Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 October 13
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October 13
editPronouncing "boatswain" as one would expect per its spelling
editThe web site dictionary.com says that doing so is rare. But the web site for AHD5 says it is sometimes done but is incorrect. Which dictionary is more precise?? Georgia guy (talk) 12:37, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- Who's to say what is incorrect in English? Unlike some laguages, there is no authority to say how to spell or pronounce words. Dictionaries record what is used, and the main dictionaries all give the primary pronunciation as:
- Bazza (talk) 13:37, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- The OED gives both pronunciations, and says:
N.E.D. (1887) gives the pronunciation as (bōu·tswēin /ˈbəʊtsweɪn/ , usually bōu·s'n /ˈbəʊs(ə)n/ ). The spelling pronunciation has been recorded in dictionaries since the late 19th cent.
CodeTalker (talk) 13:56, 13 October 2023 (UTC) - In addition to the answers already provided, I would speculate that the spelling pronunciation is seen as "incorrect" only insofar as 1. "bosun" is more common for people who have encountered the word before, or among people who actually work on the sea (I assume), and 2. perhaps more importantly, the spelling pronunciation may be perceived as being characteristic of someone who has not been around people who use the "correct" pronunciation, only learning the word through indirect means. Again, this is speculation, but given that this and forecastle are nautical terms, I think it would make sense that the perceived correctness of pronunciation has been shaped by usage by sailors, and pronunciation through spelling would mark someone as not being of the marine tradition, making it "incorrect". GalacticShoe (talk) 14:09, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- There are certain conventions which are observed. For example, the word "Southwark" is universally pronounced "suth-ack." Only through ignorance would anyone enunciate it as "south-waurk." (I'm not sure what an American would do if confronted with this word). 2A00:23C5:E103:3301:10C7:5393:6798:6E3C (talk) 15:02, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- Rather in general, the only way to learn how to pronounce English words is to hear them used. If you only know a word from seeing it written, you can guess, but then you may guess incorrectly. This is particularly so for proper nouns, like Cholmondeley, Smithwick's and Slough. But there is also no way of knowing that the ⟨g⟩ in margarine is soft, or that the ⟨ei⟩s in leisure and seizure are not pronounced the same, other than by hearing the words spoken, or by looking up their pronunciations in a dictionary. I hear academic colleagues who are non-native English speakers pronounce determine as if it rhymes with undermine. If you learn the word from people who mispronounce it, you'll copy their mispronunciation. It may even become dominant, like the mysterious four-syllabic pronunciation /mɪs.ˈt͡ʃiː.vi.əs/ of mischievous. Obligatory link: "De Chaos". --Lambiam 18:46, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- Just a note that leisure and seizure do in fact rhyme for me. I'm aware of the other pronunciation of leisure but wouldn't use it unless quoting (e.g. singing How Can Love Survive). --Trovatore (talk) 19:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yes. In America it's usually pronounced LEE-zher, only pronounced LEH-zher if trying to sound British. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:31, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- And, for some older people in my country, the ⟨g⟩ in margarine is hard. Bazza (talk) 19:29, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- That does seem to make more sense. I went to the margarine article to see if I could find out how the soft-g pronunciation got started, but only found more questions. That article links to margaric acid (surely pronounced with a hard g?) which apparently is a C-17 straight-chain saturated fatty acid, but then claims that "margaric acid" was re-analyzed as a mixture of stearic and palmitic acids (C-18 and C-16 respectively). So does that mean that what they thought was margaric acid was actually a mixture of stearic and palmitic, but then the name got re-used for the C-17 acid? It's not extremely clear from the article, but if so, the link to margaric acid is mis-contextualized. --Trovatore (talk) 21:39, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- The OED says "margarine" is from "
French margarine margarin n. (an application arising from a misconception about the chemical nature of the substance)
(emphasis added). Regarding the pronunciation, it says "N.E.D. (1905) gives as the pronunciation only (mā·ɹgărīn), with /-ɡ-/ ; this pronunciation, which became rare in the second half of the 20th cent., probably underlies the nickname Maggie Ann (see maggie n. 4). N.E.D. (1902), however, s.v. Oleomargarine, notes that the latter is ‘Often mispronounced (-mā·ɹdʒərīn), as if spelt -margerine’ (i.e. with /-dʒ-/ ). The latter pronunciation is recorded in 1913 (with subordinate status) by H. Michaelis & D. Jones Phonetic Dict. Eng. Lang
