Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 September 26

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September 26

estado

In Spanish, does state (noun) and statement mean the same thing?--Jerk of Thrones (talk) 04:11, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Isn't the spanish word for statement "declaración"? I don't see how any of the meanings of the noun "estado" would fit the meaning of "statement".Cfmarenostrum (talk) 09:03, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. To clarify, I was looking at the financial statements of a company based in a Spanish-speaking country and it said "Estados financiales" or something along those lines (I no longer have the document in front of me). That struck me as odd use of the word because I thought estado meant state.--Jerk of Thrones (talk) 09:11, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe that's more like "financial status"? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:45, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it is like financial statement (which interlinks to estados financieros on Spanish WP). One of Real Academia Española's dictionary definitions of "estado" reads "Resumen por partidas generales que resulta de las relaciones hechas al por menor, y que ordinariamente se figura en una hoja de papel. Estado de las rentas del vecindario, del ejército" (meaning #7 of "estado" here). ---Sluzzelin talk 10:35, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

And the equivalent in French is "états financiers" (fr:États_financiers). --Xuxl (talk) 12:11, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

'Taking a backseat to....'

I've just bought a wearable CCTV camera for cycling, and the website said "it takes a backseat to design." What is that supposed to mean? KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 12:57, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

You're quoting the sentence out of context. It actually says "with video quality that takes a backseat to design". This means that the camera sacrifices video quality for its small size and ease of use. --Viennese Waltz 13:07, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

That's what I thought it meant, but at 1080p HD it's pretty high quality. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 13:14, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

That's good, if the quality is good enough for you. Anyway, that's what they're saying. --Viennese Waltz 13:23, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The language question is answered, but I'll add that there are other things aside from resolution that affect video quality. For instance accuracy of color reproduction, ability to capture in low light, the optics of the lens, etc. etc. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:42, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

archaic terms returning to common usage

Are there examples of terms or senses that became archaic, but eventually returned to common usage? --66.190.99.112 (talk) 15:28, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I apologize for being contumelious, but my attempt to excogitate such a list results in a gallimaufry.  —71.20.250.51 (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

My favorite example is "car", which was an archaic or poetic term until it was revived for railway carriages [1]. --Amble (talk) 16:13, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I submit "gender" -- c. 1300 it meant a type or class [2]. By 1800, it was barely used. Around 1950 or so it started to mean the social construct in humans, as described by our article gender. This usage is of course aligned with the previous senses, but used as sort of jargon or term of art when restricted to the sociological notion. By 1980 the newer usage really took off, as seen in this Google Ngram [3].

Here's a thread from on the Straight Dope forum where a very similar question is discussed [4]. I suggest that a combination of Etymology Online and Google Ngram viewer (both linked above) will be useful tools for further research and finding more examples through a guess and check method. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:21, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

From the strait dope link, "avatar" and "concatenate" seem to be supported by Ngram [5]. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe broadcast. It used to be an agricultural term, but was revived in a different context for transmissions of radio and TV programs. Ngrams shows the term in use in the 18th-19th century, dropping out of use in the early 20th, before being revived at about 1920. I would posit that nearly all usage before 1920 was the agricultural term. --Jayron32 16:26, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Nathan Stubblefield was, coincidentally, a farmer and a 19th century radio experimenter, who has been credited with first using the term "broadcasting" to describe sending out wireless signals for all to receive, as opposed to use for point to point communication. Edison (talk) 00:18, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

In what language? Just English or any language? Akerbeltz (talk) 17:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

There was a plague of such revivals in the early 19th century English-speaking world due to the popularity of Sir Walter Scott. In some cases, Scott was not as good an antiquarian as he flattered himself that he was, so some terms acquired new meanings. The most hilarious of these is minion, of course. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

How so? The french term Les Mignons had already established the term as meaning "sycophantic follower". The English term is nearly a direct transliteration. I think you mean Scott's misunderstanding of henchman to mean "minion" whereas the older meaning of henchman was merely a page or squire. --Jayron32 18:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The English-language use of "minion" pretty blatantly meant "male lover [or at least darling] of king or other powerful male noble", and Scott seems to have been blithely unaware of that one. Your explanation of Les Mignons as being mere sycophantic followers seems pretty euphemistic. --Orange Mike | Talk 04:24, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

But were the minions hench? Itsmejudith (talk) 20:15, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

The word "albeit" comes to mind. Not sure it ever became truly archaic, but it's now far more often encountered than was once the case. To some people, it's still so new that they've resorted to making up their own pronunciation - the first syllable spoken like Al (as in Al Jolson), rather than like "all". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:31, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Ngram Viewer seems to support this. Interestingly the revival seem to have started around 1953, the year Fight Fiercely, Harvard was published, but that's probably just coincidence. -- BenRG (talk) 21:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

