Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 November 29

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November 29

Number of syllables in field

The word "field" is labelled by dictionaries as having one syllable. But in practice in usually has 2 syllables. This is in fact true for many words with a vowel before an l. (This vowel can be AY, EE, EYE, or OY. Why do dictionaries ignore how people practically say these words?? Georgia guy (talk) 02:35, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Which people? Australians? HiLo48 (talk) 03:16, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

There are some who pronounce it like "FEE-uld", while there are others that pronounce it like "FILLED". And there are other variations. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

The usual pronunciation of wikt:filled is /fɪld/, which has one syllable. Are there native English speakers who pronounce it as /ˈfɪ.lɪd/ or /ˈfiː.lɪd/?  --Lambiam 09:17, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Georgia_guy -- A slight offglide vowel can develop before a Velarized alveolar lateral approximant, more commonly known among linguists as "dark L", but a fully-bisyllabic pronunciation is not really accepted as Standard English... AnonMoos (talk) 08:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Even pronouncing "field" with a diphthong (followed by /ld/ ), like the diphthong (followed by /d/ ) of "feared" in British English, doesn't make it have two syllables. Unless you want to ask a more general question: Why is a diphthong regarded as a single syllable rather than two, but this general question should not be limited to the word "field" only (according to those speakers pronouncing it with a diphthong). 2A06:C701:4248:8A00:207B:9F06:75B0:F452 (talk) 08:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Quoting from our article Southern American English:

• Southern vowel breaking ("Southern drawl"): All three stages of the Southern Shift appear related to the short front pure vowels being "broken" into gliding vowels, making one-syllable words like pet and pit sound as if they might have two syllables (as something like pay-it and pee-it).

 --Lambiam 09:21, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Presumably, the username might be a hint... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:51, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

If one considers the first-person pronoun, "I", and if one considers it to be pronounced "ah-ee" (said quickly), then one could make the argument that "I" has two syllables! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:41, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

The most notable example is King Edward VIII's Abdication Speech 1936 (at about 2:10) when Edward says ..I have found it impossible to carry the heavy burden of responsibility and to discharge my duties as King as I would wish to do without the help and support of the woman I love". The emphasised "I" is clearly "ay-ee". Alansplodge (talk) 14:23, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

This hypothetical argument could actually be true for every type of diphthong, as I have already pointed out in my anonymous response above. 2A06:C701:4248:8A00:207B:9F06:75B0:F452 (talk) 19:13, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Note that the gliding vowels of the Southern drawl are phonemically considered monophthongs in standard American English. What makes the resulting diphthongs sound especially disyllabic (in the stronger forms of the drawl), more than "normal" diphthongs, is a lowering of the pitch during the glide, so seat ([sii̯ət]) really sounds very close to see it ([ˈsiː ət])  --Lambiam 21:50, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

It's odd that Bugs should have brought up the personal pronoun "I" and its normal diphthongal pronunciation (/aɪ/) in Standard American, since in many Southern accents it's pronounced non-diphthongally as /ɑː/. That's the way a North Carolinian girlfriend I once had pronounced her i's, though she certainly did diphthongize other nomally monophthongal vowels. Deor (talk) 23:23, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

BTW the same is true for South African English speakers: Their "right" is pronounced raht, "nine" is nahn, "kite" is caht (GA English speakers may interpret it as "cot", while British English speakers may interpret it as "cart"), and so forth. Confusing, but this is how it is. As a teenager, I once had a roommate from South Africa, and the first time I heard him say "could you turn off the laht" I was so surprised, but later I gradually got used to his special speech. Then I met another person from South Africa who spoke the same way, so I realized this was how South African English should systematically sound - "as a general rule", despite the great confusion - at least for me - maybe because I'm not a native English speaker, but I'm pretty sure also native British English speakers hearing the South African "right" for the first time - may wonder what this raht actually means, while native English speakers from US hearing the South African "right?" for the first time - will actually hear "rot?" - and will get shoked or embarrassed... 2A06:C701:4248:8A00:207B:9F06:75B0:F452 (talk) 01:33, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

"British English" is diverse enough that speakers will likely understand raht to mean "right" without difficulty. Bazza (talk) 11:16, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Interesting. Which variety of British English pronounces "right" like "raht"? 2A06:C701:4248:8A00:207B:9F06:75B0:F452 (talk) 11:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

In Yorkshire dialect for one. Mikenorton (talk) 11:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

@Mikenorton: Except that the two sounds for the same would not be the same, even if we might transcribe both in the same way. This is where we ought to switch to using IPA, but I'm not sure I have the patience or skill to do so effectively. Bazza (talk) 11:28, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

In IPA, the South African pronunciation of "right" is [rɑːt]. Its vowel is just like that of "cart" in RP accent, transcribed [kɑːt]. 2A06:C701:4248:8A00:207B:9F06:75B0:F452 (talk) 11:38, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Note, though, that in general the phonemic symbols of IPA do not determine the actual sound. The /ɑ/ of language X may differ substantially from the /ɑ/ of language Y.  --Lambiam 12:38, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I presented the transcription in IPA, just because Bazza thought it was important.

