Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 April 9

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April 9

Book printing norms by language

Perhaps not entirely a linguistic question, but I've noticed that in pictures of Spanish books that have text written the long way on their spine, it's oriented the reverse of what I'm used to, with the back cover, rather than the front, being "up". Is this a convention that varies consistently by language, and if so, does anybody keep track of which languages prefer which? Lazar Taxon (talk) 03:14, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Checking my bookshelves, I find the following ratios (the right hand figure is the orientation noticed by you as unusual):

English tr. from Arabic 0-1; English tr. from French 0-1; French 1-2; German 0-6; Hungarian 0-1; Polish 1-1; Portuguese 7-22; Spanish 2-3; Turkish 0-3; Urdu 2-1; Vietnamese 6-13.

The number of English language books that use the unusual variant seems infinitesimal - of the total I have (too many to count) just eight use it:

• Automobile Association Members' handbook 1997/98 (Basingstoke, 1996)
• Bendles (Torquay) Modern printers year book 1968
• Gregory/Hadley A classbook of physics (London, 1927)
• Hackney official guide (London, 1972)
• Hodgson/Williams Locomotive management (London, 1939)
• The Motor How to drive a car (London, 1950)
• Tarr Printing today (Oxford, 1949)
• Tote racing annual, 1971 (London) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.228.205 (talk) 10:17, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Checking my bookshelves, English books go top-to-bottom (The Outlaw Ocean is horizontal). I found a a bottom-to-top one but it is published in Spain about local trekking.

Spanish ones don't have a clear preference. I'd have to count them. I can confirm that when checking the shelves of libraries and bookshops I am tilting my head from side to side wishing that there were a standard. I hadn't realized there is one in English.

Italian books: 5 b-t-t, 1 horizontal and 1 t-t-b.

Romanian books: 4 b-t-t, 1 horizontal.

Latin Astérix books: 3 b-t-t.

Anyway, you should check bookbinding#Titling. As I said, I am not sure that Spain has a standard.

--Error (talk) 11:59, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

I've just had a look at the nearest bookshelves covering the Dewey range 625 – 791.47. There were 234 ttb, 20 horizontal 40 none and 6 btt. The odd six were:

• 20 Illustrazioni colori Galleria Uffizi
• Rawlinson, T H (1935). The builders' carpenter : fixing and finishing ; a handy book for carpenters. London: The Technical Press Ltd.
• Hart, Horace (1952). Rules for Compositors and Readers at the University Press, Oxford (36th ed.). London: Oxford University Press.
• Charles, Sarah (1973). Baking your cake and eating it. Manchester: Co-operative Wholesale Society Ltd.
• Vos, Dirk de (1987). Groeningemuseum, Bruges. Valentin Veermeersch, Jean-Marie Duvosquel (eds.), P Lefevere, A Lefevere (trans.). Bruges: Gemeentekrediet.
• Nithsdale, W H; Manton, A J (1924). Practical brewing and the management of British beers. Glasgow: John Smith & Son (Glasgow).

of those: two are foreign (Galleria Uffizi and Vos[1987]) and two are pre-WWII (Rawlinson[1935] and Nithsdale & Manton[1924]). Of the other two, one was a freebee with a magazine [Charles(1973)] but the sixth is surprising, Hart(1952) published by Oxford. It does confirm that post-WWII English publishers seem to have settled on ttb. From memory, when I worked in a public reference library in the 1970s the direction was highly variable, but I was looking after the 100s which contained a significant number of older volumes. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:07, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Different nations' conventions are covered in Bookbinding#Titling. (Note that the top-to-bottom convention in Britain is relatively recent; I have a number of older British books on my shelves that use bottom-to-top on the spines). Deor (talk) 21:51, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

DA disqualifies judge

[1] Alameda County (California) DA says she will disqualify a certain judge from presiding over any further criminal trials that the DA tries. My first question was how she was gonna do that, but apparently both the DA and the defendant get one peremptory challenge against the judge, as well as a pretty high number against prospective jurors. The next obvious question is that if she's gonna use up her challenge every time she comes in front of this judge, doesn't that leave her stuck with the next judge, who might be worse, depending on the case?

The real question though, is: what exactly is the perceived bias shown by the judge? The defendant was accused of three unusually evil murders (facing 75 years in prison). The DA offered a plea deal reducing the charges to a single count of manslaughter (15 years), and the judge rejected the plea deal. I interpret that to mean the judge wanted the case to go to trial for all 3 murders, and the DA seemed to think that constituted an unfair trial. Ok, maybe it did, but in that case, why did the DA file those charges in the first place? Usually if a DA complains of unfair trials, they think the judge is too lenient on criminal defendants. Is this one saying that the judge is too harsh? Or was the DA trying to overcharge the defendant on shaky evidence, in order to force a plea deal? Squelching that seems like the right thing to do.

