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Gustav Mahler

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There are several important Gustav Mahler anniversaries in the offing, the most significant being 7 July 2010, the 150th anniversary of his birth. This article has been revised, extended and updated with a view to a FAC nomination and TFA on the anniversary date. Editors, notably Jonyungk, have been generous in making suggestions during the article's gestation. I would welcome any further comments and suggestions for improving the article. Brianboulton (talk) 17:09, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley I can see this is going to be tricky. I have read through twice and spotted hardly anything. A para by para review will follow over the next few days. Pending that I have two general points on consistency:

  • You need a policy decision on premiere/première. Either will do, but you should be consistent. There are also rogue "premiéres" (acute accent) in the third para of the Hamburg Stadttheater section and twice in note 9.
  • Director – another word where you are not internally consistent. I prefer "director" to "Director", but whichever you prefer I'd try to stick to one or t'other.
    • I agree with you. The two capital Ds in the lead have been amended. The only instance of "Director" that remains is in the job title "Musical and Choral Director". My view is that that should remain, perhaps in quotes, But I'm willing to be guided. Brianboulton (talk) 23:43, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow soonest. – Tim riley (talk) 20:28, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Lead
    • "Born in relatively humble circumstances": the adjective is not qualified in the main text, and is, I think, better for it. (Relative to what?)
  • Childhood
    • "gave his first public performance at the municipal theatre when he was 10 years old." Elsewhere you write the word "ten" out. Is this difference because it is an age? (I merely mention this, being far from sound on the numerals/letters matter.)
  • Student days
    • "Despite having a reputation as a bully and wife-beater, Bernhard Mahler was supportive of his son's ambitions for a music career". A bit of a non-sequitur. Might it be less of one if you removed "wife-beater", which is, after all, covered by "bully"?
    • "Mahler, sometimes rebellious, only avoided the same fate by writing a penitent letter to Hellmesberger" Some Eng Lang pundits insist that the "only" should come after "fate". Pedantry, but you may wish to consider.
    • "Mahler attended occasional lectures by Anton Bruckner and, while never the latter's formal pupil, was influenced by him." Do you need "the latter's" here? Wouldn't "his" be clear enough?
  • First appointments
    • "a dismal little job", which Mahler only accepted after Julius Epstein had told him…" Another "only": some might insist on "...accepted only..."
    • "The title concealed the reality that Mahler was subordinate to the theatre's Kapellmeister, Wilhelm Treiber, who disliked Mahler…" Perhaps just "disliked him"?
  • Prague and Leipzig
    • "He had early success presenting works from Mozart and Wagner" Appropriately Germanic preposition, but "by" would be more usual in English usage, nicht wahr?
    • " Tchaikovsky was present, along with the heads of various opera houses." I'm being really nit-picking, but it could be read as meaning that Tchaikovsky and the intendants were all in the same party. But perhaps they were. If not you might possibly replace "along with" with "as were" or the like.
  • Apprentice composer
    • "a 20-minute funeral march, or Todtenfeier, which later became the first movement of his Second Symphony." Did it become that movement without alteration or was it reworked into it?
      • Mahler was always revising his music. In view of the time gap between his writing the Todtenfeier and the completion of the Second Symphony, I'd say he did a lot of rewriting, but I don't have anything authoratitive on this. Brianboulton (talk) 00:28, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Royal Opera, Budapest
    • "A performance of Don Giovanni which won him praise from the composer Brahms who was present." Nobody is likely to be misled, but if one were determined to seek ambiguity this could be read as meaning that Brahms wrote Don Giovanni. I think you might risk dropping "the composer" here: Tchaikovsky manages well enough without "composer" earlier on.
  • Hamburg Stadttheater
    • "Pollini was prepared to give Mahler considerable leeway if the latter could provide commercial as well as artistic success." You could avoid "the latter" (which rather breaks flow, I find) by inverting the sentence on the lines of, "As long as Mahler could provide commercial as well as artistic success, Pollini was prepared to give him considerable leeway"
    • "This Mahler did in his first season…" but if you adopted the above suggestion you'd need to rephrase this, too. Disregard both of these by all means.
    • "under the influence of the Des Knaben Wunderhorn folk-poem collection…" Is it usual to include both the English and the German definite article in such a construction? Might it flow better without the "Des"?
    • "the Second Symphony was well-received on its premiere in Berlin". Is it worth mentioning who conducted?
  • Hofoper director
    • "Richard Strauss's controversial opera Salome in 1905 fell was rejected…" superfluous word
    • "Beethoven's Fidelio, Gluck's Iphigénie en Aulide and Mozart's Le nozze di Figaro ("The Marriage of Figaro")" If not translating the second, why the third?
