Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 December 25

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December 25

Christmas Day moon eclipse

Was there a Christmas Day moon eclipse in 810?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:00, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

This might be the right place to ask in terms of historical records, but you might also ask at the science desk, where they can use astronomy tools to see exactly where the Earth, Moon, and Sun were on that day, although the change in calendars between the Julian and Gregorian may complicate things. StuRat (talk)

I asked also at the science desk. Thanks for hint. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:44, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I found it in The historie of Cambria, now called Wales: a part ... . Caradoc, of Llancarvan.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:48, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

The NASA eclipse website doesn't list one, though it does list a total eclipse of the moon on 14 December 810. It also says "Eclipses of the Moon can only occur during the Full Moon phase", so that seems to rule out December 25. --Antiquary (talk) 15:53, 25 December 2014 (UTC) I've only just noticed your comment about the Julian calendar, Stu. Doubtless that explains it. --Antiquary (talk) 15:59, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually, according to Conversion between Julian and Gregorian calendars 14 December 810 in the Julian calendar was 18 December 810 in the Gregorian calendar. Not a Christmas bullseye then, but very close. --Antiquary (talk) 16:09, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Hopefully my last revision here: the NASA website linked above uses the Julian calendar for all dates before 1582, so the eclipse really was on 14 December for everyone who witnessed it. --Antiquary (talk) 16:15, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Is it possible that:

A) Some places were using yet another calendar then ?

B) Christmas was observed on a different date in some places then ?

C) It fell within the "twelve days of Christmas" ? StuRat (talk) 17:47, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge it's No to all of the above. I've never heard of any calendar other than the Julian being used during the Middle Ages in Wales, or indeed in any other part of western Christendom; the date of Christmas was perfectly uncontroversial in Britain, whatever dispute there was over Easter; and the Twelve Days of Christmas begin at Christmas rather than ending then. I imagine the explanation is more simple: at some point in the transmission of this eclipse date to the Historie of Cambria the word "about" got left out. --Antiquary (talk) 18:29, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

There are average 2.4 moon eclipses a year a year, let's call it 2 since that excludes the ones under the percentage limit that people can see. So there should be an average of 183 years between eclipses on a specific day. For people of a specific point in the world out should be no more than 365 years on average. If half are blocked by clouds, it should be 730 years. No, let's call it 1.8 eclipses a year since anything less might not be casually noticed by people who don't have an almanac and don't use the "eclipses repeat every 18 years, 10 or 11 days and 8 hours later (depending on leap day count) rule" to look for it. But an average visible eclipse lasts about 3½ hours and Christmas nights are at least 15-16 hours at Europe, so there's at least 18½ hours of chances to be on Christmas. Take off some time since many eclipse types can't be seen near the horizon, more math and it shouldn't be more than 640 years between Christmas eclipses. It's certainly possible that Wales hasn't had one for 1204 years (or even 2000) so if that's the last then you're due. But no eclipses this winter, sorry. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:48, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Who is the audience in a Roman Catholic funeral mass?

I would assume it would just be the family members and close friends of the family with the deceased family member, who happens to be Catholic, going to be Catholic, or raised in a Catholic family, and who is also in good standing with canon law. Yet, I've seen popular portrayals of it, which seem to suggest a huge celebration of the death, with the men and women all dressed in black, and the women wearing veils. After the funeral service, the dead body would be carried by horse and buggy to the cemetery. That's the movie portrayal. In real life, are Catholic families really that big? Does the immediate family invite every single person related to the deceased person according to canon law (which may extend to third cousins)? Or is the Roman Catholic funeral mass a mass for the parishioners rather than a mass for a particular family? I think this is a Roman Catholic funeral mass. The room looks as spacious as a typical Catholic church, which may suggest that it's Catholic. Plus, one does the sign of the cross. 71.79.234.132 (talk) 15:57, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

The Catholic funerals I've attended have all been open to anyone who has known the deceased, which may involve parishioners if the deceased attended the church. (Which is just as well as my family isn't Catholic and neither am I) --TammyMoet (talk) 17:45, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

The only restriction on non-Catholics attending any mass is that they not take communion, a restriction which applies to lapsed and unconfessed Catholics with a sin on their conscience as well. (It does occasionally still happen, the priests don't have sin- or heretic-ometers.) The number of attendants will depend on the person. Veils are an old-fashioned custom related more to class and ethnicity than to any Christian sect. μηδείς (talk) 17:54, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I am not Catholic, but have been to both Catholic weddings and Catholic funerals. Those events are typically by invitation, either formal or verbal, that being up to the family. There's no requirement to be a Catholic, just that you be welcome there. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:29, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

So, is the Roman Catholic funeral mass traditionally, according to canon law, done in front of the whole congregation, or was it specially arranged as a private event? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 18:48, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

According to the article Helena (song)#Music video your video was shot in a presbyterian church in LA. The absence of plaster saints is a big clue that the church isn't RC. Don't confuse a funeral and a Requiem mass, which always involves communion and may or may not be attached to a funeral. The mass is usually open for all to attend, but the sacrament is only for Catholics. How strictly this is applied is in practice down to the individual priest. The funeral may or may not involve a mass, and can just as easily happen in a crematorium chapel as a church. The whole thing is down to the next of kin, their budget, and the expected attendance. Most funerals are private events which run in a public space (church/crem/mortuary chapel). There is an assumption that people don't generally go to funerals of other people they don't know, unless they're desperate for a beer and a ham sandwich. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:05, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I found your answer most helpful, Fiddlersmouth. I actually did confuse the funeral with the Requiem mass, probably because they both had to do with death and the celebration of death. Also, every time I see the word "Requiem", I think of Mozart's piece that goes by the same name. 71.79.234.132 (talk) 01:41, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

