Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 May 12

Language desk
< May 11	<< Apr | May | Jun >>	May 13 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 12

The s in opposite

Dictionaries say the s in the word opposite has a z sound, but in practice it has an s sound. Why?? Georgia guy (talk) 01:27, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I've always heard it as a z sound. Maybe in the south it's more like an s? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:04, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I certainly pronounce it with an unvoiced /s/; it would strike me as unusual to hear it with a voiced /z/, though when I say it enough times in my head I can sort of believe that there are people who say it that way. My speech has some Southern influence (my mom was from the South) but I never noticed that consonant as being distinctive in that way. --Trovatore (talk) 02:27, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

The Wiktionary entry has both pronunciations for both American and British speech, with unvoiced first for American and voiced first for British. --Trovatore (talk) 02:32, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Google Video just the word "opposite" and see how it gets pronounced. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

It came to my attention a while back that the Z sound of the first S in "houses" seems to be in the process of changing to an S sound. If you watch a TV show where older and younger speakers both use the word, you're likely to hear "howzez" (as I say it) from people my age but "howcez" from people under, I dunno, maybe about 45. I wonder if the same thing may be happening to "opposite", which I also say with a Z sound. --184.147.181.129 (talk) 06:12, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I first heard "s" instead of "z" in "houses" decades ago - by a southerner. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:55, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Southerner here. About to turn 47. "Houses" with an S sound means "multiple homes". "Houses" with a Z sound means "contains". And, yes, I say "opposite" with an S sound.--Khajidha (talk) 10:00, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

To clarify, I was talking only about the noun. --184.147.181.129 (talk) 06:33, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

That's actually fairly standard English grammar for noun/verb pairs to have some sort of variation. The specific distinctions often vary, but there is usually some pronunciation difference (i.e. PROduce (noun meaning vegetables and fruit) and proDUCE (meaning to make)) --Jayron32 13:09, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

• It can have either sound depending on dialect. S and Z are frequently in free variation due to the fact that the one is a voiced version of the other. In many dialects, the environment of a letter can affect how it is pronounced; "s" sounds can take on voicing when surrounded by other voiced sounds, such as vowels. There really isn't a hard distinction EXCEPT when a minimal pair would produce confusion, for example "bussing" and "buzzing" are never pronounced similarly due to the likely confusion. However, in words like "opposite", which has a similar "s between two vowels" construction, you'll find a WIDE variety of realizations. Some people will always use the unvoiced "s", some will use a voiced "z", some will use either interchangeably. This is really a question of the difference between phonemics and phonetics. Dictionaries print the phonemic representation of a pronunciation, which is how speakers of the language will conceptualize the sounds. Actual speakers will use a variety of phonetic realizations of those conceptual sounds, which is to say how the sounds are physically produced will vary widely, and dictionaries don't attempt to capture every possible phonetic realization, because within a dialect these things are often systematic; i.e. if you voice the "s" in "opposite" you're likely to do so in just about any word that uses "s" in a similar environment, where as if you don't voice your "s" there, you'll likely also leave it unvoiced in similar environments. Rather than try to capture the variation, we all just recognize that sound as "'s', but whatever 's' means in your particular dialect". You see this in words like "butter", where the middle sound is phonemically a "t", but where different dialects will use different phonetic ways to say that "T", including a variety of voiced and unvoiced stops, flaps, etc. --Jayron32 13:04, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I've never heard any Western journalist or newsreader say Benjamin Netanyahu's surname without a glottal stop where the t is (Ne'n-yahu). I feel fairly safe in asserting that he has never said his own name that way. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:58, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Jack, the BBC can usually manage the "t". Such reliable chaps. Alansplodge (talk) 22:25, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Indeed. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:24, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Khajidha -- the voiceless / voiced alternation between "house" (singular noun) and "to house" (verb) is parallel to that seen in "strife" vs. "to strive" and "wreath" vs. to "wreathe". It goes back to Old English or early Middle English allophonic alternations (however, [s] and [z] are not allophonic in current English). AnonMoos (talk) 22:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I say the singular noun with an /s/, but the plural with two /z/'s: /ˈhaʊzɪz/. That is not an issue of the somewhat regular alternation between nouns and verbs. It is truly irregular; a grumble of grouse are /ˈɡɹaʊsɪz/, as one would expect.  --Lambiam 00:59, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I would never say "houses" with an unvoiced s. I would probably assume you were some sort of foreigner if you did. OED says "Plural houses Brit. /ˈhaʊzᵻz/, U.S. /ˈhaʊzəz/. DuncanHill (talk) 01:09, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Maybe a regional thing; it's always a houses with a "z" here in London. Alansplodge (talk) 10:31, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Houses with an "s" seems to be usual in Scotland (maybe only certain regions). I was a bit surprised when I first heard this, having been used to hearing it with a "Z" sound in southern England. rossb (talk) 20:09, 15 May 2021 (UTC)