    • "After conducting the Hofoper orchestra in a farewell concert performance…" This is not a suggestion but merely a question: I thought the opera orchestra with its symphonic hat on was the Vienna Philharmonic, but you distinguish between the two ensembles here and in the next section. Did the opera orchestra also give symphony concerts under its own name? Or have I simply got it wrong? (Later: see below - no need to answer this)
  • Mature composer
    • "Mahler conducted the premiere of his Fourth Symphony, in Munich, and was at the rostrum…" On it, rather than at it?
    • "The couple engaged in a lively disagreement" In the context of a romance I don't think I'd use the phrase "the couple" about the two of them at their first meeting.
    • "Alma soon became resentful that, on Mahler's insistence that there could only be one composer in the family, she had given up her music studies, and wrote in her diary: "How hard it is to be so mercilessly deprived of ... things closest to one's heart"." This might, perhaps, be easier on the eye if broken into two: "…studies. She wrote…"
    • "…the Seventh Symphony was deemed by Alma Mahler a succès d'estime, a critical rather than a popular success." It feels slightly patronising to use a foreign phrase and immediately translate it. Might you just omit the French version here?
  • Illness and death
    • "Alma, on doctors orders…" Possessive apostrophe needed?
    • "The Society aims to create a complete Critical Edition" Caps needed for Critical Edition?
  • Music
    • General observation by TR – When doing my first read-through I felt from time to time that the article was very plainly the work of an English writer. Copland and others notwithstanding the authorities quoted are preponderantly from the UK. But on my later para-by-para trawl I didn't find the English weighting particularly obvious. Anyway, if editors from other English-speaking countries wish to add quotes from Mahler scholars from their countries (Jack Diether comes to mind) they can always do so. A secondary point in this vein is that you mention e.g.Vladimír Karbusický as Czech, but don't say that, e.g. the great Deryck Cooke was English. Perhaps both or neither should have his national label attached.
      • On the question of sources I think it fair to point out that De la Grange is French (his books are translations into English and have been very slow in appearing). Karbusický is now a "musicologist" rather than a "Czech musicologist". Brianboulton (talk) 00:28, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Three creative periods
    • " For convenience, Deryck Cooke and other analysts have divided …" Does the "for convenience" make Cooke's division sound faintly spurious? Could it just be omitted?
    • "various song collections in which the Des Knaben Wunderhorn songs predominate." "the Des" – As above.
    • "the Rückert and Kindertotenlieder songs" I see the logic of the phrasing, but "..lieder songs…" broke the flow of my reading. I think it would read more smoothly if you had it as "the Rückert songs and Kindertotenlieder"
    • "while the songs have lost most of their folksiness" Is "folksiness" a quote? A touch slangy for a featured article if not, perhaps. Though I can't say any alternative leaps to mind.
  • Antecedents and influences
    • "From Beethoven, Liszt and (from a different musical tradition) Hector Berlioz" Berlioz gets his forename mentioned when the others don't? (In passing, didn't Berlioz consider himself in the Beethoven tradition, or am I having delusions again?)
  • Genre
    • "Except for his juvenilia, little of which has survived." Going into pedant-overdrive, this is plural and ought to be "…few of which have survived."
    • "Das Lied von der Erde, is a symphony in all but name—Mitchell categorises it as a "song and symphony", rejecting the "song-symphony" label which he describes as "pernicious and misleading". Mitchell no doubt knew what he meant by this, but I'm blest if I do.
  • Style
    • "Mahler believed that music should be all-embracing, hence his 1907 remark to Sibelius: "The symphony must be like the world. It must embrace everything."" This is a splendid quote, the impact of which is rather spoilt here by the repetition of "embracing … embrace". Might you abandon the first part of the sentence and have something like, "Mahler remarked in 1907 to Sibelius: "The symphony must be like the world. It must embrace everything.""
    • "Mahler's "amazing orchestration" which, the writer claims…" "Claims" always troubles me. The old purist view is that it means to assert one's rights or title etc (as in your footnote 4) and is not merely a synonym of "allege". I don't insist on this, but when used as the latter it also strikes some ears (including mine) as hinting at insincerity. Perhaps something like "…which, to Cooke, …"
  • Early responses, 1889–1911
    • "Mahler's unconventional percussion effects–a wooden mallet…" I believe the WP standard for such dashes is either an em-dash without spaces or an en-dash with spaces each side.
  • Relative neglect, 1911–50: (Point taken, but the "relative" weakens the title a bit. "Neglect" would not be overstating it, possibly.)
    • I think the heading has to stay, since several sources make the point that Mahler was never wholly neglected, only relative to the later popularity that came his way. Brianboulton (talk) 00:28, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Stokowski had given American premieres to the Eighth Symphony" "Premieres to" reads oddly. Perhaps "the American premieres of" would be preferable?
  • Notes
    • 5. "Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra which was comprised" "Was" needs to go. (I see this note answers the question I asked above about the Hofoper orch -v- VPO. Apologies.)
    • 9. "…at its Munich premiere, there were less than 1000 performers" This should be "fewer than".

