Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 December 19

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December 19

I'm having Fitz trying to figure out the Ap-propriate action to take.

I'm considering splitting off the given name and surname listings from Fitz, but if I do, it'd leave the article without categories. What's the appropriate category or categories for something like Fitz or ap ("son of")? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:35, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Category:patronymics? --ColinFine (talk) 11:22, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I didn't think that fit, but after reading the main article a bit further, I guess it does. Thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 18:29, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Jocular phonetic alphabet

This is not a serious question, just a bit of fun. I came across a jocular "phonetic alphabet", like the ICAO respelling alphabet but with unhelpful words, such as "aether" and "bdellium". (I have a version of it on my user page.) However, I'm having a hard time coming up with words beginning with f, n, r, or s. For example, a silent Irish fh would be nice, but it doesn't seem to occur in English; it seems <f> is just about always for /f/. Anyone have any ideas for those, or any of the others? — kwami (talk) 03:28, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Have you seen the Cockney alphabet? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:35, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

No, I hadn't. That's fun too. I just linked to it from spelling alphabet. — kwami (talk) 03:51, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

With a twist you could go with eff as in enough and en as in gnocchi. Be aware Americans say /lama/ for llama. μηδείς (talk) 03:39, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'd like a better word for L too. I've been trying to keep the match to the initial letter, but it maybe it would be better to abandon that. — kwami (talk) 03:51, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Right. This time of year we're reminded of what Chicago would be like without its commuter train system: It would be No L. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:11, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Llandudno? Some English people use the Welsh pronunciation (most Welsh do, too). In my city, Liverpool, which is near Wales, we either pronounce the 'Ll' as /l/ or substitute /kl/ for it. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:32, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I was looking for a Welsh word that wasn't just /l/ like Lloyd or respelled like Floyd. Can you ref the /kl/ pronunciation? (I found /θl/, which is almost as good.) — kwami (talk) 07:14, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I can't find anything that I would consider a reliable reference in the strictest sense, but after Googling 'clandudno', I got a number of hits which agree with me. I had forgotten about the /θl/ pronunciation (primarily because we don't have /θ/ in Liverpool, or at least, it's very rare (and mostly female)). KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 08:08, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

If you don't go for silent letters, this place is good for L. As for the other letters, is it possible to have any of them be homophones of other entries for some alternative silliness? MChesterMC (talk) 09:12, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

E as in "eye", Y as in "you"? Or you mean longer words? That might be fun. — kwami (talk) 10:15, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Longer words, K as in Knock, N as in Nock, G as in Gnocchi. Or Q is for Qi, C is for Chi, K is for Khi if you wont to go really silly with it... MChesterMC (talk) 14:38, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

There's a Barenaked Ladies children's song that does this. I think it is "Crazy ABC's" on Snacktime!. "Q is for qat", "P is for pnuematic". I can't remember the title, and this is the sort of thing I can't look up on the work internet or I would search for it. They had trouble with R as well. I think the song went "R is for argyle, no it isn't". I don't recall the examples for your other letters. Katie R (talk) 14:09, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Great pointer, Katie! I googled the song (won't link there, but all I googled was "barenaked ladies" + "q is for qat", and the title is exactly as you wrote: "Crazy ABC's"). For the letters kwami asked about specifically: "F is for foehn, but not like when I call the ladies", "N is for ndomo", "R is for argyle / no it isn't /Okay, you're right, I couldn't find a good R word", and "S is for Saar, a lovely German river" (some lyrics websites give "Szár" (?)). ---Sluzzelin talk 14:23, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Don't know if the top image on the blacklisted web page called 'Crazy-ABCs-and-Bare-Naked-Ladies#slide3796160' comes from the album. It's Ngomo, w a gee and a silent en. Better 'n anything I could find! — kwami (talk) 19:25, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Yow moit be interested in de Black Country http://www.blackcountrybugle.co.uk/Doreens-Black-Country-Alphabet-poem-raised-loff/story-20134625-detail/story.html, aer kid. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:26, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

That's cute too! — kwami (talk) 19:25, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

• There is ell as in walk and the dangerous animal called a balm. μηδείς (talk) 17:37, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

No, you must have dreamt it, Medeis. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 19:49, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

• Have you read Mark Twain's take on this ? [1]. StuRat (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I've seen that somewhere. — kwami (talk) 19:25, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

That's rather a poor hoax, written by an arrhotic. μηδείς (talk) 22:16, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I didn't know Mark Twain wrote arrhotica. Having said that, I don't usually look at the top shelf. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 05:24, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

That's a modified version of a piece which appeared in the September 1946 issue of Astounding Science Fiction magazine, and has no connection with Twain.[2] It would probably be legitimate to have an article on Meihem in ce Klasrum... AnonMoos (talk) 08:36, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

What about r is for rote? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 08:20, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

'R' is for 'AAAAAAGH!' KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:04, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

[Sic]cing the [sic]cer; or "Fully [sic]"

I don't believe I've ever come across this issue before. Following is a verbatim quote from an online news report I read today, written by one Latika Bourke:

• Asked the next day about why the decision was taken to ban the media from an event when the speech was made public anyway, Mr McTernan wrote responded "Don't understand your processological [sic] focus."
• NB. The [sic] was inserted by Ms Bourke.

Now, my eagle eye spotted an error in Ms Bourke's own text: she wrote "wrote responded" where only one of those words was required.

If I were quoting this entire text, I would feel obliged to insert a [sic] after "wrote responded". How would I show that this [sic] is my [sic] in relation to Latika Bourke's writing, but the existing [sic] is Latika Bourke's [sic] in relation to the quote from the original author, Mr McTernan? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:42, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

"NB. The second [sic] in the text above was in the original text I have quoted, having been inserted by Ms Bourke." <= I think this would suffice. It always makes me [sic] when I see professional writers make mistakes. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:17, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

There's probably no formally unambiguous way of doing it that wouldn't be unduly cumbersome (like footnotes added to the "sic"s or the like), so the most suitable solution would be to modify the thing in some other way. If Bourke's original "sic" isn't central to the reason you are quoting her, you could replace her "[sic]" with a "[...]". Or, even easier, you could simply avoid quoting her verbatim and choose to paraphrase instead, which would be quite simple in the present case. Of course you could construct some hypothetical scenario where neither of these options would be acceptable, but that would have to be some really exotic scenario indeed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:24, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I would probably just put one (sic) at the end of the quotation, indicating that everything (including the original [sic]) is being quoted verbatim. If the quotation is in italics, I'd put my (sic) in normal type, and vice-versa (or vice versâ, if you prefer). But this sort of thing is very style-guide/editor dependent - see Sic#Formatting. Tevildo (talk) 13:42, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

How about writing the first one "[sic – Bourke]" and the second "[sic – McTernan]"? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 17:36, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, all 4 of you. Lots of food for thought there. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:23, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Cayenne and Guyana

Do the names Cayenne and Guyana/Guiana have a common origin, or is their similarity a coincidence? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 19:39, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

See Etymology Online. The name of the pepper is from the Tupi language, the name of the city (Cayenne) is a French transliteration of the name of the country, which is of "native" origin. Tevildo (talk) 20:54, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

In other words, probably, as the Tupi people, and other linguistically close peoples, were native to the Atlantic Coast of S. America, i.e. Guyana. --Jayron32 01:35, 21 December 2013 (UTC)