Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 August 22

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August 22

Origin of "the cucumbers of peace"

What is the origin of the phrase "cucumbers of peace"? Recently, I've read Andrew Gordon, The Rules of the Game. Jutland and British Naval Command, London 1996, in which the author writes about the Dewar brothers, Alfred and Kenneth, who were British naval officers during and after World War I and who considered themselves to be the Royal Navy's leading intellectuals of their time. On page 685, Gordon writes:

"Alfred [Dewar] penned a strange booklet entitled The Significance of Naval History [published in 1916], in which he alleged that public men 'love the cucumbers of peace'. No doubt he had a weighty point in mind."

I'm German, and I didn't know this phrase before, but Gordon is British, and he seems to be amused by it, too. But where does this phrase originate from? Maybe some Persian or Indian text that Dewar might have read? (As far as I know, Oriental philosophy was quite populare with some of the self-styled intellectuals of this time.) Is this phrase common in any other langugage? It also may have originated from a specific, probably sub-perfect English translation of a foreign language text. So, can anyone find some hints on the origin of this phrase? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.34.113 (talk) 11:26, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• Sounds like an obvious play on the words "(bitter) fruits of war". Cucumbers are bland, inoffensive, and very expensive to produce, with almost no nutritional value, but very popular with ladies at tea. Compare also the "spoils of war". μηδείς (talk) 16:48, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• Expensive ? They are 2 for a dollar here. StuRat (talk) 20:46, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, I was theorizing (wildly unfounded in any knowledge of this culture) that there might by some phrase about the "sweet fruits of peace", like for example: "During the reign of the wise shah, the sweet squashes of peace were growing in the lands." as a common phrase in a Persian text. Add a bad translator, missinterpreting it for cucumbers, and you get "cucumbers of peace" in an obscure late 19th century English version of an ancient Persian text — or anything like this.--85.179.34.113 (talk) 19:53, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

• The individual in question, no doubt a member of the British peerage, was inordinately fond of cucumbers, and was sorely unhappy about subsisting on naval rations alone, when called off to war. Sławomir Biały (talk)

Most likely a typo for "encumbrances of peace". Encumbrances means burdens, or hindrances [to]. Akld guy (talk) 22:10, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

ENCUMBRANCE > CUCUMBER? We've got a whole three letters in common. And what exactly, would the encumbrances of peace be? Gout and the need to hire a chartered accountant? μηδείς (talk) 04:06, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I see 4 consecutive letters in common ("CUMB"), and make that 6 ("CUMBER"), if we go back to the base word ("ENCUMBER"). StuRat (talk) 20:50, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Typos can consist of entire words. Try it in the sentence: "...in which he alleged that public men 'love the hindrances to peace'." He might be saying that men in public life love using tactics that create disharmony and division in order to divide and prevail over their enemies. Akld guy (talk) 05:52, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Incorrect substitutions of whole words are common enough that we have names for such a linguistic error. See mondegreen, eggcorn, malapropism, etc. --Jayron32 11:18, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

None of those three really fit, Jayron. No one without a hearing encumbrance who hears CUcumber recited in a song or poem mistakes it for enCUMbrance. No uninsane person thinks the word encumbrance is derived from cucumber: "Given the bumber crop, many farmers were encumbered to death when their carts tipped, crushing them under an insupportable mass of crunchy squashes." And no one confuses the two words' meanings the way they do affect and effect. I think the author was simply making a play on words, and rather than ruin the joke he didn't explain, "That is, politicians are pantywaists who are too concerned with genteel pleasures to concern themselves with unpleasant realities."