You won't get any food or drink at a funeral. μηδείς (talk) 23:53, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Technically, not at the ceremony itself, but it's normal for funerals in the UK (and elsewhere, I suspect) to be immediately followed by a funeral reception where ample food and drink is available for the family and friends. Ghmyrtle (talk) 00:02, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

That's often true in America as well. Typically not for everyone, just a few close relatives and friends, to commune and to talk about the deceased and whatever else. (Kind of like a mini-Shiva.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:16, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, if you scroll over my text you'll see I linked to the ham-sandwich mini-Shiva. μηδείς (talk) 01:44, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Your comment was still misleading and unhelpful. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:14, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Not only was my comment strictly correct, anyone who bothered to read the link would have gotten more information. I don't provide links as mere adornment. μηδείς (talk) 21:29, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Funeral and wake are not synonymous, as I'm sure you know. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:40, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

• Looking at the Catholic Encyclopedia and in consultation with my father who was trained by Jesuits, the mass is open to all with a few exceptions. The priest may forbid late entrance once the mass has begun. The mass may be closed or secret due to persecution, and disruptive parties may be expelled. (Personally, I have seen people turned away who arrived late.)
  

Historically, there was the expulsion of the catechumens which was the exclusion of those studying to join the church after the readings and sermon, but before the Eucharist (communion) which was considered a "mystery" in the classical sense. This is attested to by Augustine in the 5th century and by others before him, but fell out of use by the 800's, when almost all attendees were raised Catholic from birth.

Nowadays the only exclusion from taking communion is voluntary exclusion by the unshriven and exclusion at the discretion of the priest for the excommunicated, etc. Specifically for funerals, over 1,000 believers and not attended my sister's funeral mass, and only a dozen were at the graveside when my grandmother was buried, although the mass in her neighborhood church was full. μηδείς (talk) 02:37, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

• Born Catholic in the Philippines. Having just attended a funeral mass for a friend's father: it's open to anyone, regardless of background or religion. As for size, it depends on the person (as well as the wishes of the family). Usual size of funerals I've attended is around 150 to 200 people. Usual invitation is in the form of a general announcement that "so-and-so has died and funeral services will be somewhere at _____ on _____" (published in the local paper, local radio, and also in social media sites). Black clothing is not required, though it's traditional for relatives of the deceased. People sometimes also wear white. Black veils (mantillas) are not a funeral-only thing, they are worn on any Catholic mass, but it's usually older and really devout women who wear them nowadays. It's not a celebration by any means. It's normally very very quiet, with people speaking in hushed tones, aside from the mass itself or family members/friends/loved ones getting emotional every now and then. It's basically just like regular mass, except the sermon is tailored a bit more about the deceased's life/death, there are no happy songs, and there are eulogies. If you're not Catholic, you can just sit quietly when they do Catholic things. There is a procession to the cemetery by hearse (if it's not beside the church), final blessings, lowering of the coffin, then everyone goes home as workmen seal it up. Food is provided afterwards usually (especially if the services extend past lunch), but most people forgo it, aside from immediate relatives. Also like everything else Catholic, it's far less strict than you think it is. At least it isn't here anyway. It depends on who your pastor is.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 03:46, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
  • You say people wear white on funeral day in the Philippines. Seeing that the Philippines is near China, could the white part be a Chinese influence? In Chinese culture, white symbolizes death. When my parents saw toilet paper on trees, they immediately thought someone had died in the family; apparently, they weren't aware that they were in the United States, and the concept of toilet papering is just a prank in America. 71.79.234.132 (talk) 04:02, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

• Heh. But no, nothing to do with Chinese influence. White is nontraditional and it's not common at all, just underlining the fact that black isn't required. It's usually simply the family saying "black is too gloomy" or "[the deceased] wouldn't like us wearing black", etc. I don't know about the Catholic Chinese-Filipino community though. I've never been to a funeral of one (at least not those who still visibly uphold Chinese family traditions). -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 04:32, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Hell, you don't even have to be Catholic to get a funeral in a Catholic church. I knew a woman whose husband, Greek Orthodox his whole life (though decidedly not practicing towards the end of it) who received a funeral in the Eastern Rite Catholic church she attended. Her daughter's husband also had his funeral in that church (the daughter was also a parishioner). At the very least, the church does not worry about those who attend the funeral. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 12:55, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

This would normally require an episcopal dispensation, just as would a mixed marriage. μηδείς (talk) 21:27, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Certainly, in my parish, funerals typically appear in the parish bulletin or on the noticeboard, and parishioners typically attend funerals of people they barely knew, if at all. But the people attending such funerals are usually the older parishioners, who have more free time during the weekday. There is a feeling that the more people attending, praying for the deceased, the better, so parishioners especially try to attend the funerals of people unlikely to have a lot of other attenders. There is also a sense that everyone in the parish is part of a parish 'family', the community, and so attending their funeral even if you barely know them is like attending the funeral of a distant cousin you rarely saw. This does not, of course, extend to attending any private event set up by the family. 86.156.148.98 (talk) 21:06, 27 December 2014 (UTC)