How about "wireless" ? It originally meant wireless telegraphy using the spark gap to send electromagnetic waves in Morse Code or the like. Now it refers to cell phones. StuRat (talk) 00:38, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Cable & Wireless plc had a name that went from being antique to cutting-edge in a decade. jnestorius^(talk) 10:15, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

• Time magazine's "Timespeak" or "Timese" style of the 20s and 30s included "such pseudo-archaisms as atop, afoul, and awry". Variety and others have also ransacked dictionaries and thesauri. Some of these words have become standard, or at least standard-U.S.-journalese, rather than archaic-poetic-twee. jnestorius^(talk) 10:15, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

'Awesome' is a word that comes to mind. -- Q Chris (talk) 11:42, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

"Awful" used to mean more or less what we mean by "awesome" now, but anyone describing some New Big Thing as "awful" in the old sense would not exactly get their message across. We still talk of "Ivan the Terrible" without thinking of "Ivan the Awful". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:19, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Accent that mixes the r sound and w sound?

On Sesame Street, there is this cute little bear that can't distinguish the r sound and the w sound. In fact, the r sound is pronounced like the w sound. Is this a real accent somewhere? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 20:41, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Children often speak that way. Elmer Fudd is a fake speaker, but led me to a real thing called rhotacism (or wotacism, maybe). InedibleHulk (talk) 21:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

It is found with some adult speakers in England. It is referred to as the r lisp, although I am not sure there is not a better term. It was discussed here a few years back if anyone wants to search the archives. μηδείς (talk) 21:21, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Is this it? Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2009_July_24#Stuttering_and_languages -- Zanimum (talk) 21:24, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

That's not the thread to which I was referring, as I participated in it. It seems to be associated with some upperclass Englishmen and the nobility--Monty Python make fun of it alot. This blog mentions it and calls it weak or gliding /r/.

The one that you recall having participated in was probably this one. There has also been at least one other thread. Deor (talk) 01:44, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The Monty Python note is especially relevant... Sesame writers and cast have created another character who was a thinly veiled tribute, among other things. I can easily imagine David Rudman making use of one of their characterizations. -- Zanimum (talk) 21:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Here are some of those other things. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I've read (probably in Mr Kipling's Army) that officers of one regiment affected r→w in imitation of their Colonel Brabazon (nicknamed Bwab). —Tamfang (talk) 05:38, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

That would be the Colonel Brabazon of the 4th Hussars who Churchill writes about in My Early Life. Not read Mr Kipling's Army but it sounds like an exceedingly good book. DuncanHill (talk) 07:50, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

You beat me with an answer. If anyone else wants to comment, here's a video clip of him talking. -- Zanimum (talk) 21:22, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

It is called R-labialization, and is quite common in some accents of southern UK English. For example Jonathan Ross is famous for having this accent. The actual sound isn't exactly the same as "w". Instead, it is more like a "v" sound, with the upper tooth touching the lower lip, and is a voiced consonant. Bluap (talk) 01:07, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I have this. I've always known it as a form of rhotacism, my upper teeth don't touch my lower lip when I do it (find it hard to imagine saying anything where they would). English, Not at all upper class. Sometimes w's turn into r's too. It's worst when I can see several r's coming up ahead of me in close order. DuncanHill (talk) 07:14, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it's referred to as an articulation disorder nowadays. See this website for example. DuncanHill (talk) 07:19, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

It's fairly common in East London where I grew up, where the pronunciation of the letter "R" is very weak anyway. I went to the same school in Leyton as Jonathan Ross - nobody from the upper classes ever crossed the portals of Leyton County High School for Boys. Even so, it's less of an accent than a "speech defect" (old usage) or "articulation disorder" as Duncan rightly says. Alansplodge (talk) 16:49, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Funny thing: I have it too, and although I never lived in Leyton (or anywhere in London, being raised peripatetically as a British Army brat), my father was born around there and went to the same school as Alansplodge, but doesn't have it. In the British Army it's sufficiently frequent among commissioned officers that a dismissive nickname for them, "Ruperts", is often pronouced "Wuperts."

Another well-known attendee of Leyton County High School for Boys was Frank Muir, who of course exhibited the condition to a marked degree. Something of a pattern emerging, it would seem. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.219.80.169 (talk) 19:51, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

And interestingly but beside the point, another former pupil was Derek Jacobi who although able to pronounce his "Rs" affected a lisp in I Claudius. Alansplodge (talk) 21:03, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Punjabi translation help

Anyone on this board speak Punjabi? One of the candidates for Mayor of Brampton says that another is claiming they are invited to the Brampton Board of Trade's select candidate debate.

I don't read Punjabi, and the article (top article on page 3) isn't copy-able, otherwise I would have thrown it into Google Translate. -- Zanimum (talk) 21:15, 26 September 2014 (UTC)