Of course there is the counterexample of Posh Nosh, where the paella in episode 12 is lightly encumbered with sliced Mexicano pepinos that have been serenaded overnight in the moist dreams of Mexican schoolboys. μηδείς (talk) 04:25, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I never said they fit. I said they were about incorrect substitutions of whole words. Please keep up. --Jayron32 11:44, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Then maybe you should have said a nonce, or a hapax apophthegm? μηδείς (talk) 01:59, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Could it be an OCR issue? That produces weird results sometimes, such as the legendary Beastorn, which was actually Byzantine. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:55, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

It might be clearer in context. But Worldcat only records a copy of Dewar's book in the British Library. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:10, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Is it possible that Alfred Dewar was confusing it with being a symbol of resurrection and redemption as shown in The Annunciation, with Saint Emidius? CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 10:42, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

The apple, in the picture associated to the fall of man, could be read a nine (9). There certainly might be something. --Askedonty (talk) 20:02, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

 Is it possible that it's a backhanded allusion to the dogs of war, which doesn't make a lot of obvious sense either? See also Steve Martin's essay "Wittgenstein's Banana". --Trovatore (talk) 21:24, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

See The dogs of war (phrase) and Dogs in warfare. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:07, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, of course, I didn't mean to imply that the phrase had no intelligible origin. But to those accustomed to happy friendly family dogs, it falls oddly enough on the ear that I can imagine someone playing MadLibs with it. --Trovatore (talk) 21:21, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

In the Cauchy chapter of E.T. Bell's "Men of Mathematics", he writes of "one of those charming love stories, insipid as stewed cucumbers, concocted for French schoolgirls under sixteen, in which the hero and heroine are as pure and sexless as God's holy angels" -- AnonMoos (talk) 10:28, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

French lyrics (paroles de chanson) of three French songs

I wonder where I can get the lyrics, in French, of the following songs: La Paloma Adieu, Santa Maria De La Mer, and Non Je Ne Regrette Rien sung by Mireille Mathieu Thanks, - --AboutFace 22 (talk) 11:28, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

For Édith Piaf's song: Non, je ne regrette rien, then La Paloma for that one. Grüße vom Sänger ♫ ^(talk) 11:35, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

The third one may be "Les Saintes Marie de la Mer", about a famous gypsy pilgrimage site in Provence. This could be the one [1]. I can't certify 100% as it's a lot less famous then the other two songs mentioned by the OP. --Xuxl (talk) 13:10, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

A treasure trove! Many thanks! --AboutFace 22 (talk) 14:28, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

What does [ד'] Error: {{Lang}}: missing language tag (help) stand for?

A few epitaphs, most notably including a trilingual memorial at Lodz Jewish Cemetery, have the yizkor formula starting as "[יזכור ד' את נשמת/נשמות...] Error: {{Lang}}: missing language tag (help)", instead of the more usual "[יזכור אלוהים/אלוקים/ה' [את] נשמת/נשמות...] Error: {{Lang}}: missing language tag (help)" What does this [ד'] Error: {{Lang}}: missing language tag (help) stand for? Names of God in Judaism include none starting with a [ד] Error: {{Lang}}: missing language tag (help). --92.27.207.68 (talk) 20:32, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi, a Hebrew speaker is here. It means GOD, and not only in epitaphs but also in general. Actually, when 'ה means GOD, then some religious Jewish people tend (in everyday life) to replace the ה by ד, for some religious reason (which is the "sanctity" ascribed to the letter ה when standing in the context of the godlike divine meaning, while they don't want this contextually "sacred" letter to be used in "simple" everyday life, including in epitaphs for the memorial of the dead. BTW, for a similar reason, no religious Jewish person uses the tetragrammation either). The letter ד was chosen instead, because it's a bit similar to ה - except for the ה's "broken left leg", and also because it's immediately followed by ה in the Hebrew alphabetical order (not like the ר which is very far away from the ה in that order). 185.27.105.144 (talk) 07:04, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I have now found a mention of this in Jehovah#Development, and added a sentence about it into HaShem. If you happen to have any references for the reasons why ה is avoided and/or why ד is chosen as the replacement, please feel free to extend the article; I couldn't find much with a cursory google search. --92.27.207.68 (talk) 08:14, 23 August 2017 (UTC)