IANAL and maybe there is info missing from the article, but I find it to be a head scratcher. Thanks. 2602:243:2007:9990:FC12:23ED:462:65F4 (talk) 09:52, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Very weird. Apparently she also accused the judge of inappropriate comments. But the context seems unclear:

"Price, in her video, accused the judge of 'inappropriate comments and conduct,' but did not specify what, exactly, she was referring to.

'He has created a firestorm of prejudicial comments that do not, in my view, serve justice,' Price said in the video, citing public comments made by McCannon on two occasions. 'My office will file a motion to disqualify him from hearing any criminal cases prosecuted by our office.'"[2]

It's fascinating how many sites refer to the DA as "Soros DA" or "Soros backed DA". 'Merica Random person no 362478479 (talk) 11:27, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

As to the plea deal. The DA assumed the office this January.[3] The original charges were probably brought by her predecessor. This gives a bit more information about the whole affair. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 11:36, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

See George Soros conspiracy theories. In general, if any news site calls something "Soros-backed", that news site has just removed itself from any consideration that it is a reliable source. It's an anti-Semitic dog whistle and generally is always bullshit. The use of that phrase indicates that everything said source publishes is propaganda and not actual news. --Jayron32 16:33, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

On the plus side it allowed me to see with one glance which search results I could skip. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 17:05, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

But you can look for more beyond the dog-whistles: Color of Change, How civil rights groups are using the election create black political power, "Problem Prosecutors Lost Big on Election Night", "With the Trump Arraignment, Americans Are Seeing the Power of the Local Prosecutor". fiveby(zero) 17:45, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

To be fair, "tough on crime" (as noted in your third link) is itself a dog whistle. [4], often used by the same kinds of people who use "Soros-backed". --Jayron32 18:13, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it's always easier to look for the "kinds of people" to oppose rather than think and read about complex issues. fiveby(zero) 18:51, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

The issue is not complex, some people make the choice to be racists, and they can choose at any time to stop. As long as they continue to make those choices, good people in the world will continue to tell them to stop being racists. --Jayron32 13:12, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it is important to look beyond the anti-Semitic dog whistle. If you don't you risk overlooking the racist music festival. Random person no 362478479 (talk) 13:25, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Did you read the articles, are not prosecutorial discretion and plea bargaining complex matters? Read the quotes such as "[district attorneys] are the most powerful actors in the criminal justice space...They will determine whether someone gets a misdemeanor or a felony, whether a police officer is held accountable". A laudable exercise of democracy to target these races in the hope of positive change in our system even if PAC funded. Is it not unreasonable to look for the why behind the effort and then ask has it been and will it be effective? Is Pamela Price fulfilling her mandate here? Is Bragg's "water pistol unnecessarily preceding the missile-launching F-35 attack piloted by Jack Smith with Merrick Garland as his wingman"[5] a good use of his mandate? Did the effort result in some DA's who will bring about change, or will they be more of the same, using their overbroad discretion to further their own political careers?

Calling me racist for asking is probably very self-validating and signals you are one of the "good people", but will prevent a closer look at whether our "Soros-backed" effort has had a positive impact. fiveby(zero) 15:33, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

I never called you a racist. Not once. I certainly said the word, but at no time did I say you were one. --Jayron32 18:13, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Now, the issue of prosecutorial discretion and the like is probably a conversation that can be had, but that is entirely unrelated to the issue of calling a DA "Soros-backed", which is a loaded term designed to discredit the prosecutor among people inclined to bigotry. When a source uses the phrase "Soros-backed", it's a means of ginning up anger among bigots and getting them to stop listening to the complex issues you want to get at. Yes, there are complex issues at play. Using the phrase "Soros-backed" is a bigoted dog-whistle designed to get people to stop dealing with the complex issues around unfairness in the criminal justice system, and in society at large. I'm not saying this, by the way, about you. Just to be clear, to avoid misunderstanding. I'm saying this about news sources that describe the DA as "Soros-backed". That's the bullshit we need to stop listening to. The people who wrote that are the bigots. --Jayron32 18:22, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses and I hadn't particularly connected "Soros-backed" with anti-Semitism. You might be right and I'll start paying attention to it. But I had only thought of it as an insinuation that a billionaire was pulling the strings instead of having the election really show the wishes of the public. The same thing happens when Democrats refer to a GOP candidate as backed by the Koch Brothers or by Sheldon Adelson. Or if those guys are no longer on the scene, whoever has taken their place by now (Harlan Crow has been in the news lately). 2602:243:2007:9990:FC12:23ED:462:65F4 (talk) 19:21, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

