Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 May 24

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May 24

Anti-fraud laws and magic

Do anti-fraud laws cover magic that only steals from society a tiny amount of inflation? They don't have to but if they aren't lawyery enough one could argue that putting a fake gold nugget into the Indian in the Cupboard cabinet and selling it wouldn't be fraud since it's real gold. Is it allowed to ask a genie to make you win a huge bet at a casino? Is it illegal to ask a genie for tomorrow's lottery numbers? Or just to win money with them? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:34, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

As per our article, magic is a performing art designed to entertain by staged tricks or illusions. And as per our other article, inflation is a sustained increase in price levels over a period of time. Did you have a serious question? DOR (HK) (talk) 16:52, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

If he does, it will be his first. --Jayron32 17:41, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes but when I see fiction I sometimes notice a character could've used their powers or magical object or wish quota to make gold, transmute to it or duplicate anything. And then wonder if the laws of this world are broadly worded enough to proscribe that (whether by wording any prohibition as broadly as possible out of habit or just accidentally having a certain word choice (i.e. the definitions section of a gold sale law says "gold is a mineral of the atomic number 79" and mineral had an official definition in that jurisdiction that says it's a natural resource that.. which accidentally explicitly excludes supernatural gold) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:07, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Being as how there's no such thing as supernatural gold (nor anything else), there's no need for real world laws to deal with it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:37, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

And inflation may not be the correct economic term for increasing the amount of gold in circulation (obviously only by mining/recovery or possibly nuclear physics in this universe) but doing that doesn't help the commodity's purchasing power/trading power, just like counterfeiting. Too many people counterfeiting could cause detectable inflation so couldn't it be argued that anyone who faked even 1 banknote caused some inflation? (however miniscule) "Gold inflation" i.e. isn't talked about much but the gold per human is growing very slowly since humans have mined for millennia and the low-hanging fruit is long gone. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:53, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Asteroid mining. The prices of some "guaranteed safe" commodities may fall like no one has ever imagined. The diamond cartel has been incredibly effective at keeping synthetic diamonds under control by hook and crook, mostly crook, but I don't think that real amounts of metal brought back by people who can get spaceships approved by regulators are going to fall to any similar means, especially since there's no gold cartel as organized and powerful as de Beers. Wnt (talk) 15:08, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

You may be confusing inflation (increasing the money supply more rapidly than the supply of stuff to buy with it) with debasement (diluting precious metals in coinage). When Spain imported silver and gold from the New World, the result was inflation, although the metals were real. —Tamfang (talk) 06:24, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Transmutation is possible by nuclear means. It used to be that transmutation to produce gold was something of a joke, since the only known way to do it was to start with platinum, but recently platinum has actually been cheaper than gold and so I can't rule out that someone somewhere is doing so. Which, if they can actually avoid leaving radioactive contaminants at least, should be entirely legal. Whether it is economically feasible is another question.

Precognition is also generally reckoned as legal - I have seen news stories about lottery winners who openly said that they had remembered the winning numbers, and they were not prosecuted. (Few countries actually appreciate the danger involved in such a phenomenon, and witch trials are rare outside of Africa, at least as far as anyone knows; and there they are just random mob persecutions anyway, as they've probably always been) Wnt (talk) 15:05, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Now you've got me casually wondering about a kid book I once read. Someone plants a $10 bill in the back yard and it sprouts into a money tree. The family(?) initially hesitates to spend the leaves, but they do seem to be real (complete with distinct serial numbers), so .... Eventually, though, someone is shocked by a TV news report about arrest of some counterfeiters, showing one of the fake bills, which has the same LEGAL TENDER language as those from the back yard – and (iirc) destroys the tree. —Tamfang (talk) 06:24, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, laws on counterfeiting are pretty expansive -- typically it is a crime even to pass on counterfeit bills, even if you yourself were the victim of some schmuck who spent it at your hot dog stand. By now the intellectual property freaks probably have things at least as expansive for their overpriced purses and crap. But gold is, well, gold. How can people feel confident in their fiscal reserves if they have to wonder about what poor slave mined it out under armed guard in the Congo? It is, well, fungible. Though occasionally it is radioactive gold and hilarity ensues. [1] Wnt (talk) 22:59, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I’m not sure how this silly question got sidetracked onto the subject of mineral supply, but the amount of zinc, iron, gold, silver or $10 bills is not inflation. As per Inflation, it is a sustained increase in price levels over a period of time.DOR (HK) (talk) 08:43, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

What is a correct and not too long economic term that could take the place of inflation? The word inflation is wrong but you understand the analogy? One of the simplest things that can cause the sustained fall of money's purchasing power which is inflation is an increase in the supply of it. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:13, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

DOR_(HK) -- When a currency is based on a precious metal, and the supply of that metal suddenly increases due to a gold or silver rush, then that can absolutely cause inflation. We have an article on the "Price revolution" caused by Spanish importation of gold and silver in the 16th century. During the 19th century, when stable Western countries were usually on the gold standard, there was an overall long-term deflationary effect, briefly counteracted by various gold strikes... AnonMoos (talk) 17:27, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

See also Cross of Gold speech. Wnt (talk) 23:02, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Anglicizing New Testament names

Why are New Testament names Anglicized? Why is Yeshua translated as Jesus (in English and "Hay-seus" in Spanish)? Why are the names of Yeshua's Disciples Anglicized (except Judas, who was a "bad guy"). Finally, what would the correct (non-Anglicized) names of the Disciples be? 69.42.176.50 (talk) 17:23, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

