Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2017 July 27
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July 27
editMusical term ?
editI've heard this technique used in both classical and contemporary music:
1) Music starts with a single instrument or vocal, then more add in, one at a time, until the full band/orchestra is playing.
2) The reverse occurs at the end, where the instruments and vocals drop off, one at a time, until only one is left.
Are there terms for these techniques ? StuRat (talk) 00:19, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- You can get a whole bunch of irresolute answers here, where the question was asked before. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:56, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
| Pedantic. |
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- The most famous example from classical music I can think of is Boléro. Wikipedia's article on the piece describes the build in excruciating detail, describing the entrance of each instrument and its variations on the theme. It doesn't, however, give it a name. In rock music, The Who used the technique frequently, perhaps best exemplified by the song "Baba O'Riley", which builds 1-2 instruments at a time: Lowrey Organ loop, then bass and drums, then piano, then vocals, then electric guitar.[1]. Again, still not sure of the name of the technique. --Jayron32 11:23, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- This book calls it layering, and uses "Baba O'Riley" as the instructive example. --Jayron32 11:31, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- This question is strictly about "form" and not about "instrumentation"; and should not be confused with the latter. Ravel's "Bolero" is not an example of the OP's question, as it simply is an "experiment in orchestration" by repeating the same melody over again using different instruments. Although it may have little to do with "layer-adding" (similar to "Baba O'Riley"), it does not then reverse the process as it began, as "Bolero" ends in full "Tutti" (see Op's #2). There is no technical term for this process; however, within the link provided above, a poster comes close: "terraced entrances". But this does not explain the process in reverse. That form would be called a "mirror effect"; where as: the musical piece starts and reaches a central point, reverses itself to the end in the exact opposite way in which it started. For example: (dynamics) ppp pp p mp mf f ff fff / fff ff f mf mp p pp ppp. The same would apply with melody, instrumentation, rhythm, etc. But overall, the elements that make up this intricate process does not a specific "umbrella" term as the musical composition is not that widely used throughout any genre or medium. Joseph Haydn attempted this in the last movement of his "Farewell" symphony Symphony No. 45 (Haydn), but did not begin the movement as he ended it; so that is out (but is a perfect example of how it should sound at the end) - and of course, thousands of composers / songwriters start millions of songs in the very way as the above are describing ("layering"); but not in a deliberate attempt to "mirror" the composition as you have asked. Hope this helps. Maineartists (talk) 13:42, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- If we relax things a bit and simply ask for mirror symmetry in music, there is a standard term: "cancrizans" (the backward version of a previously played melody; you'd have to fully say something like "ending in a cancrizans of the opening", an example being Schubert's Sonata D 959). The specific case the OP asks for is not very common, and so there is no term for it. Double sharp (talk) 14:55, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Correct re: melody. The "Crab Canon" by Bach being the most ingenius of them all. But this is getting away from the OP. Agreed: there is no term. Maineartists (talk) 15:09, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Crab Canon → Crab canon (is a redirect in order?) — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E465:CA4F:4607:5398 (talk) 20:06, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Maybe a crab cannon would be more fun? --Jayron32 14:45, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
- Crab Canon → Crab canon (is a redirect in order?) — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E465:CA4F:4607:5398 (talk) 20:06, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- I propose palindromic from the Greek roots palin (πάλιν; "again") and dromos (δρóμος; "way, direction"). Blooteuth (talk) 15:22, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- That would work for more general examples like Bach's Crab Canon (from The Musical Offering) and the minuet of Haydn's Symphony No. 47, but would need more modifiers to specifically refer to the OP's case. Double sharp (talk) 15:32, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- In literature, this is called chiasmus or chiastic structure (ABBA) but I don't know that I've ever heard those terms applied to music. --Jayron32 16:23, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- That would work for more general examples like Bach's Crab Canon (from The Musical Offering) and the minuet of Haydn's Symphony No. 