Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2022 October 8

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October 8

Allegory vs allege

Yes they are both the same. Allegory originates from greek While allege originates from latin I see the both dictionary definition on google and it says that allegory is not related to allege at all. I dont think so if allegory has connection with allege due to the prefix is same which is alle in the first 4 letters. 2404:8000:1027:85F6:416C:55FE:AD38:C83A (talk) 05:57, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a question? This is a reference desk so we can only refer you to what the dictionary says. Alley, Allen key and Allegro also have the same four letters; they are not etymologically related. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:18, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Anonymous IP -- I don't want to be rude, but why do you feel qualified to teach linguists their own business, when you apparently know little about the subject? "Allege" comes from a Latin verb adlegare, which combines a preposition ad- "to" and a verb legare (with long "e" vowel), which means "to appoint a delegate, leave a legacy" etc. "Allegory" comes from a Greek word which combines the stem of allos "other" with the stem of the verb agoreuo "to speak", and so originally literally means "other-speaking", i.e. to mean something other than what you're directly saying... AnonMoos (talk) 09:51, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: The etymology of "allege" is nothing like as simple as that according to OED. DuncanHill (talk) 10:01, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I only have access to the 1st edition OED at the moment, but what I see there is not problematic. If a word with another etymology was strongly assimilated in form and meaning to adlegare and/or its French derivatives, then adlegare is pretty much the source of the word as it currently exists in the English language, while the other etymology is purely historical now... AnonMoos (talk) 10:25, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

In short, NO, they are NOT the same.[1][2] <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 10:33, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Also allegedly connected are the alley cats in Allegany, pledging allegiance to an allegro alleluia alleviating their allergies.  --Lambiam 10:44, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I think allegory and allege is similar meaning Allegory means the story has unintended side effect meaning like in the rise of the apes where the great apes are turned against humanity due to the brink of extinction. While allege means that there are many suspection on people like who are responsible for the threatening great apes into extinction. Correct me if i am wrong. 2404:8000:1027:85F6:E5EA:B39:68AC:78B5 (talk) 10:35, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

First, I don't think that "suspection" is a word. Second, there may be a similarity in meaning (but not a close similarity, from what I can see), but this means nothing with respect to whether or not their linguistic etymologies are connected. AnonMoos (talk) 10:52, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

wikt:suspection DuncanHill (talk) 10:55, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Usage label: "obsolete". AnonMoos (talk) 11:02, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Allegory does not mean the story has unintended side effects. Like a metaphor, an allegory represents things by other things. While metaphors are mostly confined to a single phrase or at most a few paragraphs, and allegory tells a story, often one with a moral, in which case another term for such a story is parable, like the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. A well known allegory is Plato's Allegory of the Cave. The prisoners in the cave represent people in general. The shadows on the wall represent flawed human perception. The story involves no side effects of any kind.  --Lambiam 11:01, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Allergy is a common side effect.Itsmejudith (talk)

Sorry i dont know that im indonesian mother tongue user so that i use english as a foreign language. Okay its wrong for me. Then the word allegory and allege are implausible similar. Allege means who are committted this atrocity while the allegory is about a story that has the unknown people who are unaware for this act. Correct me if i am wrong. 2404:8000:1027:85F6:D56D:128F:6D6:351D (talk) 15:00, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

The similarity between the spellings of these two words is a coincidence. Their meanings are not similar. To allege means to state that something is the case. When we read that a woman alleged Herschel Walker paid for her abortion,^[3] it means that she stated he paid for her abortion. No atrocity is involved. Alegori adalah cerita yang dipakai sebagai lambang (ibarat atau kias) perikehidupan manusia yang sebenarnya untuk mendidik (terutama moral) atau menerangkan sesuatu (gagasan, cita-cita, atau nilai kehidupan, seperti kebijakan, kesetiaan, dan kejujuran). The fictional people in a story that serves as an allegory are usually not portrayed as being aware of the fact that they are fictional, but this is not an aspect of the meaning of the term allegory.  --Lambiam 01:02, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

The OP may be interested in the linguistic concept of False friends. Allege and allegory are perhaps etymological examples of this; words that appear to have common history and meaning, but do not. Some more examples from English: the military terms Marshal (as in Field Marshal and Martial (as in martial law) have the same pronunciation and are both used in similar concepts, but are etymologically unrelated. Marshal comes from Proto-Germanic words meaning horse servant. Martial comes from Latin meaning of Mars, the god of war. Or the word "corporal" meaning "military rank" and "corporal" meaning "of the body" (as in corporal punishment). Despite being identical spelling and pronunciation, their etymologies are different. The rank comes from the Italian "caporale" from Latin "caput" meaning "head" (c.f. Captain, decapitate, etc.), while the latter word comes from a different latin word, corpus meaning body. See [4]. The spelling and pronunciation and meaning of words are not always obviously etymologically connected in ways you think. See also folk etymology and etymological fallacy. --Jayron32 12:12, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

"To go from strength to strength"

I'm trying to wrap my head around this idiom. It appears in Psalm 84:7, and I've heard it used in conversation before. I understand it means to grow ever stronger, but its usage and the reasoning behind the idiom meaning what it means continues to elude me. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 07:00, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

An idiom, by definition, is not to be taken literally, so you cannot apply reasoning to it. Many idioms make no sense at all if taken literally. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:22, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

The OED says "After Hebrew mēḥayil ’el-ḥāyil (Psalm 84:7, compare quot. 1535); compare the corresponding passages in Hellenistic Greek ἐκ δυνάμεως εἰς δύναμιν (Septuagint) and post-classical Latin de fortitudine in fortitudinem (Hebraic Psalter; also de virtute in virtutem (Roman Psalter, Gallican Psalter))". The 1535 quotation referred to is Psalms lxxxiv. 7 in the Coverdale Bible, "They go from strength to strength". DuncanHill (talk) 08:49, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

In Hebrew script: מֵחַ֣יִל אֶל־חָ֑יִל‎. For the rather broad sense of חַ֣יִל‎ (ḥayil), see here. I think the translation "they proceed from virtue to virtue" is defensible.  --Lambiam 11:20, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

69.174.144.79 -- Biblical Hebrew loves the cognate accusative construction, and this may be indirectly related. AnonMoos (talk) 09:55, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Ah. This is sort of what I was getting at. The construction "to go from X to X" as meaning "making X increase" is what's throwing me. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 08:31, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Rarity of PIE initial b

Look at the sentence in the P article talking about Proto-Indo-European initial b. Also check out the link the word rare points out to. Does English have lots of words coming from Proto-Indo-European initial b?? (Somebody put citation needed templates in that article, and I would like to know if there's any evidence that it's false.) Georgia guy (talk) 11:42, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Wiktionary lists exactly one PIE root with an initial /b/: bak-, with a possible but uncertain descencent pail. However, Wiktionary writes: "Various points suggest a post-Indo-European borrowing from an unknown source: ● The phoneme *b, which is rare and of somewhat doubtful status. ● ..." For a citable source, look here Section 3.4, pp. 50ff.  --Lambiam 12:13, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Presumably, peg is derived from the same root, without the -il-suffix. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:38, 8 October 2022 (UTC)