Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 May 20
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May 20
edit"May Day" as a help call
editRelated to the previous question about "May Day", is it so that "May Day" is used as a help call because it sounds similar to "M'aidez" (literally "Help me" in French), or is there another etymology? JIP | Talk 02:21, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
- OED says:
- Origin: A borrowing from French. Etymons: French m'aidez, m'aider.
- Etymology: < French m'aidez or m'aider ‘help me!’ (the latter being either the imperative infinitive or short for venez m'aider ‘come and help me!’; < me , first person direct object pronoun + aider)
- DuncanHill (talk) 02:34, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
- And gives the first citation "1923 Times 2 Feb. 7/4 Owing to the difficulty of distinguishing the letter ‘S’ by telephone, the international distress signal ‘S.O.S.’ will give place to the words ‘May-day’, the phonetic equivalent of ‘M'aidez’, the French for ‘Help me’". DuncanHill (talk) 02:36, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you! JIP | Talk 02:37, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
From what I understand, "M'aidez" or "M'aider" can occur in French as part of a longer sentence, but neither one commonly occurs as a stand-alone short sentence meaning "Help me!" (in that usage, "Aidez-moi!" would be more likely). AnonMoos (talk) 06:31, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
- It is easy to find early sources (like the 1923 Times article) that explain mayday as the French pronunciation of the expression m'aider. I did not see comparably early sources explaining the choice of the call m'aider as a shortening of venez m'aider. The earliest I spotted was in a 1980 book.[1] --Lambiam 08:30, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
- Checking Newspapers.com (pay site, not comprehensive), that explanation about "M'aidez" first turns up in February of 1923 in The Guardian in London, and is quickly picked up in many newspapers in America. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:40, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
- But what about venez m'aider with an ⟨r⟩? While the combination m'aidez does occur in French, it cannot be a stand-alone phrase and does not mean a plea of "help me". --Lambiam 23:31, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
- Which is why EO does not guarantee that's the true origin.[2] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:01, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- But my question is, specifically, what is the origin of the repeated claim that a word VENEZ was omitted? This word is not mentioned in the 1923 sources. Did the OED fabricate this explanation? It is just one of many things that could be put in front of m'aider; for example, j'apprécierais vraiment si vous pouviez m'aider – although this might not evoke quite the same sense of urgency. --Lambiam 01:43, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- I never heard the venez m'aider explanation, so I can't answer that literal question. But the whole discussion seems a little overwrought to me. Apparently this Mockford fellow had to come up with a word, and he came up with one. Maybe he was a B− French student, or whatever the equivalent of B− is in the English system. Or maybe he understood just fine that it wasn't good French, but that wasn't his most important consideration at the moment. --Trovatore (talk) 02:09, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- It seems some people would rather die than use poor French. DuncanHill (talk) 02:17, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- I never heard the venez m'aider explanation, so I can't answer that literal question. But the whole discussion seems a little overwrought to me. Apparently this Mockford fellow had to come up with a word, and he came up with one. Maybe he was a B− French student, or whatever the equivalent of B− is in the English system. Or maybe he understood just fine that it wasn't good French, but that wasn't his most important consideration at the moment. --Trovatore (talk) 02:09, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- But my question is, specifically, what is the origin of the repeated claim that a word VENEZ was omitted? This word is not mentioned in the 1923 sources. Did the OED fabricate this explanation? It is just one of many things that could be put in front of m'aider; for example, j'apprécierais vraiment si vous pouviez m'aider – although this might not evoke quite the same sense of urgency. --Lambiam 01:43, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- Which is why EO does not guarantee that's the true origin.[2] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:01, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- But what about venez m'aider with an ⟨r⟩? While the combination m'aidez does occur in French, it cannot be a stand-alone phrase and does not mean a plea of "help me". --Lambiam 23:31, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
- Checking Newspapers.com (pay site, not comprehensive), that explanation about "M'aidez" first turns up in February of 1923 in The Guardian in London, and is quickly picked up in many newspapers in America. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:40, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
- We (of course) have an article: Mayday. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:50, 20 May 2021 (UTC)