair use and fair dealing. The Legality section of Copyright infringement, speaking of the first sale doctrine which allows a person to resell a legally-purchased copyrighted work, says "This, however, is not a defense to the reproduction right." The Criminal offences section of the same article also covers the hypothetical situations you mentioned, in the same vein as the Copyright article does. If you are considering copying a copyrighted work, for any reason, you would be well advised to consult a legal professional in your jurisdiction before doing so to ensure that your method and purpose are both legal. 152.16.59.190 08:38, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The copyright law says you can't make copies of copyrighted material. Period - not even for your own use. HOWEVER, the "fair use" rule (which is annoyingly vague) is an allowed defense in the case of copyright violation. It's not a law that's written down somewhere - it's a set of judicial decisions handed down in different courts over a lot of years - 'case law' - that basically allows copying within some limited situations if a whole pile of fuzzily-defined conditions are met.

So this fair use doctrine basically says that you can violate the copyright on the original disk in order to (for example) rip a copy of a CD so you can play it on your MP3 player - or make a backup of a computer disk in case it gets scratched. These are considered "fair" uses of the copy. Photocopying an entire book might not be considered fair. Photocopying one chapter so you can make notes on it MIGHT be considered fair use providing it's not more than maybe 15% of the book. Copying a paragraph out of a book so that you can quote it in another book that is commenting on the original book - and then making a million copies is also fair use. Making a parody of an entire movie is considered fair use.

But even with fair use, copyright law still applies. If you rip a CD, then sell the original disk, you no longer have that fair-use defense - so if someone like the RIAA sues you for copying the disk, then your fair use defense has gone away and you are in deep trouble. Similarly, if you sell the copy - you have violated those fair use provisions by making a profit from your copy - even if you give the copy away for $0.00 then it is argued that you are taking away a potential sale from the original producer of the material and that's not a fair use.

But the rule is rather vague - because it's case law, it varies wildly between juristictions, and there isn't a law weritten down in a book somewhere that you can look up and quote in your defense. Anytime you make a copy of a copyrighted work, you are risking prosecution - even though you may have a valid fair use defense.

There is nothing different IN PRINCIPLE about digital media - in theory you can quite legally sell the original version of the file, but you must not copy it in order to do that because you aren't allowed to make copies except under fair use and selling a copy would be illegal. So under the First-sale doctrine you could theoretically sell the hard drive or the MP3 player that you legally made that first download onto. But if you make another copy from that original (even if you just moved the file someplace else on the same hard drive) - then theoretically you have no defense. So with a digital download, if you copy it onto someone elses computer/MP3 player/whatever then you broke the law EVEN IF YOU DELETED YOUR ORIGINAL COPY. This is a place where the law needs to be fixed because sooner or later, hard-copy music and movies are going to vanish from the world and people will find themselves paying thousands of dollars on music and movies over the years with no way to sell that asset when they need to. Since even routine operations like defragging your hard drive strictly speaking have to be done under 'fair use' provisions (because the defragger copies files from one place to another on the hard drive it's violating copyright) - it's very unlikely that you'll ever be able to legally sell a digital download. Understandably, the MPAA and RIAA are not too bothered by that!

SteveBaker 14:24, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

As all the foregoing responses clearly point out - this is a minefield - and rightly so - but to reduce the legal logic to more simplified terms - when you buy a CD, or DVD, or Book, or picture etc., all you are acquiring lawful possession of, is the disk itself, or the paper contained in the book, including the cover and the ink thereon, or the physical paper or canvas the picture is painted on, and the right to enjoy listening to, watching, or reading the intellectually protected material thereon - in other words, you do not acquire any rights of ownership of the music, images, formulae, typeface, or words etc., etc. And as you don't own 'em, you can't copy 'em, share 'em, sell 'em, or distribute 'em. Clear? Good. I can't make it any clearer. By the way, I claim sole ownership of the foregoing words, but I give you the right to quote me, without fear of legal redress. 81.145.242.136 23:38, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

By writing for Wikipedia, "You agree to license your contributions under the GFDL" - so you don't have to give me permission - I already have that. SteveBaker 17:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I know that - I gave it to you - twice - once when I wrote my response in accordance with Wiki GFDL policy - and secondly when I said so in my response - Jeeeezzzzz81.145.240.230 19:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Southwest Airlines direct flights

