Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2019 December 31

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December 31

French administrator of Uturoa

I need a list of the first few French administrator of Uturoa on Raiatea from the inception of the post in the 1880s to 1900. They would have been referred to as Residents and have been subordinated to the List of colonial and departmental heads of French Polynesia. User:EricR, are any administrator mentioned in the sources you've dug through? I am going to ask fr:Wikipédia:Oracle/semaine 1 2020 as well. KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:34, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Looking at Annuaire des Êtablissements français de l'Oceanie for 1891-1904 there is in each a report "ILES SOUS-LE-VENT" in each. To 1897 by orders of 17,19 and 20 March 1888 with residents. From 1898 through 1904 by orders of 27 June, 28 July and September 1897 an Administrator. Each has lists of successive appointments.

This is for the résident(s), and later Administrator of the Leeward Islands (with it's administrative center at Uturoa) which is i think what you meant. The Leeward Islands were Établissement secondaire distinct and till 1897 L’autorité y est exercée par un ou plusieurs résidents by order of the Governor. After 1897 Cet établissement est placé sous la haute autorité du Gomerneur de Tahiti, qui y exerce les pouvoirs qui lui sont dévolus par l’inter— médiaire des Chefs d’Adminislration et de service de la colonie et par celui de l'Administrateur de l’archipel.

The lists are pretty confusing for me, and someone who can actually understand French should take a look. For instance: the first two naval officers are not listed under Ont été nommés successivement résidents before 1897, but are in later years. 1904 has M. Cadousteau, Jean Marie 1 September 1892 to 10 March 1893 a rempli par intérim les fonctions d'Administrateur, but not in the 1897 list. There are vice-résidents listed also. The 20 March 1888 order has L’autorité y est exercée par un ou plusieurs Résidents dans les con ditions determinées par la législation en vigueur dans les autres Etablissements but then goes on to describe the powers of a single résident.

My reading is that Alby was the highest ranking colonial administrator and resident (probably de facto Administrator) from 17 september 1888 (excepting Cadousteau interm), until 25 December 1897 when Flémeing was appointed Administrator. Someone who understands French colonial administration could probably help.—eric 15:34, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

I will try to look into it. I think de facto, in place applies in some other cases, maybe not in Alby's case ( Alby, Marie Maximilien Gustave, 1855-1920). He was not a naval officer, which seems it would be excluding an interim assignment. --Askedonty (talk) 22:11, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

I am going to assume Alby was the résident during this period. I am curious about the interim position of Jean Marie Cadousteau and if he is the same person in the 1888 annexation documents. I am assuming that the vice-résident would have been appointed to the other islands of Bora Bora and Huahine. KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:12, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Regarding the interim period a Jean-Marie Cadousteau, translator (1st class) in Tahiti, is noted getting at retirement age in 1911 [1]. I would say a profile probably excluding any overly ambitious plans for his civil career.

Some extrapolation however after the source above regarding Gustave Alby. Maximilien Gustave Alby is active as a "Director for political matters" in Dahomey, in 1893, which is coherent with his being "replaced" by September 1892. The source says he applied for the position of an administrator but it doesn't seem that the title was formaly granted. But the source also says he was a conseiller général initially. That is both curious, and possibly very much in line with that "political" definition of his following position. The conseiller général is a locally elected official, not the title for a position in the civil service (without meaning the two would have been mutually exclusive). Of course in 1888 most of the electorate had to be european, yet the central government of France is said to have targetted a very inclusive citizenship model with the EFO (Établissements Français de l’Océanie) « Les électeurs des Établissements Français de l’Océanie sont formés à la vie publique beaucoup mieux que ceux de nos autres colonies et peut-être même que certaines régions de la France » Lettre du gouverneur Gabrié au ministre des colonies, 2 août 1897  The electorate of the Établissements Français de l’Océanie are very well prepared to (representative democracy) politics, much better than people in our other colonies and even perhaps in some of our provinces (in: Letter from Governor to the Ministre). The Conseil Général was instituted in 1885 which means that it was of course a brand new institution by 1888 at Uturoa.

Here a second source mentioning Alby, corroboration of the previous. --Askedonty (talk) 17:05, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

BTW thanks for all the help on this desk, I've been able to piece together the story of Tuarii, a monarch known only through French postcards, Dodd's Rape of Tahiti and a misremembered name in English sources, through some of these sources. KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:26, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Atlantic slave ship travel time

In Atlantic slave trade, in the 18th and 19th centuries, when a slave ship took slaves from Africa to America in the Middle Passage of the Triangular trade, how many days long did the trip usually take? I skimmed the linked articles but didn't seem to find data about this.

