Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 June 13

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June 13

This looks like gruesome English to me

In our Bill Gates article, we have the statement that "On May 3, 2021, the Gateses announced they had decided to divorce...." Is "Gateses" really acceptable? HiLo48 (talk) 00:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

That would be a normal plural for names ending in "es". For example, the old saying, "Keeping up with the Joneses." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:41, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I've certainly heard that usage. But I don't think I've seen it written down before. HiLo48 (talk) 00:50, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, you certainly can't say "the Gates". Arguably might have been better to say "Bill and Melinda Gates", but if you want to use the surname only, this is the only choice. --Trovatore (talk) 01:55, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Bugs is right. It is a perfectly normal plural. DuncanHill (talk) 22:51, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Here's more about Keeping up with the Joneses. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:56, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Although correct, if you're extraordinarily concerned about phrasal oddity, you could always just split it into "On May 3, 2021, Bill and Melinda announced..." GalacticShoe (talk) 02:57, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

A few more examples: "the Abramses" (Maida and George Abrams); "the Addamses" (The Addams Family); "the Adkinses" (Rick and Maureen Adkins).  --Lambiam 07:40, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Also The Jameses - the family of Henry James and William James. Alansplodge (talk) 09:31, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I think the issue here is Wikipedia:COLLOQUIAL. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think Gateses is any more colloquial than any other plural surname. It might be worth discussing whether plural surnames are better avoided in encyclopedic writing (maybe with exceptions for things like dynasty names, which seem to have a slightly different function). --Trovatore (talk) 22:35, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Why make an exception to avoid them? It's just normal English. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:02, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

This reminds me of an article I read decades ago— might have been in Harper's Magazine but I'm not able to locate it online right now. At one point it asked a question about the possessive form of Sotheby's. I see the Chicago Manual of Style have now refactored it into an advert. Folly Mox (talk) 12:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I would add it's nothing particular to names, it is used for other English words such as bus/busses, dress/dresses. There are other ways of referring to multiple people such as “the Jones family” instead of “the Joneses”, so it's used less for names, but when used it's the correct way to form a plural.--2A04:4A43:904F:F254:4C30:AEE2:83D4:B16C (talk) 11:34, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Further, the possessive of such a plural is formed perfectly regularly (the Joneses' house), but it seems to present an insuperable difficulty to many people. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:38, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

As here. Deor (talk) 21:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

It occurs to me that what might be bothering friend HiLo is that he may be hearing "Gates" itself as plural, and therefore "Gateses" as a double plural. And my guess is, etymologically, "Gates" probably is in fact plural. That no longer matters, of course, because what Bill's male-line ancestors had to do with swinging doors is long forgotten, but I can see how it could influence one's gut reaction.

I'm curious what anyone here might know about etymologically plural surnames in English. I remember seeing somewhere an explanation of why a large fraction of Italian family names are plural in origin (for example Rossi is a much more common family name than Rosso) but I can't remember what it was or where I found it. --Trovatore (talk) 20:22, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

It also seems to be common in Spanish, such as Rojas and Paredes... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:13, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think "Gates" is plural. As far as I can tell (from a quick Googling) it means either someone who lived by a gate (which could be a gate in the modern sense, or in the old sense of a road), or more specifically someone who worked as a gatekeeper. (Alternatively, a translation of the French Barrière, which meant the same thing, or as an Anglicization of the German Goetz, which had nothing to do with gates). I'm guessing that by analogy to names like Jones it could mean "son of someone called Gate". Iapetus (talk) 10:55, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, I was just guessing. But wouldn't it be plural, in the "gatekeeper" or "lived by a gate" sense? Where else would the s come from? I suppose it could be the genitive, but that doesn't strike me as quite as plausible. --Trovatore (talk) 17:11, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

"Gates English: topographic name for someone who lived by the gates of a medieval town. The ME sing, gate is from the OE pl., gatu, of geat gate (see Yate). Since medieval gates were normally arranged in pairs, fastened in the centre, the OE pl. came to function as a sing., and a new ME pl. ending in -s was formed. In some cases the name may refer specifically to the Sussex place Eastergate (i.e. ‘eastern gate’), known also as Gates in the 13th and 14th cents., when surnames were being acquired." from Hanks, Patricia; Hodges, Flavia (1998). A Dictionary of Surnames. Oxford University Press. p. 206. ISBN 0-19-211592-8.. DuncanHill (talk) 17:57, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh, now that's cool. So Gates is already a double plural, which makes Gateses a triple plural. I did not have that on my bingo card. Thanks, Duncan! --Trovatore (talk) 18:07, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

What about a name like Bates? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:48, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

A patronym from Bat(t)e, a pet form of Bartholomew. See page 37 of A Dictionary of Surnames. DuncanHill (talk) 17:57, 19 June 2024 (UTC)