Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 March 16
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March 16
editNo velar trill?
editThe consonant table, as shown in velar consonant, says that's impossible to produce a velar trill. Is that really true? I seem to be able to produce a sound that way, which sounds like a non-nasal snoring. It doesn't sound nice, though. It is certainly not uvular - as a German speaker, I'm very familiar with [ʀ]. — Sebastian 01:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- I am a non-native speaker of German, but I learned from a native speaker, and I also articulate /ʀ/ as a velar, not uvular, trill. I agree that the consonant table is incorrect. Perhaps two distinct symbols are needed for velar vs. uvular trills? I'd appreciate hearing from another native speaker. Marco polo 13:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- It's the IPA, not Wikipedia, who has declared velar trills impossible. Nevertheless, Peter Ladefoged writes in Sounds of the World's Languages, "Palatal and velar vibrations of the tongue body are sporadically produced, particularly as transitional phenomena in the release phase of Dorsal stops. A 'double burst' is seen particularly often at the release of a velar stop; this could be said to be a brief trill, but it never appears to be a required articulatory target" (p. 230). —Angr 13:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- The IPA targets sound distinctions that are, in some language, phonological. It may be that many people make velar trills, but no documented language distinguishes velar trills from uvular ones. --Diderot 16:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- It's more than just the absence of a symbol (indicating lack of use as a phoneme in any language). The IPA chart actually grays out the cell for "velar trill", with a note that grayed-out cells are "judged impossible". —Angr 16:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- Many linguists do not like the IPA for these sorts of reasons. The Jade Knight 08:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- It's more than just the absence of a symbol (indicating lack of use as a phoneme in any language). The IPA chart actually grays out the cell for "velar trill", with a note that grayed-out cells are "judged impossible". —Angr 16:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- The IPA targets sound distinctions that are, in some language, phonological. It may be that many people make velar trills, but no documented language distinguishes velar trills from uvular ones. --Diderot 16:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- It's the IPA, not Wikipedia, who has declared velar trills impossible. Nevertheless, Peter Ladefoged writes in Sounds of the World's Languages, "Palatal and velar vibrations of the tongue body are sporadically produced, particularly as transitional phenomena in the release phase of Dorsal stops. A 'double burst' is seen particularly often at the release of a velar stop; this could be said to be a brief trill, but it never appears to be a required articulatory target" (p. 230). —Angr 13:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think the text on the chart is simplifying. Graying-out does not actually indicate that an articulation is entirely impossible. The IPA Handbook actually says:
| “ | Shaded cells occur where the intersection of a manner and a place of articulation define a sound which is thought not be possible, either by definition (a nasal requires an oral occlusion combined with lowering of the velum, and so a pharyngeal or glottal nasal is ruled out), or because the sound is impossible or too difficult to produce, such as a velar trill or a bilabial lateral fricative. Unless phoneticians are mistaken in their view of the latter category of sound, no symbols will be needed for any of the shaded cells. | ” |
- It's not strictly speaking impossible, but it's too difficult to be produced consistently, hence "it never appears to be a required articulatory target" as Angr quoted above. --Ptcamn 09:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the quote. The mention of the bilabial lateral fricative makes it apparent that my mouth just works differently from the IPA folks: I find it much easier to produce a bilabial lateral fricative than many other consonants. And thanks to Marco: I now think I'm actually pronouncing the German /ʀ/ as a velar trill, or better: somewhere between a trill and a fricative. The snoring-like sound I described earlier results when I increase the pressure, thereby forcing it to only trill. — Sebastian 19:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
translating
edithow do you translate "decoracion de interiores"--201.201.164.198 02:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)