Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 August 10

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August 10

Plural of Portuguese man o war (jellyfish-like creatures)?

Is it "men o war", "man o wars" or "man o war"? I have seen all three.

Wiktionary:man-of-war says: "man-of-war (plural men-of-war)". Like gins-and-tonic. Alansplodge (talk) 00:04, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, not that much like it. --184.144.99.72 (talk) 06:42, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

We live and learn. Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Most people would settle for G&Ts, I think. And yes, they are in fact not jellies but siphonophorae. Although they're called men-of-war, they actually look like caravels... (especially after a few G&Ts).Martinevans123 (talk) 11:18, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps because it fights back? Alansplodge (talk) 11:55, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Of course they should be renamed gender-neutral persons-of-war. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:50, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

"War" is passé; how about gender-neutral persons of overseas contingency operations. --107.15.157.44 (talk) 16:37, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I think you'll find it's gender-neutral Iberian peninsular persons of overseas contingency operations. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:39, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

"Overseas" is passé. Now it's "off-shore". And I think it would be Iberian-peninsular gender-neutral persons of off-shore contingency operations. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:09, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Dialog Doubt in Runaway Jury

Jury consultant Rankin Fitch sends Doyle to get a lead on Marlee, who is demanding him money for a verdict:

• Rankin Fitch: Doyle, where the hell are you?
• Doyle: Headed for exit 245. Some backwater town in central Indiana, but I think I got a good lead on the girl.
• Rankin Fitch: Well, move it along. The judge is about to give this thing to the jury. Shit.

What does "this thing" refer to? Rizosome (talk) 06:30, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I haven't seen this film, but from the context, Jury instructions is a possibility. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:35, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I suggest that it simply means the case: the case is going to go to the jury. --184.144.99.72 (talk)

Somewhat more explicitly, in the first phase of a jury trial the two parties argue their case and introduce evidence in the court room, in the presence of the jury, which in this phase has no other role than to observe. At some point, the parties "rest their case", meaning that their presentations have concluded. After that, they cannot present any further arguments or evidence for consideration by the jury. Then the trial proceeds to a new phase; it is now up to the jury to find a judgement. This jury phase starts with the judge giving instructions to the jury.  --Lambiam 09:11, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Italian slur?

There is a name I guess I better not write here, a diminutive of Federico that was the shortened given name of Michael Corleone's not-so-bright younger brother in The Godfather. I'm told that this name is now considered a nasty slur among Italian Americans. Is that true? I heard it applied to a certain New York TV personality, with the response that it was comparable to "the N word". That sounded like it had to be an overstatement to me, but I live on the west coast now, where there is less linguistic influence of this type than there is in New York. Thanks. 2602:24A:DE47:BA60:8FCB:EA4E:7FBD:4814 (talk) 18:20, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I think Fredo Corleone is older than Michael, which is the youngest of Vito’s sons. Also note that the short name Fredo is Italo-American, and does not exist in Italy —-it’s the result of a funny italianisation of the English form Fred by adding the masculine suffix -o. pma 21:14, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

You may find this interesting:[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:49, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Wiktionary has "(sometimes offensive) A black sheep, a disliked outcast in a family or other group", while noting, "Possibly offensive to those of Italian descent". Two of the uses given are "Teddy has been called the Fredo of the Kennedy family, and so he was" and "The entire Bush family is a crime syndicate that puts the Corleones to shame (with George W. Bush playing the role of Fredo)." I think this is as offensive (or not) to Irish and Anglo-Saxon Americans as it is to Italian Americans. It only becomes offensive when someone is labelled with the monicker as an ethnic slur, applied because of their descent.  --Lambiam 19:07, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

If it actually did originate with The Godfather, then presumably it wasn't a slur before then, but took on the "slur" of equivalency. Kind of like with infamous individuals such as Benedict Arnold or Quisling. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Right Said Freddo? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:24, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Bugs' BBC article is in depth and informative. Of course the transformation to a slur would have resulted from the movie but that still counts. It's maybe similar to the time someone in the Trump administration got called a "Sith lord". 2602:24A:DE47:BA60:8FCB:EA4E:7FBD:4814 (talk) 20:24, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that was offensive to all Siths.  --Lambiam 08:48, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Not to be confused with a Freddo. Princess Persnickety (talk) 08:10, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Is it crunchy? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:30, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

They're chocolatey, delicious and always lead to cries of "they were only 10p in my day!" Princess Persnickety (talk) 12:03, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

"They were only 4d in my day!" (... not really, as 1973 was 2 years after Decimal Day, but never mind). Martinevans123 (talk) 17:44, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I never heard of them before now, but I assume they influenced the chocolate frogs in the Harry Potter novels... AnonMoos (talk) 23:56, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I thought the Harry Potter bit was a nod to the Crunchy Frog sketch from Monty Python's Flying Circus... --Jayron32 22:26, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Curiously, we have a Chocolate Frog disamiguation page. Alansplodge (talk) 09:44, 14 August 2021 (UTC)