Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 May 22

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May 22

East Side, West Side

Famously, the east "part" of NYC is called the east side, and the west "part" the west side. In Winnipeg Canada, the usual terminology was (and probably still is) the east end, the west end, and the north end. (I omitted the "south end" because it does not come as readily to mind as the others).

I would like to know the terminology used in other cities, especially in the US and Canada. I'd like to get some input on this before stating a wee theory about this terminology. Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 01:22, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Chicago has a North side and South side. This comes up a lot when discussing the two Major League baseball teams in the city. The White Sox are often referred to as South Siders. The South side of the city is also known for being a higher crime area whereas the North side is known for being more affluent. That's a city. The state of Vermont has something that we call the Northeast Kingdom (article?) which makes up an area covering the three counties in the NE corner of the state. Dismas|^(talk) 01:39, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

And the Cubs are called the North Siders. There is also a West Side, where the Bulls and the Blackhawks play, and where the Cubs once did. The "east side", if there was one, would be Lake Michigan. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:35, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Saying something is on the East Side of Chicago is an occasional small joke used mostly with people who are unfamiliar with or new to the city Dismas|^(talk) 08:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

London has a West End and an East End. Many cities just use north/south/east/west <city>, e.g. South Los Angeles (often known as South Central LA). Lesgles (talk) 02:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Buffalo, New York has an East Side and a West Side (or at least an Upper West Side). Seattle has neither, but the cities east of Lake Washington are called the Eastside. Vancouver has an East Side, a Downtown Eastside, a West Side (no Wikipedia page on it apparently), and a West End. All with different meanings. Pfly (talk) 03:16, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Also, by the way, in New York City the terms East Side and West Side are not that common. Sometimes they are used as abbreviated forms of Upper East Side and Upper West Side, which are north of Midtown. Sometimes you hear of "Midtown East" and "Midtown West". South of Midtown, in Greenwich Village, there's the East Village and West Village. South of Canal Street you get the Lower East Side. There is no corresponding "Lower West Side". Of course, all of these are neighborhoods of Manhattan, and reference the geography of that island, not the whole city. In short, Manhattan doesn't really have a simple East Side. "West Side" is more often used by itself, because there is no Lower West Side to confuse with the Upper West Side. Pfly (talk) 03:59, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

One more thing, the pages West End, East End (disambiguation), West Side, and East Side might be useful.

Toronto has east and west ends rather than sides. Paris, of course, has a Right Bank and a Left Bank rather than north and south sides. I know of a couple of cities in Ohio which are divided into four quadrants (NE, NW, SE, SW) for addressing purchases; those quadrants are known as "sides," as in the "Northeast Side." -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:53, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Albuquerque, NM, is divided into four quadrants: Albuquerque,_New_Mexico#Quadrants. Pfly (talk) 04:05, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Boston is rather peculiar, in having South Boston and the South End, both of which are actually north of the center (presumably because Boston has grown south since they were named). StuRat (talk) 05:36, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I admit I'm a sucker for geography and place names, so I looked around for other terminologies and examples. Boston, yes, is an odd one. Not only South Boston and South End, but also North End and West End. If only there was an East End the city would have all four ends. The Greater Boston area is bounded to the north by what's called North Shore, and to the south by South Shore. The disambig pages South Shore, North Shore, West Shore, and East Shore have a few other examples of usage.

As for other terminologies for large-scale divisions of cities, there is of course Downtown (see Downtown (disambiguation) for examples) and Uptown, and also Midtown. They apparently come from Manhattan originally, but have been used elsewhere. Downtown and uptown often mean south and north, as in Manhattan, but sometimes refer to elevation, older and newer areas, etc. In Manhattan, the downtown-uptown distinction is probably more significant than the east and west sides (after all, the island is way longer north-south than east-west). I saw a music recital once featuring John Zorn, Milton Babbitt, and others; it was described as a downtown-uptown mix of music. Zorn said he was a downtown composer, Babbitt an uptown composer, and another whose name sadly slips my mind, joked she was a "cross-town" composer, suggesting an eclectic mix of both styles.