"Soros-backed" is an old anti-Semitic dog whistle that’s been used by siloed, right wing information sources for quite a long time now. It is most assuredly not the same or equivalent to machinations by the Koch Network and allegations about their influence, but people on the right have tried to make that false analogy for a while now. As for having elections [not] "show the wishes of the public", that already happens due to gerrymandering, electoral suppression, and anti-democratic policies. This is especially true when one reviews the Princeton study findings which shows that elected representatives vote on behalf of their wealthy donors, not their constituents, and that the average American has little to no power to influence their government. The major difference between Soros and the Kochs that you haven’t noticed, is that Soros overtly supports democratic policies which would ameliorate this problem while the members of the Koch Network explicitly oppose democratic policies and proposals that would devolve decisions and power sharing back to the people. This is the major difference between Soros and the Kochs; it’s a matter of popular democracy versus elite plutocracy. The unusual part of it that confuses everyone is that the Koch Network works behind the scenes to manufacture fake grassroots movements and culture wars to generate so-called popular support for the billionaire class, whereas Soros simply promotes ideas that are already popular with the average person. Viriditas (talk) 03:43, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

What's the name for a novel written in the manner described below?

A writes the beginning, then B takes over, followed by C, etc. Also, did any such (patch)work achieve literary merit? Clarityfiend (talk) 13:49, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I believe that other names have been used, but our article is Round-robin story. Deor (talk) 15:01, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Ding, ding, ding. I believe we have a winner. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:36, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

There is The Floating Admiral and a couple of other items by the Detection Club, which had some well-known members. And there is Teleny, or The Reverse of the Medal, which was attributed to Oscar Wilde, but thought by some to be written in as in round robin. older ≠ wiser 15:09, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

And in the realm of non-fandom Scifi there is Cosmos. older ≠ wiser 15:12, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

They're also sometimes called "multiple perspective novels" or "multi-voiced novels". The term "Rashomon effect", though originally applied to films, often now gets used about novels as well. I suppose this form evolved from the epistolary novel, a term which has become elastic enough to cover many such. Other examples that come to mind are Wilkie Collins' The Woman in White, Barbara Kingsolver's The Poisonwood Bible, David Mitchell's The Bone Clocks and Orhan Pamuk's My Name is Red. --Antiquary (talk) 15:23, 9 April 2023 (UTC) Damn, scrub that. I now see that wasn't what the OP was asking about. --Antiquary (talk) 15:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Naked Came the Stranger might qualify as an example. It's in a category called "Collaborative novels", which could be what the OP is looking for. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:33, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

And there's one with a title inspired by that one: Naked Came the Manatee. Deor (talk) 13:59, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Not quite. Collaborations are people working together. I was looking for the term for writers working separately, doing their thing and then passing it on. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:36, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Dickens was involved in several such team efforts, although some of them come in the form of a frame story containing a number of separate stories, which is perhaps cheating. "A House to Let" is certainly a round-robin story in the strict sense. --Antiquary (talk) 16:02, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I recently found such a novel in a second-hand bookshop. Yeats is Dead! is by 15 Irish writers, including such names as Roddy Doyle, Frank McCourt, Marian Keyes and Joseph O'Connor. I'm surprised it's not better known. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:36, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Amadís de Gaula has several sequels by different authors. The article has praise from several experts.

The technique you ask about reminds me of the Surrealist cadavre exquis.

--Error (talk) 12:07, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

In the pre-WW1 U.S., "The Whole Family" was fairly well known. Apparently the author of chapter 2 kind of hijacked the novel away from its originally-intended plot arc! AnonMoos (talk) 19:37, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:36, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

"Nobody loves me...

...everybody hates me, I think I'll go and eat worms" as the song goes. But what and when was its origin? I've seen postcards from the 1900s with plays on the idea. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 17:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

• Beale, Paul, ed. (2005). "I'll go out into the garden and eat worms". A Dictionary Of Catch Phrases.

Antonio Inoki and Mitsuko Baisho

Why did they divorce? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.113.103 (talk) 21:45, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

This says "his divorce from famous actress Mitsuko Baisho was finalized that same year, having been induced by Inoki’s infidelity." --Jayron32 13:10, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Can you find a more specigic description about the motive? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.98.19 (talk) 13:53, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Infidelity means that he had sexual relations with someone other than his wife. The article does not specific with whom that was to any more specificity, and I cannot find any more information either. --Jayron32 14:50, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

It's possible that the specifics were not a matter of public record. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:54, 10 April 2023 (UTC)