If you are on southwest airlines and you have to make 1 or more stops at an airport but stay on the same plane without going in the airport. (hence direct flight) are you allowed to go to a better seat once the aircraft is on the ground if you do not like your current seat.--logger 07:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

If seats aren't allocated (which apparently they're not) then I don't see why not. Ask a flight attendant if you're not sure? FiggyBee 08:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Im just thinking that if there was anyone who was to get off at one of these stops and they had a good seat then i would switch to it.--logger 08:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

That would not be a direct flight. Direct, as far as I've ever known it, did not include any stops whether or not you got off the plane and onto another one doesn't matter as you still made a stop. At the stop, your plane would most likely take on more passengers who would also be assigned seats just like you had been. When they got to their seat and saw you sitting there, some confusion might ensue. You'd have to work it out with that person if you wanted to switch. Though, they may be travelling with someone so if you took their seat, they may not be seated near their travelling companion if your seat (the one you vacated) is very far away. Dismas|^(talk) 10:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Dismas, you're talking about a "nonstop" flight. A "direct" flight can include stops. In fact, some people cpnsider the term "direct flight" to imply that there are stops, because if there weren't any, they'd say "nonstop". --Anonymous, 10:58 UTC, Nov. 3.

Yes - it is a distinction between flights that land and you have to switch planes and flights where you land and then take off again in the same plane. Southwest have some special restrictions in this regard because of some wierd laws revolving around flights from Love Field in Dallas, Texas where Soutwest are mainly flying from. When the big Dallas/Ft.Worth airport (DFW) was built (a joint effort between Dallas and Fort Worth), the two cities agreed that their own old municipal airports would not compete with DFW for long distance traffic. This wasn't a problem for Fort Worth who sold their municipal airport for freight operations - and it's mostly full of FedEx planes now. But passenger flights originating at Dallas Love-Field are only allowed to fly to places in Texas or the states immediately adjacent to Texas. Hence, Southwest airlines make (often unnecessary) stops in adjoining states before continuing on to wherever people actually want to go. It's a weird, stupid and unnecessary restriction - but there you are. SteveBaker 13:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe Southwest assigns seats, it only boards people by section so that the people in the back can get in faster. So yes - preferably in your own section, switching to another section may throw off the count. -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 23:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Globalization future

What is the future iof globalization 20 yrs. from now.

also what is the role of mncs in helping spread globalization? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sreyansh cool (talk • contribs) 08:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Which is the biggest MNC in India. What role does the labour forceplay and what does it get in return? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sreyansh cool (talk • contribs) 08:03, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't help you with the future part, sorry. What's an MNC? Cryo921 10:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

A multinational corporation, presumably. Algebraist 11:11, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I thought that might be it. Any clue what the biggest one in India is?Cryo921 06:44, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Anyone who claims to be able to predict what happens to things like this as far as 20 years into the future is a charlatan. There is no possible way to know. SteveBaker 13:46, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

police officer

what kind of degree do you need to become a police officer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.101.53.151 (talk) 08:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Which country? Here in New Zealand, you don't need a degree. Mjm1964 09:35, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

You don't need a degree here in the States either. Dismas|^(talk) 09:36, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

In California, and nearest me it is a 930 hour police academy, they generally do 2 intensive format(6 month mon-fri) academy's and 1 extended format(10 month fri night, all day saturday, and sunday) academy. No higher degree is required, but you must have a valid drivers license, and no felony convictions. Though our Chief does weigh not having a degree against having it when he hires, any type of criminal justice classes or criminal law classes look good. In California you get certificates based on length of service, POST Basic, POST Intermediate, POST advanced etc., having a degree can help you acquire these faster, based on the fact that certain college credit is needed for certain certificates, info on the certificates are here mind you this is for California. Also after you are hired and working you are sent to training on a regular basis, for certain classes, 11550 school, drug symptomology, perishable skills, electronic crimes, etc, etc. Dureo 11:20, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The third degree of course. Clarityfiend 19:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Here is the US, in most cases, a degree is not required to meet the minimum requirements. However (as with most jobs), the more education/experience you have the better chance you have of getting the position and a higher base pay. A Criminal Justice degree and/or military experience will certainly give a person a leg up over his/her competitors. As an officer moves up in the ranks, a Criminal Justice degree can make a difference if an officer gets a promotion or not. If two candidates have the exact same amount of experience and expertise, but one has a Criminal Justice degree, that gives that candidate an extra advantage. More and more departments, however, would like to add it as a requirement, but they are having trouble recruiting as it is. USA Today has an article on just this exact thing. You can find it here. I hope this helps! Josborne2382 23:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