A few other curious examples. Cambridge, MA, is commonly thought of in terms of "squares", see Cambridge, Massachusetts#Squares. A friend of mine used to live "in Porter Square". New Orleans and its metro area have several terminologies in use, from the historic French Quarter and American Quarter (funny having just two quarters) and the various wards, a downtown and uptown, an East Bank and West Bank, and...well, just see New Orleans metropolitan area#Geographic Terms. Allentown, Pennsylvania mixes things up by having an East Side, South Side, West End, and, to the north, "The Wards" (see Template:Allentown Neighborhoods). Finally, Richmond, Virginia has a nicely mixed system, with four main divisions: North Side (two words), Southside (one word), East End, and West End (see Neighborhoods of Richmond, Virginia).

Now I'm curious about what Wanderer57's "wee theory" might be. Maybe something like the term "end" being more common in Commonwealth countries and "side" in the US? Pfly (talk) 07:06, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

St. Paul, Minnesota, has a "West Side" which is actually south of the downtown, across the Mississippi River. However, it's effectively the west bank of the river. And speaking of banks and such, there are a number of institutions in Minnesota (banks, insurance, etc.) that are referred to as "Northwest", even though they are closer to the east coast than to the west coast. That's because the "old northwest" of the USA only extended about that far, in the early years. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:33, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

See Northwest Territory (it even included Ohio !). StuRat (talk) 06:39, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Not far from where I live there's a place called Pakenham Upper, which sometimes creates some amusement when said out loud. HiLo48 (talk) 07:21, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

You could perhaps explain the joke for us Yanks. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:31, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Gee, I didn't think it was that culturally narrow. The second word can sound like "up her...", said sloppily. Does that help? HiLo48 (talk) 07:34, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

That would be a sexual reference: "packing ham up her". StuRat (talk) 07:35, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh well, I tried for subtlety and discretion, but you've got it! HiLo48 (talk) 07:43, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

It's not that culturally narrow. Bugs must have been having a slow day. I'm American and I got it right off. Dismas|^(talk) 08:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I failed to get it, mostly due to thinking Pakenham would be pronounced something like PAH-ken-hym". Pfly (talk) 09:06, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

In UK places ending "-ham", the last syllable is /əm/, not /hæm/, so any pun would usually be on "'em" not "ham". As in "There was a young lady of Twickenham/Who took off her gloves and was ... ". --ColinFine (talk) 10:48, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Equally true in Australia. I've never heard anyone pronounce "Pakenham" in a way that ends with the sound "ham". It's like packin' 'em (short for packing them). Now, just what are these "them" that are getting packed up her, that's what I want to know. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:03, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

In Providence, Rhode Island (founded 1636 and now celebrating her 375th), it's pretty firmly established (although there are certainly other neighborhoods that refuse to associate with any of these): the East Side (where I live) but the West End, the North End but the South Side. Referring back to the earlier question, all of these are, of course, considered in their relation to Downcity. Which goes to show that there aren't always two sides to a question. See Neighborhoods in Providence, Rhode Island. But when you consider how different and irregular the layouts and topography of different cities are, the variation in names isn't that surprising. Although it might be a little awkward dancing the Light Fantastic on the Sidewalks of Providence ("East Side, West End...") —— Shakescene (talk) 12:02, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

As Mwalcoff said, Toronto has "ends", but people don't really talk about them like that. We would just talk about particular neighbourhoods, in most cases. Another example of "ends" is London, Ontario, which has an "east end" (which is the stereotypically "bad" part of the city). It also has an Old North (and an Old South, I think?), which is roughly in the centre, now that the city has expanded so much. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:54, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for all the input. The examples given are not enough to test my theory but they don't contradict it.