47, but would need more modifiers to specifically refer to the OP's case. Double sharp (talk) 15:32, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Correct re: melody. The "Crab Canon" by Bach being the most ingenius of them all. But this is getting away from the OP. Agreed: there is no term. Maineartists (talk) 15:09, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- If we relax things a bit and simply ask for mirror symmetry in music, there is a standard term: "cancrizans" (the backward version of a previously played melody; you'd have to fully say something like "ending in a cancrizans of the opening", an example being Schubert's Sonata D 959). The specific case the OP asks for is not very common, and so there is no term for it. Double sharp (talk) 14:55, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- This question is strictly about "form" and not about "instrumentation"; and should not be confused with the latter. Ravel's "Bolero" is not an example of the OP's question, as it simply is an "experiment in orchestration" by repeating the same melody over again using different instruments. Although it may have little to do with "layer-adding" (similar to "Baba O'Riley"), it does not then reverse the process as it began, as "Bolero" ends in full "Tutti" (see Op's #2). There is no technical term for this process; however, within the link provided above, a poster comes close: "terraced entrances". But this does not explain the process in reverse. That form would be called a "mirror effect"; where as: the musical piece starts and reaches a central point, reverses itself to the end in the exact opposite way in which it started. For example: (dynamics) ppp pp p mp mf f ff fff / fff ff f mf mp p pp ppp. The same would apply with melody, instrumentation, rhythm, etc. But overall, the elements that make up this intricate process does not a specific "umbrella" term as the musical composition is not that widely used throughout any genre or medium. Joseph Haydn attempted this in the last movement of his "Farewell" symphony Symphony No. 45 (Haydn), but did not begin the movement as he ended it; so that is out (but is a perfect example of how it should sound at the end) - and of course, thousands of composers / songwriters start millions of songs in the very way as the above are describing ("layering"); but not in a deliberate attempt to "mirror" the composition as you have asked. Hope this helps. Maineartists (talk) 13:42, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- This book calls it layering, and uses "Baba O'Riley" as the instructive example. --Jayron32 11:31, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- For (1), the obvious link is fugue. But fugues then go off on their own complex way and typically do not end as per (2). -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:27, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- The first movement of Bartók's Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta is a fugue that reflects Stu's (1) + (2), and it is sometimes called "pyramid fugue" (the score would take a sort of a triangular shape if you printed it on one sheet with the first (and last) voices on the bottom line and so on, gradually "layering" on top of it (see above), and then removing one layer after the other again). Bartók's second Portrait for Violin and Orchestra (1908) has a musical pyramid built into it that lasts only about 12 seconds (see here). Yet "pyramid" hasn't gained a lot of traction either as a general term for the form Stu describes. ---Sluzzelin talk 09:00, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- Ooh. This is good. Maineartists (talk) 11:22, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- The first movement of Bartók's Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta is a fugue that reflects Stu's (1) + (2), and it is sometimes called "pyramid fugue" (the score would take a sort of a triangular shape if you printed it on one sheet with the first (and last) voices on the bottom line and so on, gradually "layering" on top of it (see above), and then removing one layer after the other again). Bartók's second Portrait for Violin and Orchestra (1908) has a musical pyramid built into it that lasts only about 12 seconds (see here). Yet "pyramid" hasn't gained a lot of traction either as a general term for the form Stu describes. ---Sluzzelin talk 09:00, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
Thanks all. StuRat (talk) 04:54, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
Song title
editI'm trying to recall the name of a song I haven't heard in years. I'm fairly sure it's by Gordon Lightfoot but I could be wrong. It's about an mother whose alcoholism causes her to loose custody of her child, which in turn, further exacerbates her drinking. As for the period, I'm thinking mid-seventies, but I could be wrong here too. Joefromrandb (talk) 17:08, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Circle of Steel, on Sundown. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 22:49, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks! It seemed to me like the name was on the tip of my tongue, but I don't think I would have come up with that on my own. Joefromrandb (talk) 05:48, 28 July 2017 (UTC)