Here endeth the epistle of Timothy. I'm sorry the comments are all on such tiny points, but they are all I can find. The article is such good stuff – well proportioned, widely-sourced, comprehensively referenced, and easy to read. – Tim riley (talk) 17:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jonyungk comments

edit

Lead

  • Gustav Mahler (7 July 1860 – 18 May 1911) was an Austrian late-Romantic composer and also one of the leading conductors of his generation. "Also" seems a little redundant.
  • While in his lifetime his status as a conductor was established beyond question, his own music only gained wide popularity in the latter part of the 20th century. Should "only" come before "in" instead of "gained" since it is referring to when Mahler's music became popular?
  • I agree with tim riley about "relatively humble"—the sentence would be stronger without "relatively".
  • Nevertheless, his innovative productions and insistence on the highest performance standards ensured his reputation as one of the greatest of opera-conductors ... You don't really need the hyphen in "opera-conductors".
  • Mahler's compositional output is relatively small—for much of his life composing was a part-time activity, secondary to conducting—and is confined to the genres of symphony and song. There may be no way out of this, but even though you may not mean it this way, having "compositional" and "composing" in the same sentence feels redundant.

Family background

  • In the following year Marie gave birth to the first of the couple's 14 children, a son Isidor, who died in infancy. Should there be a comma after "son" (you have one between "son" and "Gustav" in the following sentence)?

Childhood

  • Despite having a reputation as a bully and wife-beater,[2][5] Bernhard Mahler was supportive of his son's ambitions for a music career ... I disagree with tim riley about this sentence—it's possible to be a bully without being a wife-beater, so having both in the same sentence does not seem redundant to me.

Student days

  • Overall this section has improved considerably since the last time I saw it.
  • As a student, Wolf was unable to submit to the strict disciplines of the Conservatory and was expelled, while Mahler, sometimes rebellious, only avoided the same fate by writing a penitent letter to Hellmesberger.[11] I agree with tim riley that "only" should be moved to precede "by", not "avoided".

First appointments

  • Despite poor relations with the orchestra, Mahler brought five new operas to the theatre, including Bizet's Carmen, and won over the press who had initially been hostile to him.[20] Should "who" actually be "that" or "which"? Also, "initially" still seems redundant, but this might be just me.
  • In January 1984 the distinguished conductor Hans von Bülow gave two concerts in Kassel. Hoping to escape from his job in the theatre, Mahler unsuccessfully sought a post as Bülow's assistant. Did Mahler seek to be Bülow's assistant in Kassel or in the town where Bülow normally appeared? Bülow was in Kassel for only a short time, so applying for a job as his assistant there does not make sense. Clarifying this point would help.
    • This point has clearly troubled you, since you raised it earlier on the talkpage. I have now made it clear that Bulow visited Kassel to give two concerts, and that Mahler sought to escape from Kassel by applying to be Bulow's permanent assistant. I don't think I can make it clearer than that. Brianboulton (talk) 15:51, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Prague and Leipzig

  • In April 1886 Mahler left Prague to take up his post at the Neues Stadttheater in Leipzig, where rivalry with his senior colleague Arthur Nikisch began at once, primarily over who should conduct the theatre's new production of Wagner's Ring cycle. This sentence might read better broken into two.
  • However, this did not make him popular with the orchestra who resented his dictatorial manner, although Mahler had the support of the theatre's manager, Max Staegemann.[24] You don't really need "however" here.
  • At around this time Mahler discovered the German folk-poem collection Des Knaben Wunderhorn, which would dominate much of his compositional output during the following twelve years.[24][n 2] Are you going to spell out two-digit numbers or write them out?

