Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 August 18

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August 18

Which one has a negative connotation - heathen or pagan?

Which one should not be used in polite company? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 13:34, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Depends on who you're referring to and what context.

If you mean "non-Christians," it's usually best to just say "non-Christians." "Pagan" might be used to mean "anyone outside the Abrahamic religions" when talking about specific parts of Europe in specific periods of time (e.g. 2nd century Rome or 9th century Scandinavia). However, Gnosticism complicates that because it doesn't just sit on the fence, it humps it until it breaks. Zoroastrianism, despite not being Abrahamic but because it is monotheistic, influenced the Abrahamic religions, and was "alien" to the Greeks and Romans, might be excluded in certain contexts (e.g. the Roman empire before Constantine) but included in other contexts (e.g. 12th century Persia or 15th century Northern India).

But for the modern era, Pagan can be used neutrally or positively to refer to a number of modern adherents of religions modeled (with varying degrees of accuracy) after historic non-Christian European religions (e.g Wicca). Heathen may be used neutrally or positively to refer to a specifically Germanic type of paganism (e.g. Ásatrú). Ian.thomson (talk) 13:59, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

The "polite company" part does not figure into it, as neither word is an obscenity. Although it's best to be careful who are calling by those labels. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:20, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Context matters. It depends on who is speaking, with whom they are speaking, about what they are speaking, and the tone of voice they are speaking with. The term becomes an insult when used by someone who intends it to be insulting. --Jayron32 14:31, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Both can be used pejoratively (and not just as pejoratives for non-Christians - see definitions here and here. Anecdotally, I think heathen is more often used pejoratively. I suspect that this was why the UK 2001 census incorrectly classed self-declared heathens as atheists (presumably assuming it was just joking or self-depreciation by non-believers). I also remember once reading in an older dictionary (I think it might have been a 197x Chambers 20th Century Dictionary) that a heathen was "a pagan, especially a rude or uncivilized one". (I think it meant in the sense of primitive/barbarian, rather than crude and abusive). Today's featured article is about Heathenry (new religious movement) so that's probably worth looking at (assuming that wasn't what inspired this question). -- 15:07, 18 August 2017‎ Wardog

140.254.70.33 -- In the 19th century and early 20th century, both words could have negative connotations, but the negative connotations of "pagan" mainly centered around rural superstition and backwards ignorance, while "heathen" could be used as an generalized insult implying a lack of adherence to civilized norms. As the replies above indicate, it's doubtful whether the earlier negative connotations would be widely-understood now... AnonMoos (talk) 15:18, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

"Heathen" seems more insulting than "pagan", here in Detroit. StuRat (talk) 15:25, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

"Pagan and heathen are primarily the same in meaning; but pagan is sometimes distinctively applied to those nations that, although worshiping false gods, are more cultivated, as the Greeks and Romans, and heathen to uncivilized idolaters, as the tribes of Africa. A Mohammedan is not counted a pagan much less a heathen." [Century Dictionary, 1902] Wymspen (talk) 16:29, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

LOL, so much for neutrality when they declare them to be "worshiping false gods" as opposed to "worshiping gods other than the Christian god". StuRat (talk) 16:35, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Maybe you weren't aware that scientists have proven the existence of the Christian God? :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:19, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Uh oh, here we go. Akld guy (talk) 03:51, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Presumably that was a joke, hence the smiley. StuRat (talk) 20:55, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

That's your presumption. Looks like sarcasm to me. And I'm not a Christian. Akld guy (talk) 23:52, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

As a sarcastic Catholic, I say we remove his smile with hot pincers. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:24, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

The use of heathen at all (less so pagan nowadays) implies the speaker's belief that the heathens' gods are false; explicitly saying so doesn't add much. —Tamfang (talk) 23:27, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• The Latinate pagan and the Germanic heathen (c.f., heath) both originally meant from the countryside; lacking the refind manners of the rich and courtly. But whereas you might call a man who eats without utensils, and wipes his face with his sleeve a heathen, you wouldn't call him a pagan. The advent of Christian mission changed that, it spread among the educated city-folk first.

Pagan is usually associated with the non-Judeo-Christian gods of the Semites (Ba'al, Ishtar) and the gods of the Indo-Europeans, those of the Norse, Celtic, Roman, Greek as well as others either related to these historically, or those of other sophisticated ancient peoples like the Etruscans and the Egyptians.

Of course, that's not a hard and fast rule, but you'd probably not have Sedna (mythology) or Amaterasu in mind if you were asked to mention some pagan gods. Likewise, ritualized headhunting is heathen (and not a "false god") not pagan per se. μηδείς (talk) 00:32, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Translation from German wanted

How would you translate the following sentence: "Er steht auf, wenn andere schon lange / längst arbeiten."?--Tuchiel (talk) 14:51, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

According to Google Translate, the literal translation is "He gets up when others have been working long". However, the exact interpretation of "gets up" seems critical. If it means he advances in life or his career, the sentence could be taken to mean "He benefits from the labors of others", which could be taken negatively, as "He exploits others for his own benefit". Reminds me of the comical phrasing: "He gets exhausted from watching others work". StuRat (talk) 15:29, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

"He gets out of bed when others have long been at work.". The google translation is quite decent for once, your interpretation is completely off. --Wrongfilter (talk) 15:37, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

There's still ambiguity there. It could either mean he works on a later schedule, such as second shift, or it could mean he is lazy and shows up late for work. StuRat (talk) 16:37, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

That's not ambiguity, it's just something the German sentence isn't talking about. The linguistic meaning of the sentence is entirely clear. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:43, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I do like Wrongfilter's translation, but one could also imagine a context where "steht auf" means "rises from the table" etc., for example after a lunch break ... Without further context, "gets up" would cover that residual ambiguity. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:40, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

@Wrongfilter: Thanks a lot! What about saying "... when others are long at work [or are at work long]"?--Tuchiel (talk) 16:12, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

User:Wrongfilter's phrase seems better to me. Alansplodge (talk) 16:55, 18 August 2017 (UTC)