After some particularly bad trips on a low-cost airline, I feel that the drawings of slaves packed on ships with sardines would be more meaningful if they were presented together with such information.

– b_jonas 10:10, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

The BBC had a show about it. It was 1-3 months. A writeup is here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1624_story_of_africa/page53.shtml

I expect you will have difficulty finding similar information in American media because it doesn't fit with the American narrative of slavery. 135.84.167.41 (talk) 13:40, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

That last sentence is an odd comment. In which way doesn't the actual duration fit? Does the American narrative describe the transit as being less than 1 month? Or more that 3 month? --Lgriot (talk) 13:52, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

I have not done an exhaustive search of American media and I am no expert on the topic. The BBC program states that only 5% of slaves were delivered to North America. Most were sent to South America (a 1-month trip) or the islands (a 2-3 month trip). My daughter's history book and the African American museum in Washington DC both imply that nearly all slaves were delivered to Georgia and South Carolina, which would take longer than 3 months. So, with that narrative, you get a longer trip. 135.84.167.41 (talk) 14:06, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

The Last American Slave Ship describes a large sailing yacht converted to a slaver, Wanderer, which left the Congo at the beginning of September 1858 and arrived at an island off the coast of Georgia at the end of November. Our article doesn't give precise details, but says that it was a "six-week voyage". Note that this vessel was designed for racing and much faster than the conventional cargo ships used at the height of the trade which was banned by the USA in 1807. Also, sailing ships were entirely at the mercy of the elements, so contrary winds or no wind at all could extend a two-month journey to a year or more. Alansplodge (talk) 16:32, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the replies so far. – b_jonas 11:01, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

One factor is that before 1808, slave trading from Africa was entirely legal, so ships could sail openly, while after 1808 it was illegal in the U.K. and U.S., with a number of other countries following these two, and enforcement efforts gradually increasing in effectiveness over the decades. By the time of the Clotilda, oceanic slave-trading efforts had to be highly surreptitious. And of course, ships were somewhat at the mercy of the winds during the whole history of Atlantic slave-trading. AnonMoos (talk) 18:48, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Dublin, Basilisk, Cormorant, Thalia, Salamander, Carysfort, Talbot, Modeste, Collingwood

Someone with good knowledge of British naval history. Who were the captains and second-in-commands of these ships from 1842 to 1847 (around when they were in the Society Islands)? Presumably they are the same person. The ships were: Dublin, 1843; Basilisk, Cormorant, Thalia, Salamander, Carysfort, 1844; Talbot, Modeste, Collingwood 1845.KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:02, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

HMS Dublin was commanded by John Jervis Tucker R.N. 1841-1845, when she was the flagship of Rear-Admiral Richard Darton Thomas.

HMS Basilisk was commanded by Henry Samuel Hunt R.N. from 26 November 1841 to 1845 when she was in the Pacific.

HMS Cormorant, Frederick Beauchamp Paget Seymour R.N. (Beauchamp Seymour, 1st Baron Alcester), 5 June 1847 - 13 December 1847.

HMS Thalia; Charles Hope R.N., 28 August 1841 - 1845 (he was part of a large family of Scottish politicians, admirals, generals and judges, some of whom we have articles on).

HMS Salamander; Andrew Snape Hamond R.N. 24 June 1842 - ? (the son of Sir Graham Hamond, 2nd Baronet). Alansplodge (talk) 11:29, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

HMS Carysfort; George Paulet R.N. 28 December 1841- June 1845 (the son of Charles Paulet, 13th Marquess of Winchester)

HMS Talbot; Thomas Raikes Trigge Thompson R.N. (see also this) 20 April 1842 - 26 March 1847 (the son of Sir Thomas Thompson, 1st Baronet)

HMS Modeste; Thomas Baillie R.N. 5 June 1843- 1845 (recalled "to study steam") and Thomas Vernon Watkins R.N. 27 December 1845 - 1847.

HMS Collingwood; Robert Smart R.N. (see also Robert Smart) 13 August 1844 - 20 July 1848, when she was the flagship of Rear-Admiral George Francis Seymour R.N. (George Seymour (Royal Navy officer)).

Alansplodge (talk) 11:29, 1 January 2020 (UTC)