Apprentice composer

Royal Opera, Budapest

  • In the opera house the conservative faction had until recently been dominant, led by the music director Sandor Erkel who had maintained a limited repertory of historical and folklore opera. There may not be a way around this situation, but this sentence reads a little lumpy.

Hamburg stadttheater

  • Bülow, who had snubbed Mahler in Kassel, had come to admire the younger man's conducting style, and on Bülow's death in 1894 Mahler took over the direction of the concerts.[34] Nothing wrong with this sentence per se, but the fact that Bülow snubbed him was not stated earlier, so it comes as a surprise here. I had assumed on reading the earlier passage that Bülow had simply not hired him as an assistant.
    • I've altered "snubbed" to "spurned". There is a story behind this, which I included in an earlier draft but then withdrew on the grounds of saving space. Basically, Bulow didn't reply to Mahler's request but forwarded his letter of application to Treiber at the theatre - unkind, to say the least. But Mahler seems to have forgiven him.Brianboulton (talk) 15:51, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, Mahler refused further similar invitations as he was anxious to reserve his summers for composing.[34] "Further similar" feels redundant—one or the other would probably do.
  • Mahler conducted a revised version of his First Symphony; still in its original five-movement form, it was presented as a Tondichtung (tone poem) under the descriptive name "Titan".[41][44] When I read this, I wonder, "Why Titan?" Would it be worth mentioning that the title came from the Jean Paul work of the same name, which might have influenced Mahler during the composition of the First Symphony? Not an urgent necessity, especially as you probably don't want to add much at this stage. Just a thought.
    • The assumption that Mahler was influenced by Jean Paul's novel is questioned by Mitchell, who quotes Natalie Bauer-Lechner's view that "all that [Mahler] had in mind was a powerfully heroic individual", and that there was no specific connection to Jean Paul's hero. Mitchell then conducts a debate on the issue, quoting other opinions and concluding that "the truth probably rests somewhere in the middle". All this is in Mitchell's Vol II, pp. 225-27, but I think is material for the Symphony No. 1 article rather than this one. Brianboulton (talk) 15:51, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • He resolved the problem of the bar that existed against the appointment of a Jew to this post by a pragmatic conversion to Roman Catholicism in February 1897.[48] The first part of this sentence reads a little lumpy—are both "the problem" and "the bar" necessary here?

Hotoper director

  • As he waited for the Emperor's confirmation of his directorship, Mahler shared duties as a resident conductor with Joseph Hellmesberger Jr (son of the former Conservatory director) and with Hans Richter, an internationally renowned interpreter of Wagner. You don't need the "with" immediately before "Hans Richter".
  • In ten years, Mahler had brought new life to the opera house and cleared its debts,[66] but had won few friends—it was said that he treated his musicians in the way a lion tamer treated his animals.[67] Again, are you writing out two-digit numbers or using numbers?

Philharmonic concerts

  • In fact, attendances rose sharply in Mahler's first season, but members of the orchestra were particularly resentful of his habit of re-scoring acknowledged masterpieces,[52] and of his scheduling of extra rehearsals for works with which they were thoroughly familiar. You've rejuggled this sentence since the last time I read it, and it reads better now. Should the footnote go at the end of the sentence, or is there another footnote coming to cover the last part of the sentence?

New York

Illness and death

  • Alma, on doctors orders, was absent, but among the mourners at a relatively pomp-free funeral were Arnold Schoenberg (whose wreath described Mahler as "the holy Gustav Mahler"), Bruno Walter, the stage designer Alfred Roller ... Why reintroduce Roller at this point? We alread know who he is.

