Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 April 6

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April 6

Siebenbürgersachsen

Does the German word Siebenbürgersachsen mean both "Transylvanian Saxons (people)" and "Transylvanian Saxony"? As an aside, is the spelling Siebenbürgensachsen (with an N instead of an R) wrong or meaning something else? Thank you! 195.62.160.60 (talk) 14:06, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

It's true that "Sachsen" on its own can be both the name of a region ("Saxony") and the plural form of the demonym ("Saxons"). In the combination with "Siebenbürger" I believe it always refers to the people, as the adjective form in "-er" means "from Siebenbürgen". The alternative form with "-en" seems to be just a rarer alternate, grammatically a simple compound, but it too refers to the people. I don't think the region as such was ever called "Saxony", with or without some addition referring to Transsylvania; the region where the Siebenbürgen Saxonians lived is just "Siebenbürgen" itself. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:40, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. So I guess that hypothetically the only way to refer in German to a conjectural area called "Transylvanian Saxony" would be something like siebenbürgisches Sachsen and that the form Siebenbürgersachsen (or something similar like Siebenbürger-Sachsen or Siebenbürgen-Sachsen) could not be understood that way. Thus Banaterschwaben could only be understood as "Swabians of the Banat" and not as a hypothetical land called "Swabia in the Banat", right? --212.171.96.102 (talk) 20:05, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

It is not entirely obvious, but rests on semantic considerations. East Prussia is historically part of Prussia. A male East Prussian can be referred to as an Ostpreuße,^[1][2][3] of which the plural is Ostpreußen. This is also the German name of the region. BTW, the more usual German orthography is the two-word term Siebenbürger Sachsen.  --Lambiam 20:30, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

In German, the article deployed will determine the meaning:

a die Bayern / die Preussen / die Sachsen / die Schwaben = the people of Prussia, etc. The plural "die" refers to the people.

b das (singular) Bayern / das Preussen / das Sachsen / das Schwaben = the area of Prussia, ... implied here is the omitted term "Land", ie the administrative district.

c if the article is absent, then the verb will differentiate the meaning. A singular (eg Bayern ist ...) refers to the state whilst a plural (Bayern sind ...) talks about the people of Bavaria. To avoid any nitpicking comments: Folks living in Bavaria can be Bavarians, Franks, Swabians plus a multitude of later immigrants of different ethnicities.

Let me add that a native speaker may consider the usage outlined in point b to be clumsy and select a clear construct. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 08:25, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your contribution but I think that it doesn't really answer my question, which is not about differentiating if a word like Sachsen refers to a place or to a population. To clarify my position: I'm aware that Sachsen can mean both "Saxony" and "Saxons". I'm aware that they are grammatically different: one is singular and one is plural, so usually their actual meaning can be easily inferred. I'm aware that some composite forms retain this apparent double meaning, like Niedersachsen (potentially meaning both "Lower Saxony" and "people from Lower Saxony").--212.171.96.102 (talk) 09:05, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I think my original question may have been a little confusing. I apologize. To better explain myself, lets make a made-up thought experiment (but keep in mind that the point is not historical but only linguistic).
We are at the end of WWI, the Austro-Hungarian Empire is collapsing. Three German-speaking minorities, the Transylvanian Saxons in Transylvania, the Banat Swabians of the Banat and the Danube Swabians of Baranya declare their independence, founding three states. Being very nationalistic, they want to name their respective states in German after German regions: Transylvanian Saxony, Banat Swabia and Danubian Swabia (not Saxon Transylvania or Republic of the Transylvanian Saxons, but simply Transylvanian Saxony).
1) The Transylvanian Saxons (called collectively in German: Siebenbürger Sachsen) may probably call their new homeland Siebenbürgisches Sachsen. Is it the only viable, linguistically correct way to name it? What about Siebenbürgersachsen, Siebenbürger Sachsen, Siebenbürger-Sachsen, Siebenbürgensachsen, Siebenbürgen Sachsen, Siebenbürgen-Sachsen?
2) The Banat Swabians (called collectively in German: Banater Schwaben) may probably call their new homeland Schwäbisches Banat. Is it the only viable, linguistically correct way to name it? What about Banaterschwaben, Banater Schwaben, Banater-Schwaben, Banatschwaben, Banat-Schwaben, Banat Schwaben?
3) The Danube Swabians (called collectively in German: Donauschwaben) too have a new homeland. What could be viable, linguistically correct ways to name it? What about Donauschwaben, Donauschwabenland or Donauisches Schwaben? --195.62.160.60 (talk) 12:52, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I think in all hypothetical cases several choices are possible, the most plausible ones being (IMO) two-word terms of an adjective and a noun (Siebenbürgisches Sachsen, Banater Schwaben, Donauisches Schwaben) or one-word (spaceless) noun-noun compounds (Siebenbürgensachsen, Banatschwaben, Donauschwaben). Adding -land after the (univerbated) plural demonym for the inhabitants is an another possibility (Siebenbürgersachsenland, Banaterschwabenland, Donauschwabenland ). It has the advantage of being less confusing.  --Lambiam 16:04, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Dounauschwaben/Danube Swabia would be a terribly confusing way to describe an area in Eastern Europe, given that the Danube flows through Swabia. —Kusma (talk) 16:18, 7 April 2023 (UTC)