Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 September 24
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September 24
editLearning English Pronunciation
editThe following discussion is marked as answered. If you have a new comment, place it just below the box.
I'm a beginner with spoken English (British).
- Which are the best online resources to learn English pronunciation freely?
- Is it possible to know the pronunciation of an English word, that seen for the first time, without being a native speaker?
--Joseph 08:41, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- The best online source of audio files for pronunciation of English words, as far as I know, is wikt:Category:English terms with audio links.
- It is not possible to know the pronunciation of an English word that you're seeing for the first time, without being a native speaker. Even if you were a native speaker, you still could not be sure of the pronunciation of a word that you're seeing for the first time. You need to hear the word pronounced, or see a description of the pronunciation (usually in IPA). —Stephen (talk) 10:57, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- We have an article: English phonology that gives some general principles, but it would probably not be suitable for a beginner who had never met IPA before. As Stephen says above, English has so many differences in pronunciation of the same group of letters that even native speakers sometimes get it wrong, and speakers in different regions sometimes disagree on what is the correct pronunciation. Dbfirs 11:28, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- I tutor English, and my most successful results come from students watching English-language movies that they have already seen dubbed in their native language, but shown on computer programs like VLC Player at slow speed and with the closed captioning on for the first view. The slow speed allows much easier comprehension, and the captioning should be turned off for the third viewing. It is also helpful to learn songs and poems by heart, such as Shelley's Ozymandias and Yeats' Second Coming. Richard III with Ian McKellan is also a great source if played at slow speed with closed captioning. The language is archaic, but the pronunciation is divine. μηδείς (talk) 18:41, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- How many syllables do you think "Ozymandias" has? InedibleHulk (talk) 01:29, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
- I count five, but I think it has 13? μηδείς (talk) 16:11, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
- How many syllables do you think "Ozymandias" has? InedibleHulk (talk) 01:29, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
- I tutor English, and my most successful results come from students watching English-language movies that they have already seen dubbed in their native language, but shown on computer programs like VLC Player at slow speed and with the closed captioning on for the first view. The slow speed allows much easier comprehension, and the captioning should be turned off for the third viewing. It is also helpful to learn songs and poems by heart, such as Shelley's Ozymandias and Yeats' Second Coming. Richard III with Ian McKellan is also a great source if played at slow speed with closed captioning. The language is archaic, but the pronunciation is divine. μηδείς (talk) 18:41, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- OP, you need to choose whether you want to learn British English, Australian English, Canadian English, or American English pronunciation. Those are the main branches of English. Standard American English may be more useful than the other varieties and regional American dialects, given that the United States is a global superpower. Canadian English sounds like Standard American English, so that will work too. British and Australian English both sound like the New England accent (part of the New England region in the USA).
- For the pronunciation of words, it is difficult to know how a word is pronounced without hearing it first. The first reason is that English has too many silent letters. On Between the Lions (Children's TV Show), there is a song about "when two vowels go walkin' / the first one does the talkin' " and musically explains why boat has a long o sound while the a is silent. Then, there is the silent e. The second reason why English words are difficult to pronounce for native English speakers is the stress placed on a syllable. Somehow, total is stressed on the first syllable, but totalitarian is stressed on the second syllable. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 19:12, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- Actually, totalitarian is stressed on the fourth syllable, the "tar" part. I would also disagree with the way you've compared the various regional accents. But your main point is valid - that the OP needs to decide "which" English he wants to learn. He appears to be in India, so "Indian English" might be the place to start. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:17, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- Regardless of whether the stress is on the first, second, second+fourth, or fourth only, total in totalitarian is not pronounced the same way as total itself. The comparisons above are based what they sound like to my ear, which may be totally different than yours. So, the comparisons are still valid on a subjective level. Finally, India was formerly a colony of Great Britain. Given the immense size of the British empire, which explains why Europeans learn British English, it may be more useful to learn British English. Besides, I think that's what taught in India, since many Indians around me sound British. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 19:53, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- Can you find a youtube or something where someone is saying that word the way you say you hear it? As regards Indian English, I agree that British English should be sufficient. Indian English (to my semi-limited experience) is really just British English with a few idiomatic quirks Indians have invented. