Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 September 23

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September 23

Charcuterie

According to a Wikipedia article, charcuterie is a branch of French cuisine devoted to prepared meat products, such as bacon, ham, sausage, etc. According to another Wikipedia article, lunch meats are precooked or cured meats that are sliced and served cold or hot.

Question: is there a term in English for precooked or cured meats, such as bacon, ham, sausage, etc., in general, regardless of whether they are sliced or made in France? — Kpalion^(talk) 13:44, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

@Kpalion: In a fine example of how the English language is unafraid of adopting words from others, it's charcuterie. Bazza 7 (talk) 14:16, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Does it mean that the Charcuterie article is wrong in restricting the term to French cuisine only? — Kpalion^(talk) 14:58, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't restrict it; it just doesn't mention it has been incorporated into omnivorous English, whose appetite for foreign words is insatiable. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Interesting — I didn't realize anyone restricted it to just meats. What I tend to think of as a "charcuterie board", often served at outdoor events, has mostly cheeses (a selection of fresh, semi-soft, and sometimes a few aged), dried and fresh fruit, nuts, jams, honeys, and crackers, with maybe just a few little sausagey meaty things. Often taken with little flutes of sparkling wine. Is there a more specific name for this sort? --Trovatore (talk) 23:28, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, etymologically, char cuit is just Old French for cooked meat. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 01:30, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

That sounds closer to a cheeseboard to me. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:18, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Let me put the question differently: would you use the word "charcuterie" (in English) to describe what you see in this picture? — Kpalion^(talk) 08:11, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I might worry briefly about it being a misnomer on my part, but I would. Remsense ‥ 论 08:13, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

@Kpalion: It's a good word for that picture, although I can't recall it being used in conversation (in English English). Bazza 7 (talk) 08:50, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Are there any alternatives then? — Kpalion^(talk) 09:35, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Charcuterie is used in conversational English, but can appear affected. OED gives citations back to 1858. The native terms would be cold cuts or cold meats. DuncanHill (talk) 10:07, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I would expect "charcuterie" to be used to describe those meats after they had been cut into small portions, and only in the term "charcuterie board" describing a bunch of them along with cheeses and crackers. As is, I would just call them precooked or cured meats. Or DuncanHill's suggestion of cold meats, "cold cuts" would describe them after they had been cut into slices. I definitely find "charcuterie" to be an affected usage for what trays of what appears to be nothing more than a fancy version of Lunchables. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I like "cured meats" best, as it doesn't imply slicing, serving temperature or country of origin. But is it widespread enough to be commonly understood by native speakers of any variety of English? Lunch meat lists several alternative names, but "cured meats" is not one of them. — Kpalion^(talk) 13:35, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

@Kpalion: I think you will struggle to get something which covers all varieties of English. "Lunch meat" is not used in my own English English and may be confused (especially by people of a certain age) with "luncheon meat" (which is not the generic item the luncheon meat article suggests]]).

I agree with your comment about "cured meats". I don't know how widespread the technical term "cured" is; my own experience it that in everyday speech the curing method is more likely to be referred to (e.g. smoked, salted, pickled, etc.). Bazza 7 (talk) 13:51, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

This page (in Emgland) seems to use "chacuterie" and "cured meats" as synonyms. I believe both terms would be widely understood here. Alansplodge (talk) 14:00, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Where does the AMerican term "cold cuts" fit in here? HiLo48 (talk) 00:42, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I mentioned "cold cuts" above. The OED defines charcuterie as "Cold cuts of meat, esp. pork, ham, sausages, etc. Also, a shop that sells goods of this kind". DuncanHill (talk) 01:31, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

And I'm looking for something more generic, yet still recognizable. A term that would cover both cold cuts and a whole grilled sausage (uncut and served hot). So far, "cured meats" seems like the best fit, but would it be understood in America? — Kpalion^(talk) 09:07, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

If it's served hot is it even charcuterie? DuncanHill (talk) 11:09, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, is it? And if it's not, then what is it? Say, you can buy a link of smoked sausage and then you can either slice it up and serve cold or grill it and serve hot and uncut. Does it only become charcuterie in the first case, at the moment of serving, but not in the other case? Does the term "charcuterie" not apply before serving? — Kpalion^(talk) 11:54, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Kpalion: As I hinted above, your quest may be difficult to fulfil. The assumption that there must be a single word is mistaken. It would help if you gave an indication about when or where such a word is needed.

@Alansplodge gave a link above to a specialist retailer which sells "charcuterie". A large supermarket chain, on the other hand, refers to those products as cooked and continental meats; another, more upmarket, uses the same ans adds deli for good measure.

At a personal level, on the other hand, if I buy some smoked sausage from my supermarket's deli counter, slice it and serve it cold, I'd call it "smoked sausage". If I have it whole and hot, then I'd call it "smoked sausage". If I needed to differentiate between the two, I might add "cold" or "hot". The same might apply to bacon, or pork loin, or pastrami, etc. Bazza 7 (talk) 12:21, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

You said you'd buy your (whole) sausage at a deli counter. So perhaps "deli" is the word I'm looking for? Is it an exact synonym of "charcuterie" or "cured meats", or is there some difference in its scope? — Kpalion^(talk) 12:39, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

See delicatessen. 2A02:C7B:120:C500:65D0:46B7:4AB7:C9BB (talk) 14:25, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

That seems fairly close, but you'd need to specify deli meats, since typical deli counters and delicatessens also contain other sorts of foods (cheeses, prepared side dishes such as potato salad and slaw, etc.). Deor (talk) 14:29, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Although we have delicatessens in Britain, the phrase "deli meats" sounds distinctly American to me, so it depends on the variety of English required. Alansplodge (talk) 08:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you all for your input. — Kpalion^(talk) 08:31, 3 October 2024 (UTC)