However in my opinion, the important question is, not whether there is any phonetic difference between - the vowel of [kɑ:t] / [rɑ:t] of language X (e.g. of South African English) - and the vowel of [kɑ:t] / [rɑ:t] of language Y (e.g. of British English), but rather whether there is any phonetic difference between - the vowel of "kite/right" - and the vowel of "cart", whereas the answer is clear: There isn't such a difference as far as - South African English is concerned, but there is such a difference as far as - all varieties of British English including the Yorkshire variety - are concerned.

To sum up, the important point is not the IPA transcription of raht or of caht, but rather whether there is a phonetic difference between the vowel of "kite/right" and the vowel of "cart". 2A06:C701:4248:8A00:207B:9F06:75B0:F452 (talk) 18:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

@Mikenorton: I'm quoting from our article about Yorkshire dialect: "In Hull, Middlesbrough and much of the East Riding, the phoneme /aɪ/ (as in prize) may become a monophthong [aː] before a voiced consonant. For example, five becomes [faːv] (fahv), prize becomes [pʰɹaːz] (prahz). This does not occur before voiceless consonants, so 'price' is [pʰɹaɪs]". So it seems that the Yorkshire dialects pronounce "right" as it's pronounced in RP accent, i.e. [ɹaɪt], don't they? 2A06:C701:4248:8A00:207B:9F06:75B0:F452 (talk) 12:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Wiktionary gives two Yorkshire pronunciations: /ˈɹeɪt/ and /ˈɹiːt/.  --Lambiam 12:44, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Thnx. Anyway, I was clever enough to estimate it's never raht in the British dialects. Unless one should never say clever... 2A06:C701:4248:8A00:207B:9F06:75B0:F452 (talk) 13:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

You used the notation raht to indicate how the word "right" is pronounced in South African English. I'm not aware of any British English variety which pronounces "right" in the same way as a South African speaker might, but that wouldn't preclude a British English listener understanding what has been said. Bazza (talk) 11:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Agree. My impression is that (British, anyway) English speakers (like myself) exposed to a new or unfamiliar accented English quickly (within a few sentences) and unconsciously absorb how its speakers pronounce particular phonemes (rather than words), and thereafter have little difficulty understanding other common words with those phonemes. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.245.32 (talk) 12:34, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

As a non-native English speaker, this was also my own experience with the new South African accent I had to cope with, as I've already told. 2A06:C701:4248:8A00:207B:9F06:75B0:F452 (talk) 13:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

In general, both for language variety and for genetic variety, variance is greatest where the language/population originally evolved. Hence the greatest number of English dialects and variants are in England itself, just like the greatest genetic variety in humans is in Africa. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:06, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

I dunno. I pronounce it "feeled", like the past tense of "felt" or something like that. Which sort of makes sense, as I'm Midwestern and thus the "standard" dialect, so it makes sense my way of talking would be the way most reflected in an offical definition. (According to the page General American English#Theories about prevalence, "Kenyon, author of American Pronunciation (1924) and pronunciation editor for the second edition of Webster's New International Dictionary (1934), was influential in codifying General American pronunciation standards in writing. He used as a basis his native Midwestern (specifically, northern Ohio) pronunciation." So that's interesting. 71.112.180.130 (talk) 19:41, 6 December 2023 (UTC).

Georgia guy, a coda /l/ triggers an epenthetic schwa after a diphthong, at least in GA. E.g. [fɪld] filled vs [fijᵊld] field. Not exactly two syllables, but not exactly one either. Some people have it with /uː/ (e.g. pool vs pull), but that seems to be being lost. I imagine some people must have it with /oʊ/ as well, though I don't think I've ever heard that. This is evidently a widely remarked phenomenon, according to my phonetics prof.

As for why dictionaries don't mark it, probably for the same reason they don't distinguish aspirated pie from tenuis spy: such phonetic details are automatic for native speakers. — kwami (talk) 03:14, 5 December 2023 (UTC)