". CodeTalker (talk) 22:24, 13 October 2023 (UTC)- We've discussed margarine at least once before: here's one such discourse from 2008. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:40, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- If gaol can be pronounced like "jail", then margarine can be pronounced like "marjarin". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:57, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- Most commercial margarines here in Australia seem to avoid calling themselves margarine on their packaging. This could be because they don't want their customers arguing over the pronunciation. ;-) HiLo48 (talk) 00:19, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Really? What do they call it, then? (There are a number of products in the general margarine-verse in the States that don't call themselves that, but I suspect it's because they don't meet the regulated definition.) --Trovatore (talk) 00:35, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- They call themselves spreads, or have such well known commercial names that they use those alone, without saying the real name. HiLo48 (talk) 00:42, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Hmm, searching around a little, that may actually be true here as well. I am not sure why. It could be that they don't want to formulate the product so that it meets the FDA definition (which requires at least 80% fat, and obviously fat is more expensive than water), or it could be that they just don't want to be called margarine, which may have gotten a bad name once people became more aware of how partial hydrogenation can create trans fats. --Trovatore (talk) 01:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- I favour the latter explanation. HiLo48 (talk) 02:57, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Margarine#Spread products has an explanation. The article notes earlier that margerine in the US has by law to have an 80% fat content, while modern spreads have much less. Elsewhere, I suspect that the unpleasant taste of traditional margerine that I remember from the 1960s and 70s might have driven the rebranding. Alansplodge (talk) 10:41, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Some call it something like "I'm pretty sure this isn't butter" (ingredients: 10% yellow; 70% spread; 20% rounding error) so they make you say 'butter' when asking for it. -- Verbarson talkedits 22:46, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Margarine#Spread products has an explanation. The article notes earlier that margerine in the US has by law to have an 80% fat content, while modern spreads have much less. Elsewhere, I suspect that the unpleasant taste of traditional margerine that I remember from the 1960s and 70s might have driven the rebranding. Alansplodge (talk) 10:41, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- I favour the latter explanation. HiLo48 (talk) 02:57, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Hmm, searching around a little, that may actually be true here as well. I am not sure why. It could be that they don't want to formulate the product so that it meets the FDA definition (which requires at least 80% fat, and obviously fat is more expensive than water), or it could be that they just don't want to be called margarine, which may have gotten a bad name once people became more aware of how partial hydrogenation can create trans fats. --Trovatore (talk) 01:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- They call themselves spreads, or have such well known commercial names that they use those alone, without saying the real name. HiLo48 (talk) 00:42, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Really? What do they call it, then? (There are a number of products in the general margarine-verse in the States that don't call themselves that, but I suspect it's because they don't meet the regulated definition.) --Trovatore (talk) 00:35, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Most commercial margarines here in Australia seem to avoid calling themselves margarine on their packaging. This could be because they don't want their customers arguing over the pronunciation. ;-) HiLo48 (talk) 00:19, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- If gaol can be pronounced like "jail", then margarine can be pronounced like "marjarin". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:57, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- We've discussed margarine at least once before: here's one such discourse from 2008. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:40, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- The OED says "margarine" is from "
- That does seem to make more sense. I went to the margarine article to see if I could find out how the soft-g pronunciation got started, but only found more questions. That article links to margaric acid (surely pronounced with a hard g?) which apparently is a C-17 straight-chain saturated fatty acid, but then claims that "margaric acid" was re-analyzed as a mixture of stearic and palmitic acids (C-18 and C-16 respectively). So does that mean that what they thought was margaric acid was actually a mixture of stearic and palmitic, but then the name got re-used for the C-17 acid? It's not extremely clear from the article, but if so, the link to margaric acid is mis-contextualized. --Trovatore (talk) 21:39, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- Just a note that leisure and seizure do in fact rhyme for me. I'm aware of the other pronunciation of leisure but wouldn't use it unless quoting (e.g. singing How Can Love Survive). --Trovatore (talk) 19:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)