Relative neglect, 1911-1950

  • However, much American critical reaction in the 1920s was negative, despite a spirited effort by the young composer Aaron Copland to present Mahler as a progressive, thirty years ahead ... Should this read "thirty" or "30"?
  • I'm surprised there is no mention of Adrian Boult's efforts to perform Mahler's works during this time, including a 1947 recording of the Third Symphony.
    • I need to think about this. The temptation is to include more details of premieres, particularly those in the UK (the Third wasn't publicly performed here until 1961!) but I am conscious of the article's length, and will have to find a very economical form of wording if this is to be included. Brianboulton (talk) 15:51, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • If I may stick an oar in at this point, I'd be delighted to see Boult's pioneering work cited, if it were not that I think you should be cautious about citing more UK examples for fear of biasing the article to the British viewpoint overmuch. (Apologies for barging in here.) - Tim riley (talk) 18:49, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tim riley had already addressed the rest of my concerns with the music section. Ovreall, this article reads extremely well. Excellent work! Jonyungk (talk) 22:54, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ruhrfisch comments
  • I am reading this and checking the German as requested. I agree that it makes sense to translate the names of Mahler's works from German to English, but not the rest (since the article is about Mahler).
  • This is a bit awkward as written The pedlar's son Bernhard Mahler, the composer's father, elevated himself to the ranks of the petite bourgeoisie as a coachman and later an innkeeper.[3] would something like The composer's father Bernhard Mahler, who was a pedlar's son, elevated himself to the ranks of the petite bourgeoisie as a coachman and later an innkeeper.[3] flow better?
    • We have already mentioned that Mahler's grandmother was a street pedlar, so your suggestion doesn't really work. I have slightly tweaked the sentence in the hope of getting a better flow. Brianboulton (talk) 22:17, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I checked and Das klagende Lied is translated here as "The Song of Lament", but in the article on it the translation is "The Song of Lamentation", which also works. The two articles should probably be consistent in their translation of the title.
  • After a week's trial at the Royal Theatre in the Prussian town of Kassel, Mahler became the theatre's "Musical and Choral Director" from August 1883.[19] I would say Kassel is a Hessian town much more than a Prussian one, even if it was politically part of Prussia at the time as part of Hesse-Nassau. Perhaps in the Hessian town of Kassel, then part of Prussia, Mahler became... or in the town of Kassel in the Prussian province of Hesse-Nassau, Mahler became... or am I just too picky?
  • Would it make sense to link to the proper emperor in As he waited for the Emperor's confirmation of his directorship, Mahler shared duties as a resident conductor ...?
  • If the works of others are not translated, this is not consistent He made his initial mark in May 1897 with much-praised performances of Wagner's Lohengrin and Mozart's Die Zauberflöte ("The Magic Flute").[53]
  • Same possible issue with The collaboration between Mahler and Roller created more than 20 new and celebrated productions of, among other operas, Beethoven's Fidelio, Gluck's Iphigénie en Aulide and Mozart's Le nozze di Figaro ("The Marriage of Figaro").[58][62]
  • Rachitic is not a word I knew - should it be linked in Burckhard called Mahler "that rachitic degenerate Jew", unworthy for such a good-looking girl of good family.[84]?
  • Needs a translation (The Song of the Earth) Here, using a text by Hans Bethge based on ancient Chinese poems, he composed Das Lied von der Erde.[89]
  • Translation needed (The Heavenly Life) Themes from the Wunderhorn song "Das himmlische Leben", composed in 1892, became a key element in the Third Symphony completed in 1896;...
  • Ditto with "Des Antonius von Padua Fischpredigt" (The Sermon of Anthony of Padua to the Fish) or "Anthony of Paudua's Sermon to the Fish"
  • Urlicht is "Primal Light" in Another Wunderhorn setting from 1892, "Urlicht", is ...
  • I would wikilink Ländler in ...and frequent recourse to popular music and dance forms such as the ländler and the waltz.[123]
  • Another translation: Erinnerung is usally translated as Memory (could also be Recall - the movie Total Recall was "Die Totale Erinnerung") in Mahler first employed the device in an early song, "Erinnerung" (c.1880), and thereafter used it freely in his symphonies.

OK, that's it. I made some copyedits as I went along, mostly typos, but in a few places I made translations consistent with those in the articles. I am not 100% sure if Kindertotenlieder should be "Songs on the Death of Children" or "Songs on the Deaths of Children" - I followed the article (Death) but it might be better to ask a native speaker of German. Very nicely done, let me know if you have other questions or need more comments, and when this is at FAC. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:46, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your help with the German, and for the other suggestions all largely implemented. The article is going to stay at Peer Review for a while longer in the hope of a few more comments and suggestions. Brianboulton (talk) 22:17, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to help - I just copied the link to Ländler, hence the capital. On second thought I would be OK with the English names of the Mozart operas since they are generally known by those names, but it is your call. It reads really well, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:12, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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