You don't need a degree to go into police forces in the UK. There are some graduate entry programmes here, but it doesn't trouble the boys in blue at all whether your degree is in metallurgy or the history of art. Xn4 02:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The requirement in Australia is a full drivers' licence, and an age over 25. I don't think there is a degree requirement, although some areas require qualifications, such as IT Fraud,, forensic work, medical and legal issues, and so on. Steewi 01:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

2012 the end of the world?

Will the world end on December 21st, 2012? --Candy-Panda 11:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

No. --Taraborn 12:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

According to one calendar, yes. Prepare now. Dismas|^(talk) 11:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The Mayans didn't really think it would...and I think it's a long shot. damn EC Dureo 11:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep, it's just a certain silly modern interpretation. 2012 sees the end of a baktun, but it isn't (and wasn't to the Mayans) the "end of the world". FiggyBee 11:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

A brief history of the apocalypse.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 13:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The closest interpretation to "the end of the world" would have been "the end of the Mayan civilisation" - sadly, that prediction came true *way* ahead of schedule. But even if they were predicting total destruction of all mankind on that day - why would you think they were even remotely likely to be right? It's really unlikely that they knew anything that we - with all of our science and technology - don't. The world is far too chaotic (in the mathematical sense of chaos theory) for anything like weather or human activities, wars, global warming, whatever to be predicted for even 100 years ahead no matter your skill level, it's simply mathematically impossible to do that. Just about the only kinds of things that could have been predicted that long ago would have been astronomical events. Maybe you'd be able to calculate that an earth-smashing asteroid was on a collision course and aiming to whack us all on that particular day. But whilst the Mayans were very interested in the heavens - and their math was probably strong enough to do the number crunching - there is no evidence of telescopes from that era - let alone, gigantic ones that would be able to take the necessary and accurate measurements of a tiny flea-speck of an asteroid well enough to do the prediction and get it right. SteveBaker 13:36, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. :) shoy (^words _words) 18:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36. bibliomaniac15 A straw poll on straw polls 00:38, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

If the world does end on December 21,2012 then you may certainly add the details to Wikipedia. Lemon martini 20:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

But only once a book or magazine has been written about the event so you have something to reference. We wouldn't want to drop our standards by allowing OR into the matter, and you wouldn't want your last moments of existence to be a flame-fest in WP:AfD. SteveBaker 21:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

It's possible that by then we'll have the technology to move to a different planet and if we do, there's absolutely no doubt we'd continue WP from there. We'd just download it onto a few CDs and add it to our luggage. Why waste all that good work? -- JackofOz 22:29, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm - if you think it'll fit onto a few CD's (even now - let alone in 2012), you must be a pretty rabid deletionist! I suppose if we deleted all of the Anime articles and the ones about Japanese railway stations... SteveBaker 19:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, some CDs. Happy?  :) (Btw, I don't mind being rabid, but I'm struggling not to be offended by the very mention of the word "deletionist" in any sentence that has my username in it, Steve. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.)  :) -- JackofOz 23:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Possibly. Ask again Dec 22, 2012. Edison 03:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

U.S. Flag Pin

I haven't noticed until recently, but now it seems everyone involved in U.S. politics is wearing a U.S. flag pin (is that even what they're called?). Is this merely a tradition or is it expected that they do so? Does anyone know when this practice started? Do they wear these pins in their everyday life or just when they are on official duty? Do many ordinary U.S. people wear these as well (e.g. to show patriotism for the U.S.A.)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.208.110.207 (talk) 14:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems to be a tradition which began immediately after 9/11/2001, I certainly don't recall seeing them in use much before then. -- Arwel (talk) 14:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Republicans have worn them since well before 9/11; they're teeny tiny little talismans of patriotism, a code-word for the cognoscenti, a sort of mezuzah of political power.