The translation of names into other languages goes back to the writing of the bible itself, and carries on through every translation into every language. English is not special in this regard. The original New Testament was written mostly in Koine Greek, and the original authors used the name Ἰησοῦς Χριστός (transliterated Iesous Christos) and not the Aramaic words Jesus and is disciples would have spoken amongst themselves. Wikipedia has an article titled Names and titles of Jesus in the New Testament if you want to get deep into the weeds on this one. The notion of preserving the original pronunciation and spelling of a name, rather than translating it, is a relatively new concept; certainly not much older than a hundred years, which is why English language texts about historical figures tend to use English names for them, while modern figures we tend to preserve their name; that's why the Dutch king is named Willem-Alexander, whereas his great-great-grandfather is known in English as William III. The reason why this was done with names in the New Testament is because this is what has always been done, by every language, in all of history, until very recently. --Jayron32 17:39, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Also, regarding the last question, on the original names of his disciples (by whom I presume you mean the 12 Apostles), the original Aramaic and/or Hebrew names (where known) are listed in the first line of every Wikipedia article on them, for example Simon Peter was called ܫܸܡܥܘܿܢ ܟܹ݁ܐܦ݂ܵܐ or Shemayon Keppa (Keppa is related to Cephas, which is also sometimes used in some parts of the New Testament alongside Petros) Just go to each Wikipedia article, and each will tell you the original names, both the Aramaic name and the Koine Greek name. --Jayron32 17:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Awesome! Thanks. I should have known the information was already here! 69.42.176.50 (talk) 19:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)69.42.176.50 (talk) 19:07, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

You might know this but Old Testament names weren't immune, Elijah was Elias in some Bibles. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:07, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

And apparently Eliyahu in the transliteration of the original Hebrew. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:14, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Correct. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:31, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

To answer the first question, the names aren't Anglicized, they're Hellenized (because Greek seemed to the writers like the best medium for outreach), and Latinized a few centuries later, and subsequently used by people who were not interested in how Latin (let alone Greek or Aramaic) was pronounced back when. — What I find especially weird is that there apparently exist recent Bible translations (in e.g. Polynesian languages) in which the names used are based on English pronunciations adapted to local orthography. —Tamfang (talk) 06:13, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Why the worry just about the New Testament? The Old Testament has the same issues. Yitzchak->Isaac. Bilam->Balaam. Pinchas->Phineas. Yishaya->Isaiah. Iyov->Job. Avshalom->Absalom. Eisav->Esau. Yael->Jael. Kayin->Cain. Hevel->Abel. Achashverosh->Ahasuerus. Etc Etc. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

To what extent is marriage a public commitment?

When two people get married according to all the proper laws, how easy is it for members of the public to ascertain that they are in fact promising to make a life together? In other words, can a public figure (elected or just notorious) conceal a marriage, or the identity of their spouse? Let's start with UK, US, Canada, Australia. There is a British politician whose name escapes me; she tried to conceal her new wedding ring from a reporter, who asserted that he could just FOI it. Is that true? And there's self-proclaimed "dangerous faggot" Milo Yiannopoulos, who apparently got married to a man in Hawaii[2], but won't say who. Is that legally allowed? I thought the whole point was that marriage was a public commitment. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 23:44, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Historically, even though the Church would accept a marriage as valid purely on the basis of "well at least the husband said so", they still wanted a big heads up for them and everyone else. This site (dealing with American law) says they're supposed to be public record, though some courts may ask who you are and why you need the info. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:09, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Marriages in America, as with births and deaths, are public records, but the extent to which other parties can inquire about them is a matter of the individual states' laws. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:34, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

We often hear of some celebrity "marrying in secret", presumably to avoid the media turning up in droves and spoiling the event. Well, maybe the media wasn't informed, and maybe most of the person's family and friends were not invited, but nobody ever truly marries "in secret". There are always at least 5 people involved: 2 witnesses, a celebrant, and the 2 people marrying. Then, as BB says, the records of the marriage are public. (True, if you have no information that Celebrity X has married, you'd hardly be searching public records to find out, unless you had a special reason.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:34, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Follow-up: Maybe the phrase I need to query is "public record". If marriages are a matter of public record, then how does the public (i.e. the media) find out about them? I'm not interested in how they scoop the wedding ceremony for photos, but how at any point afterwards they ascertain that A really did marry B, and thus has X for a father-in-law and can hope for their children to inherit some of Z. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 15:56, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The rules for public records vary from place to place. In some plases, it's on a need-to-know basis. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:02, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

In California, there are two ways to get married, Public and Confidential. A confidential marriage does not require any witnesses, and only the married couple can obtain copies of the license. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 15:28, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

This story about Milo Yiannopoulos is fairly legit [3] and our article doesn't have the name. One problem in this case is that Yiannopoulos was actually opposing equal marriage recently, so conceivably the ceremony could turn out not to be a standard wedding and he might say he simply doesn't believe in that or something. It is still surprising to me that nobody in the media has managed to run down who "John" is. Wnt (talk) 11:23, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Some theories turn up on Google, but nothing confirmed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:26, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

As previously stated, laws on public records in the U.S. vary from state to state. In Pennsylvania, one needs only go to the prothonatary's office at the county courthouse and ask to see marriage records.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 21:41, 31 May 2018 (UTC)