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:48, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- That's not exactly (or even close to) how our article Indian English puts it, but whatever ... -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:24, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- Also, note that multi-syllabic words in English often stress the next-to-last or another near-to-last syllable. For example, U-tile vs. U-til-ize vs. u-TIL-it-y vs. u-til-i-ZA-tion. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:00, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- Can you find a youtube or something where someone is saying that word the way you say you hear it? As regards Indian English, I agree that British English should be sufficient. Indian English (to my semi-limited experience) is really just British English with a few idiomatic quirks Indians have invented. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:48, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- Regardless of whether the stress is on the first, second, second+fourth, or fourth only, total in totalitarian is not pronounced the same way as total itself. The comparisons above are based what they sound like to my ear, which may be totally different than yours. So, the comparisons are still valid on a subjective level. Finally, India was formerly a colony of Great Britain. Given the immense size of the British empire, which explains why Europeans learn British English, it may be more useful to learn British English. Besides, I think that's what taught in India, since many Indians around me sound British. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 19:53, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- Actually, totalitarian is stressed on the fourth syllable, the "tar" part. I would also disagree with the way you've compared the various regional accents. But your main point is valid - that the OP needs to decide "which" English he wants to learn. He appears to be in India, so "Indian English" might be the place to start. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:17, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- 991joseph, we must begin with your second question.
- "Is it possible to know the pronunciation of an English word, that seen for the first time, without being a native speaker?" No, you can't be 100% certain by looking at the English spelling. If you already know many words, then you can often guess the right pronunciation. But that does not help learners! :-) However, it is also possible to write English words in a different way. This is called IPA (International Pronunciation Alphabet). If you look up words in a good learners' dictionary, it will use IPA so that you know the pronunciation. So first you must learn IPA, then you can learn each word and phrase.
- "Which are the best online resources to learn English pronunciation freely?" If you have a mobile phone or tablet, then the best way to learn the IPA sounds is Macmillan's Sounds app and it's free! I have used it with many students. It will take you a few weeks to learn the sounds. Then you need to check each word or phrase. I highly recommend the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. It's the no.2 best-selling book in English (after the Bible) because it's very, very helpful for people learning English. You can use it online for free and it includes several major types of English (including American English and British English). As you learn the IPA and new words, you should try to connect with other English speakers. If other people understand you, then your pronunciation is good enough. If they don't understand you, then you know that you need to improve. It's best to speak to other people in your area. You appear to be in India, so that should be easy. Matt's talk 21:08, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- Either British or NA English is respected world wide. For the sake of upward mobility, adopting one of those standards is most common world-wide. μηδείς (talk) 22:38, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks, everyone. --Joseph 04:20, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
- It's not silent letters which are the bugbear but irregularities. Hence George Bernard Shaw's famous observation that ghoti ("gh" as in "rough", "o" as in "women", and "ti" as in "nation") is actually pronounced FISH. In English the default stress is on the penult. If it's not there the next most likely place for it is the antepenult. 92.8.220.234 (talk) 10:17, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
- 92.8.220.23 -- We have an article on ghoti, but it's quite silly for several reasons, such as that it's UGH (not "gh") which is sometimes pronounced as [f], but only after the letters "a" and "o", while "ti" also can only be pronounced [ʃ] when before a vowel letter... AnonMoos (talk) 18:33, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure there's universal agreement on the pronunciation of "ugh" but words like "rough" and "tough" and "enough" fit the bill. Yes, the rules for "gh" as "f" technically nullify Shaw's joke, but that might have been part of the point he was making. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:02, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- That's what I was referring to -- in the word "tough", the vowel letter "o" means [ʌ] as in "son"; in the word "cough", the vowel letter "o" has a normal "short" pronunciation; while in "laugh" the vowel letter "a" also has a normal "short" pronunciation. So according to the most reasonable analysis, it's the trigraph "ugh" which means [f] in those words (but only after the letters "a" and "o", of course), while the sequence "gh" by itself NEVER means [f]... AnonMoos (talk) 02:26, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
- IPA is international phonetic alphabet, not pronunciation alphabet. μηδείς (talk) 16:11, 25 September 2017 (UTC)