Atlant 17:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

It is not 'expected' in the sense of being a legal or regulatory requirement, but wearing an American flag lapel pin has apparently become linked in the minds of some pundits (and, possibly, in the minds of some useful Americans as well) with patriotism, motherhood, apple pie, baseball, and all that is good and shiny in the world. At least one Presidential candidate – Barack Obama – made a decision years ago to stop wearing the lapel pin as a prop; he has since been pilloried by at least some branches of the U.S. press. There's a brief summary of that ridiculousness here. See also Bill Maher's commentary on the absurdity of it ([2]):

"...the flag is just a symbol. You're getting pissy about a brooch, you drama queens, one that was probably made in China. It's probably leaking poison lead on you right now.

At least that would be some sacrifice, because let's be honest: this generation doesn't do real sacrifice or even pay for our own wars. That's what grandkids are for! No, we do flag pins and bumper stickers. And not even bumper stickers. Bumper magnets. Because stickers are tough to get off, and we may change our mind about never forgetting."

The fact that a Google search turns up a couple thousand hits for the term 'Lapelgate' should tell you what you need to know about the fixation on those little flags. You'll also get a range of commentary if you search on keywords like 'american flag lapel pins trend'. Good luck. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:11, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Patriotic pins and the like have been around for centuries. There appears to be a spike in use when some national event occurs, like 9/11 or elections. Pins on civilian clothing are a usually personal choice of the wearer, although some groups or agencies may have traditions. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:21, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Technically, wearing a flag lapel pin probably violates the US flag code, as would standing in front of a flag in a commercial, but it's rarely enforced. Corvus cornix 18:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I beg to differ: "Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart," United States Code: 4 U.S.C. § 1 Sec. 8(j).[3] --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 00:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Hah, thanks for that, I didn't know of that exemption. Corvus cornix 20:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Want to edit a page having Ashwatthama, Hindu mythology

I want to expand this topic but not having any kind of proof of what i am saying but it is just a mythology as are the others of Ashwatthama, and also heard from the people of Gujarat.

  And the thing i wanted to add to the topic "Ashwatthama" is:->

It is believed that Ashwatthama everyday early in the morning comes to offer his prayer to lord krishna at his temple at Junagadh in Gujarat. And it is also believed that at the time of Ashwatthama's prayer people present in the temple can not stay awaake at that time. And the temple where he comes for his prayer is "DAMODAR KUND" at Junagadg. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kanwaljeet mehta (talk • contribs) 15:58, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Without proof that people believe this, you shouldn't add it to Wikipedia. Facts in Wikipedia are supposed to be referenced to books or other primary materials. SteveBaker 18:18, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Possibly you mean secondary materials. —Tamfang 03:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Red, White, and Blue(Ty stuffed animals)

--Wwefan1996 17:08, 3 November 2007 (UTC)Nicholas Jones--Wwefan1996 17:08, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Red, White, and Blue (RETIRED) They are a product of TY. They were made in the same year. They sold $4.9 Million dollars in stores such as Hallmark and Many other stores nationwide in the USA

File:Red white blue.jpg

File:All3 red white blue.jpg

Is there a question here? Corvus cornix 18:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Nature Shows

Hello! Does anyone know what some titles of some nature shows are? I already know Planet Earth, but I would like to know some more. Thank you for your time! Zane Wolf 19:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:Nature documentaries has a few more. Algebraist 19:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Meerkat Manor has a lot of fans (including me). Clarityfiend 19:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Zane Wolf 19:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Religion question

Is it possible to be an Agnostic, an Atheist & an Apatheist (all at once)? Thanks. Zane Wolf 19:35, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Someone who does not believe in any god, does not claim to know that gods do not exist, and doesn't care about any of this, would seem to fit the bill. Algebraist 19:48, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you- It was all very confusing :) Zane Wolf 19:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... I'd say a loud no. Agnostics claim "it is impossible/unimportant to know whether gods exist or not" and, on the other hand, atheists say "it can be known whether gods exist or not, and they indeed do not exist". --Taraborn 20:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Right. Atheist can mean either that you personally, passively don't believe in God, or that you actively believe God cannot possibly exist. So the answer to the original question depends on which definition you and the people you're talking to are using. --Masamage ♫ 21:08, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