Can anyone suggest somewhere to find the "geographic" terminology used in specific US and Canadian towns and cities? For cities, it must be "early" because as a city grows the terms used for parts of the city become more specific, largely replacing the original terminology, as Adam Bishop suggests has happened with Toronto. Wanderer57 (talk) 16:00, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Another quirk of place names is that there are more "New" names than "Old" names, like New York and New Jersey, because, of course, places are new when we name them. One exception seems to be a region of Connecticut with Old Saybrook, Old Lyme and Old Mystic (the last two in New London County). I wonder how they got those names. Do they rename towns after 100 years, when they get "old" ? StuRat (talk) 18:13, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

There are a number of "old" place names in the US, although often in forms like Old Fields, Old Fort, Old Bridge, etc. There are several Old Hickorys, named for Andrew Jackson no doubt. It's obvious what Old Glory, Texas is named for. Some have disambig pages here, like Old Furnace, Old Forge, Old Mill, and Old Field. A few with populations in the range of Old Saybrook, Lyme, and Mystic are Old Orchard Beach, Maine, Old Town, Maine, Old Jefferson, Louisiana, Old Westbury, New York, and Old Orchard, Pennsylvania. While finding these I came across some others with curious or funny names, like Old Dime Box, Texas, Old Neck Landing, Virginia, Old Ocean, Texas. I also noted an Old Toongabbie, New South Wales. In England there is the nicely self-contradictory Old Newton. I wonder if there are other Old New towns, or New Old towns. Pfly (talk) 05:53, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Ohio once had two different towns named Washington. The larger of the two is now known as Washington Court House, Ohio and the smaller is Old Washington, Ohio. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:21, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

While planning Salt Lake City and many (most?) of the frontier communities in what later became Utah, Brigham Young directed that they be laid out on a grid system with the Temple or a Tabernacle at the center. The street one block north of the center of town is usually called "100 North" or "First North," two streets north is called "200 North" or "Second North," and so on, with all four directions. With an address, then (1365 W 400 S, for example), you can visualize about where in the city it would be located. I married a New Englander, who was initially completely lost and confounded by this system, having grown up with more conventional street names like "Maple Street" and "Mass Ave." Kingsfold (Quack quack!) 14:27, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Arabic transliteration authority

There are often multiple alternate English spellings for common Arabic names from official sources. For example, نورة is translated as Nora, Norah, and Noura on different Saudi government web sites. More familiar are Koran/Quran, Gaddafi/Qaddafi, and al-Qaeda/al-Qaida. But in some cases, such as An Nawfaliyah, the problem becomes ridiculous. Romanization of Arabic looks to me like a complete train wreck with about twenty different "standards and systems" (three of them from the same ISO source.) What is currently considered the most authoritative system of English transliteration from Arabic? Dualus (talk) 02:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's the problem, authoritative for what purpose? The system of transliteration I am most familiar with is that of the International Journal of Middle East Studies, but if that is a standard, it is probably only in academia (and maybe only in the humanities). And I suppose that only covers classical and modern standard Arabic. What about the spoken dialects? "Arabic" isn't one single thing; it's like trying to come up with a system that would spell Italian, French, and Spanish the same way. I think T.E. Lawrence said something like all transliteration systems are "rotten". The best thing to do is to learn the Arabic alphabet! Adam Bishop (talk) 14:47, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

To echo or reinforce, rather than helpfully answer, the original question, Sporcle actually has a quiz challenging you to come up with the 31 common English spellings of Col. Gadafy's/Kadafy's last name in no more than four minutes (I got only 20). For a long time, the late Osama bin-Laden's official U.S. initials were UBL (for Usama Bin Ladin); see, for example, the glossary of abbreviations on page 429 of the 9/11 Commission Report. —— Shakescene (talk) 04:59, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Comma

Hello. Please, tell me which is correct: Roger, David, and Richard or Roger, David and Richard. As you see, the first version has comma before "and" and the second – no. I've seen both versions used on the Wikipedia and cannot decide which is correct. TGilmour (talk) 21:49, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

See MOS:SERIAL.—Wavelength (talk) 21:53, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Read this. Both are correct in your example, but depending on the context the decision whether or not to put a comma before the conjunction can change the meaning of the sentence. - filelakeshoe 21:54, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks :) TGilmour (talk) 22:51, 22 May 2011 (UTC)