Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 April 9

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April 9

Historical maps of border forts in various areas

On page 121 in this book, you will see a map of the border forts in France, Belgium, and Germany on the eve of World War I:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_New_World/XkwgAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=forts

What I am wondering is this, though--do you know of any other, similar maps of border forts for any other regions, either during the early 20th century or at some other historical point(s) in time? I don't mean extremely long wall-like fortifications such as the Maginot Line, but rather more traditional border forts (fortifications) similar to those on page 121 in the book above. Futurist110 (talk) 01:34, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

See Limes_Germanicus#Roman_forts_along_the_limes for some nice maps of fortifications around the same region in a very different time period. --Amble (talk) 17:54, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Wow! Very interesting! Thank you! Futurist110 (talk) 20:36, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

See also Lines of Torres Vedras (1809-1810).

We also have an article on the pre-WWI Western Russian fortresses, but no specific map that I can find. Alansplodge (talk) 21:10, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Note that the Maginot Line was not a continuous barrier, but a line of underground forts called Gros Ouvrages ("Large Works"), such as Ouvrage Schoenenbourg, interspersed with smaller forts, artillery casemates and bunkers. Alansplodge (talk) 21:17, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Futurist110 The 14th century Gough Map shows many of the castles of the Welsh borders pretty well. The term "border fort" is obviously not quite right, but in many ways they were intended to fulfil the sort of function you describe. It also shows the Castles_and_Town_Walls_of_King_Edward_in_Gwynedd, which one could argue may have been intended to create a perimeter for safely conquered Wales around Snowdonia. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 20:22, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Not exactly a map, but if you're ever in Paris I warmly recommend a visit here: Musée des Plans-Reliefs Chuntuk (talk) 09:04, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Are Eliyahu Meridor and Ya'akov Meridor related?

As far as can reasonably be known, are Eliyahu Meridor and Ya'akov Meridor known to be related paternally, or is it a coincidence that they have the same last name? 147.161.12.65 (talk) 09:53, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Since they differed in age by a mere nine months and three weeks, they are unlikely to be offspring of the same mother, which also makes it somewhat unlikely they share a father. More to the point, the birthname of Ya'akov was Yaakov VINIARSKY, and he was born in born in Lipno in Congress Poland. The birthname of Eliyahu was Elijhu WIERZBOLOWSKI, and he was born in Saint Petersburg (just before its name was changed to Petrograd), some 1000 km northeast of Lipno. So any close blood relationship is extremely unlikely. There is probably a story behind their common adoption of the surname Meridor, perhaps chosen as a nom de guerre related to both being Irgun terrorists. According to the Hebrew Wikipedia, the name comes from the novel Samson by Ze'ev Jabotinsky, himself an Irgun commander, and means, reportedly, "quarrel generation", a compound formed from מריבה (meribah) + דור (dor). Others translate the name as "generation of revolt".^[1]  --Lambiam 14:30, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Are sanctions actually effective?

I mean economic sanctions for political reasons, like the Western sanctions against Iran, North Korea, recently the Myanmar army. == 219.74.217.15 (talk · contribs)

Googling your heading yields widely varying results (this ref desk is not intended as a forum for opinion). 2603:6081:1C00:1187:589A:24D7:BCFA:E214 (talk) 16:44, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Define "effective". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:44, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

I am not asking for opinion or moral views. I am asking about the past results of sanctions. Whether the sanctions achieve their goals, like slowing North Korea nuclear weapon testing, or end up only hurting ordinary people in the sanctioned countries. == 219.74.217.15 (talk · contribs)