To the OP: See weak atheism and strong atheism. Normally, when using the word atheism alone, the second meaning is assumed. --Taraborn 22:42, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thank you all for your replies, it's helped alot with what I was wondering --Zane Wolf 21:53, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think all three views are strictly logically possible at once - but they are all fairly vague terms. But an Apatheist who doesn't care whether god(s) exist or not can hardly claim to actively disbelieve in them (ie to be an Atheist). Similarly, an Agnostic doesn't know whether god(s) exist or not - so they can't (reasonably) simultaneously claim not to believe in them. However, people are not entirely rational (especially when it comes to religion) - and these are fuzzy terms - so I suspect you'd have no trouble finding someone who acted in all ways like an Atheist whilst simultaneously claiming that "they neither know nor care" whether god or gods exist...thereby hitting all three things at once. SteveBaker 17:07, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I neither know nor care whether a person named Zbigniew R. X. H. Mountbatten-Smithee exists, but I believe very strongly that there is no such person. Well, maybe I care a little bit. -- BenRG 20:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, nothing came up when I ran that name through Google, so you might be onto something. — Michael J 02:49, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I've certainly been a lifelong Azbigniewist. SteveBaker 04:58, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Does that include this guy? -- JackofOz 12:05, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm a reformed, non-practicing, 7th day azbigniewist. Stop persecuting me by questioning my honestly held beliefs! Hate speech, HATE SPEECH! SteveBaker 19:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I Think the problem is many of these words have taken on definitions that are not universally accepted. Agnostic means you don't know either way if or not god exists. It does not mean you do or do not believe in god. Atheist means you do not believe in god (it has nothing to do with saying god does not exist). So yes it would be possible to be all 3, as long as you did not believe in god.--Dacium 03:32, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Great discussion starter though.Julia Rossi 23:50, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

@Dacium - Are you saying one could simultaneously believe that God exists but not believe that he/she/it has any power or influence? Or be undecided about the existence of God, but if there is one, it has no power or influence? What would be the purpose of such a God? This sounds like an argument that says "If God exists, it has no power or influence, therefore there is no point to its existing, therefore it does not exist, but I don't really care even if it does exist because it is irrelevant anyway". -- JackofOz 23:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

"there is no point to its existing, therefore it does not exist" - This isn't logically sound. --Masamage ♫ 01:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I beg to differ. A being that simultaneously is (by definition) all-powerful and either cannot or chooses not to exercise any power is a contradiction in terms. If God exists, it only exists because there is a point and purpose to its existence. Therefore, if there were no point, there would be no existence. -- JackofOz 23:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, okay. With those intermediate steps it makes sense. ^^ It does need them, though. --Masamage ♫ 23:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Cryptography question

Hello, I was reindirected here. I'm participating in a game where we need to decode messages, but so far, I wasn't able to yet decypher this one:

000008 00000c 000000 00002k 000005 000016 0000c0 0000b8 000104 00011d 0000ke 00005e 0006n6 000afd 00075i 000000 001292 002gko 002m5i 000000 00af70 00j3kh 006dek 01im1e 0332hp 01m90j 000000 0911jd 1104go 0pcjfe 26nobe

I have done my research in the Cryptography portal, without success. I need to know what kind of code is this. Please, help? 85.243.51.196 21:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Uhm. ... There's really no way to tell if you don't even know what algorithm was used. Just loking at it, I'd say each set of 6 characters matches up with 1 letter, and the distribution of 000000s suggest that 000000 represents a space. --ffroth 23:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

If this were correct, the first two words would be one letter each - I can't think of a valid English sentence starting with two single letters. -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 23:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The distribution is 2 SPACE 12 SPACE 3 SPACE 6 SPACE 4 --ffroth 05:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Misread it as group of any # of zeroes stands for a space, sorry. -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 05:58, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Come now, Froth – if code-crackers had to know the method before starting, they'd rarely get anywhere. —Tamfang 03:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

In situations like this, the details of the context are everything. What type of game is this? Are the participants cryptographers or schoolchildren? Was there any kind of information supplied with the messages that indicated possible routes of attack? Is there any guarantee that the message can be decoded by conventional means? What language is the message expected to be in? How long might it be? What were the other messages, and what were the other codes? How difficult were they? Without this information, you will probably not get anybody to put much energy into this one. Ffroth's suggestions are one avenue of attack that should be resolvable easily. They give you a sentences with wordlengths 2, 12, 36, 4. Any twelve letter words in English? Anything related to the contest? Personally I suspect that the clustering in groups of 6 is a red herring, and there's a good chance the zeros are meaningless as well. On the other hand, maybe all the information is in the zeros, and the other alphanumerics are just meaningless padding. risk 01:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

It's certainly an odd code. Most codes try to have as much randomness in the output as possible. This one has a lot of very regular features. Considered as numbers in base 36 (26 letters+10 digits), the numbers start off very small and get larger and larger as the message goes on. There are an awful lot of zeroes in there - something that would not normally happen from a mathematical code. A disproportionate number of characters are digits and there are more characters from the early part of the alphabet than the latter - and there are none at all after 'p'. This suggests that this is in fact a base-26 scheme (0-9 and a-p). Certainly it would help to know all of the context in which the text appears. SteveBaker 16:57, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems the source is this image from this forum. I took a crack at it but can't get any further than the folks on the forum already have. 152.16.16.75 00:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it's a cumulative code; that is, the cipher is started again at every letter. Using a base10 example, the first letter is 8 (which might represent 'h', being the 8th letter of the alphabet. For the next letter, 'a' is 9 and so on. If the next letter is 'e' it would be 13, and 'a' for the third letter would be 14. Now, if you can extrapolate that in some form into the base26 system, it may give some results. On the other hand, the final numbers seem too large for that. Maybe the gap between letters in the cipher also grows each letter. Steewi 01:31, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the forum that this is discussed at, there is additional help with "plaintext" before and after that is in a weird font. The transliteration of the coded section from that font into the ASCII our OP gave us seems to be disputed. If anyone is actually seriously going to attempt this, they need to read the forum - and possibly look at the prior history of other puzzles they've worked on from the same source. SteveBaker 04:56, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

That weird font is the script of the Voynich Manuscript by the way, so don't expect any steganographic messages hidden in the letter shapes. I guess they just used that to make it look esoteric. risk 02:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Some further notes. Including the 0, there are 26 different characters, that's noteworthy at least. There are exactly 100 zero's and 86 other characters. The distribution of the nonzero characters follows that of characters in natural language pretty closely. '1' is the most frequent with twelve occurrences, then '2' with 7 and e with 6. I think a running cypher (like Vigenere) would flatten out that distribution, so that's probably not it. It may just be a simple substitution cypher with added zero's, as the number of zero's seems arbitrary. risk 03:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Warping a Tapestry Loom

So, I've got an old tapestry loom. I just got it a new set of heddles, and was going to warp it, but I have no instructions, because it came out of the attic. I tried google, but none of the two sets of instructions there were for my loom.

There are two stationary bars at the top, the upper one is further forward and the lower one is further back. Then there is a place for four heddles. Next, there is an adjustable tension bar. Then there are two more stationary bars, the bottom one is further forwards and the other is further back. I can take pictures if this makes no sense.

Does anyone know how to warp it? 71.220.101.80 21:37, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't sound like a tapestry loom, sounds like a regular table loom which should warp just like other loom of that type. Is your loom like the first image in our loom article or like the one labeled "four harness table loom"? Rmhermen 21:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It's the top one. I know it's a tapestry loom, I just don't know how to wrap the warp. 138.192.86.254 02:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Clio on Safari

Hey, guys. My boyfriend and I will be spending Christmas and New Year on safari in East Africa: Uganda, Rwanda and Tanzania in the main. We are putting the elements together ourselves, rather than going with the tourist herd. There is one part we're having slight problems with, though, the return flight from Entebbe in Uganda to Kigali in Rwanda. The best price we can get for this online is £400 return (about $800) each with Kenya Airways, which seems excessive when one considers the distance involved. I will pay this if necessary, but what I would like to know-and I expect this is a long shot-if any of you have any idea what it would cost if we waited to buy our tickets in Uganda itself? Beyond that I would be grateful for any travel tips from people who know the region. Thanks ever so. Clio the Muse 23:24, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

You could always go by bus. It would be dead cheap, I bet, and an African bus journey is something everyone should experience once in their life (just once is enough, mind). Rockpocket 00:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I like that suggestion, Rockpocket. There aren't any passenger trains in Uganda any more, and the East African buses are cheap and better than you'd think. With two of you, Clio, the alternative is to hire a car in Entebbe. Someone like Hertz would probably let you drop it off in Kigali - if so, then it looks as if you should need it for one day in each direction, which I guess should cost you something over $100. (When hiring a car in East Africa, you'll find them more obliging if you hire a driver, too.) Xn4 01:52, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Do either of you have any idea what the roads are like? Clio the Muse 03:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