First, start signing your posts. Then, explore Google as 2603 advises. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:53, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Economic sanctions that target a state with an autocratic regime will largely impact the general populace, who cannot elect to replace the regime by a more democratic one. Those in power can, most likely, hold on to their privileges, even if the sanctions have a significant impact on the country's economy; it just means they need to extract even more from the already suffering common people, so the impact on them personally is rather limited. For this simple reason, they have historically not been very effective. If regime change is the goal, they may even be counterproductive.^[2] See also the sections Economic sanctions § Effectiveness of economic sanctions and Economic sanctions § Criticism. The problem being recognized, a new approach that is being tried is "surgical precision", that is, targeting responsible individuals and companies individually.^[3] Whether this will have more effect is perhaps too early to tell (some have their doubts^[4]), but at least it inflicts less "collateral damage" on ordinary citizens.  --Lambiam 14:52, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

See also Sanctions against Iraq#Effectiveness: "There is a general consensus that the sanctions achieved the express goals of limiting Iraqi arms". The trouble was that the US and their allies didn't believe it. Alansplodge (talk) 15:00, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

More that they feigned to not believe it or found it inconvenient to believe something that all the evidence indicated, but which conflicted with other goals.John Z (talk) 03:19, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Napoleonic-era French gunboat in Birmingham

Showell's Dictionary of Birmingham (1885), p192 says:

Sir Rowland Hill, speaking of his childhood's days, said he could recollect once during the war with Napoleon that a French gunboat was dragged across the country, and shown in Birmingham at a small charge. He had never then seen any vessel bigger than a coal barge, but this was a real ship, with real anchor and real ship guns.

Do we know any more about this incident, or the ship involved? Presumably, it was also exhibited elsewhere - but where? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:01, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

I found the full text of the book here, and it is strongly implied that the ship was captured at the Battle of Trafalgar, and accompanies a bit of doggerel verse on the same. Wikipedia's article lists a number of captured French warships, perhaps that will lead you somewhere? --Jayron32 14:37, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Hmm... our article has HMS Swiftsure (1787) as the only captured French ship to return to Britain after Trafalgar - the French had previously captured it from Britain in 1801. A bit of a challenge to drag anywhere overland at over 1,600 tons, and Birmingham is about as far away from the sea as you can get in England (80+ miles from the Mersey). However, I have exhausted my Googling tricks without result except Rowland Hill's account. Alansplodge (talk) 20:58, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

I have posted a note for the learned sages at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ships#Napoleonic-era_French_gunboat_in_Birmingham. If they don't know, there is no hope. Alansplodge (talk) 14:48, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:59, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Much closer to Gloucester, or even Stourport, but point well made. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:59, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting my ignorance of Midlands geography. I see that the point furthest from the sea in England is actually Coton in the Elms, some 30 miles further north. Alansplodge (talk) 21:23, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

As a general comment, Napoleonic-era gunboats were often very small vessels - as Gunboat#Pre-steam era notes, they often were armed with only a single cannon. Drawings I've seen suggest than many were about the size of a modern family caravan, or maybe even smaller, so it seems entirely feasible that one could be moved overland to Birmingham. As the ships were made of wood planking, they could easily also be partly disassembled then re-assembled. Nick-D (talk) 23:49, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

But Hill's account makes it clear that it was much larger than a coal barge and had more than one gun, so perhaps a brig, cutter or schooner. I'm not sure that we should take his use of the term "gunboat" as a technical definition. Alansplodge (talk) 13:40, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Leaving aside the Trafalgar suggestion, a large number of "French gun-boats" were captured in the Dover Straits in January 1804 - newspaper reports mention 27 in number - and maybe others pre-Trafalgar. But I found no mention of any being carted to Birmingham, or being exhibited at Worcester (where Hill was brought up). Davidships (talk) 19:17, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Brazilian census records online

Is there any way to look at Brazilian census records–as in, at actual Brazilian census entries–online? FamilySearch.org allows you this option in regards to U.S. Census entries up to the 1940 U.S. Census. Futurist110 (talk) 20:47, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

"After compiling statistical information, the original census returns in Brazil were often destroyed" [5] Alansplodge (talk) 23:28, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Any exceptions to this rule? Futurist110 (talk) 00:34, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, read the link that I posted. Alansplodge (talk) 14:38, 10 April 2021 (UTC)