In Uganda, most main roads have been tarmacked, but you'll see bad patches and pot-holes, especially away from the towns. On the main roads, you can probably do better than 40 mph most of the time, but you need to watch out. The minor roads are just hard earth and stones (as roads were in England for most of our history, of course), which is all right, except after a few days of rain, in which case you could get into trouble even with a good four-wheel-drive. I'm supposing Rwanda is much the same, can anyone confirm that? By the way, African buses often wait around at their starting point until they are full, so if you decide to go that way don't expect a strict time-table and a prompt arrival at the other end! Xn4 04:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I have driven around the Lake Victoria vicinity in both Tanzania and Kenya and even the minor roads were fine, if a bit bumpy. However, if it rains you really have to be careful and a 4WD is a must. We had a driver at one point, but after a while we decided it was safer if we drove ourselves. We didn't have a problem renting, but the cars were pretty beat up. I once took a bus from Nyeri to Kitale and it was an amazing experience (if somewhat terrifying through the mountain passes). I have some very close friends in Dar es Salaam who, I'm sure, would be please to meet you for a few drinks should you find yourself in the area, Clio. From what I hear, there is still plenty of White Mischief to be had among the ex-pat community out there (without the murder and probably the sex too. So basically its a lot a gin drinking). Rockpocket 05:35, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

White Mischief, Happy Valley and all that; how wonderful! Pink gins and loose morals; now, that is really what this girl needs! Thank you for your tremendously kind offer about your friends, Rockpocket. I've been rather warned off Dar es Salaam, but-who knows?-it is possible that we might end up there. If you email me their contact details I will be sure to get in touch if I do. Clio the Muse 23:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Clio, make lots of photos :) --Ouro (blah blah) 12:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I intend to, Ouro! Clio the Muse 23:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

If you go to Uganda and you like natural beauty, try to put a visit to Murcheson Falls on the itinerary. --Dweller 14:49, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Dunno about the other countries, but re Uganda and specifically ref the roads... even where tarmacked, you'll find in the rural areas that the edges of the roads may have badly eroded, meaning that when you need to pass a vehicle coming the other way, you'll need to get part of the car off the road. Generally speaking, the roads are quite straight, meaning plenty of prior warning, but in the hillier parts, cars will "appear" from blind spots. Also, beware of schoolchildren walking to/from school on the road... their brightly coloured uniforms are helpful, as is the fact that road sense is part of compulsory primary education in Uganda. --Dweller 14:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

A couple of tips: 1) A couple of years ago, I planned a similar trip, though I ended up sticking to Tanzania. However, I found that better airfares could often be found by contacting the actual carriers (such as Rwandair) directly than by using flight-finder websites such as Travelocity. 2) For my trip, I flew into Arusha, Tanzania, and then flew back from Dar es Salaam. Both flights were handled by KLM, which offered a fare comparable to a round-trip fare even though my arrival and departure in Tanzania were at different airports. The 400-mile road distance from Arusha to Dar es Salaam is comparable to the distance from Kampala to Kigali. I traveled that distance (actually somewhat farther, because I detoured to do some trekking in the Usambara Mountains) by bus. The quality of buses in East Africa varies. I traveled by a 2nd-class bus used by average Tanzanians from Arusha to Lushoto in the Usambara Mountains. This was a bit chaotic and cramped, but it was a pleasanter bus trip than many I have taken in Mexico or India. From the Usambaras to Dar es Salaam, however, I traveled on a (slightly more expensive) first-class bus, complete with spacious seats and air conditioning, that was more comfortable than most intercity buses in the United States. This bus was traveling from Kampala to Dar es Salaam, and you might be able to find a similar bus, mainly serving the local business and moneyed class, between Kampala and Kigali. Marco polo 17:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Marco, that's really useful. Rwandair did not even show in my usual flight finder (Opodo). They have daily flights between Entebbe and Kigali, so I've emailed them to ask about prices. Clio the Muse 23:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks all of you for such a great response. You are all so precious! Clio the Muse 23:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Carry a couple of gallons of drinking water (can't hurt, might help). Enjoy. Edison 03:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)