Wikipedia:Peer review/Badnjak/archive1

Badnjak

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article (currently at GA status) for peer review because I think it is on the right track toward a FAC, and would like to expose it to closer scrutiny from other editors. I'm aware of the objection that there should be more images in it, but hopefully this is going to be fixed. So, the focus is now on the text; I also hope that this nomination might attract attention from an experienced (and willing) editor to further polish the article's prose.

Thanks, VVVladimir (talk) 21:12, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Casliber

• Fascinating read. I am tweaking the prose a bit as I go, so revert me if I inadvertently change the meaning. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:35, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• Is the Montenegrin Littoral known better by another name? I have never heard of it...

I'm glad you like the article, thanks! Your edits are good, no meaning changed. I don't know if there is another name for Montenegrin Littoral in English. It is translation of Serbian Crnogorsko primorje. VVVladimir (talk) 16:51, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• This - The ideal environment to fully carry out these customs is the traditional multi-generation country household. - sounds like a how-to manual, I will think of some way this can be worded better. Sorry I have been busy. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:54, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

No problem, there's no hurry :) VVVladimir (talk) 17:55, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

What I meant by that sentence: 1) vicinity and accessibility of woods; 2) presence of the traditional fireplace ognjište in the house; absence of that is the biggest obstacle to perform these customs (in fact, even in villages, only those who are really keen to preserve traditional objects and customs have that fireplace today - examples 1, 2, and 3); 3) though the 'multi-generation household' is not quite necessary to perform the customs physically, they are somewhat incomplete without the presence of several generations of the family. VVVladimir (talk) 17:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I understand. Concept is good, some of these may need some tweaking but nothing jumps up. I will ask some others to have a look too. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:23, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I just wanted to expand a bit more on that :) VVVladimir (talk)

• The badnjak ceremony, originally performed only within the family, has gained a public dimension, too. - is unusually worded. I know what you mean this time but an alternative doesn't immediately come to mind. I will think more.

• Each particular celebration, however, has its own specific traits which reflect traditions of the local community, and other local factors - what are the other local factors? Just hangs there and is a bit vague. Can it be clarified? Or is it just better removed?

The factors like what prominent people in the community think how some details of the celebration should be performed, etc. No need to expand on that, I removed it.

As for the edit summary ("parallelly"?), Webster's Third New International Dictionary says: parallelly = in a parallel manner. Of course, any further prose polishing is very welcome. VVVladimir (talk) 16:09, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Malleus Fatuorum

• I'm not entirely sure what this means: "... the log is symbolically represented by several leaved oak twigs that can be bought at marketplaces or distributed in churches." I'm taking it to mean a bunch of oak twigs some of which still have leaves on them? Feels a bit vague to me though. Would two twigs be enough? One? Do all of the twigs have to have leaves on them? Are the bunches of twigs bound together in any particular way? Do they have to come from the same tree?

• "The Serbian Orthodox Church uses the Julian calendar, according to which Christmas Eve (December 24) corresponds to January 6 of the following year on the Gregorian calendar." My first impression on reading that was "So what?" The significance of that correspondence needs to be explained.

Thanks for your edits and questions. Since "a picture is worth a thousand words", here are couple examples of those oak twigs: 1, 2. I've added the adjective 'leaved', because the term 'twig' represents a small branch usually without its leaves, and the twigs that represent the badnjak should have leaves on them. It is usually one bunch of twigs that grew together on the tree, with the stem that connects them as a unit. Example 1 shows a common arrangement, where such a unit of oak twigs is bound together with twigs of European Cornel and several stalks of straw. I didn't intend to expand on this, but it might be OK to add something to that effect. On the photograph in the article one can see oak trees at a market; the saleswoman is there to cut a bunch of twigs for her customer.

I think that first picture would be worth adding to the article, as it certainly made things clearer for me. The caption could explain its arrangement and construction, as you've just done here. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:24, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

It would be excellent if the picture could be used in the article, but I'm not sure that its copyright status is appropriate. VVVladimir (talk) 14:30, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

When I wrote to add something to that effect, I meant text.VVVladimir (talk)

It would be worth contacting zelear to see if (s)he'd be prepared to release the image under a CC licence. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I've no experience in that, could it be done through some Wikipedia channel? VVVladimir (talk) 14:56, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Not that I know of. You'd have to do it directly through Photobucket. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:29, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Only several Orthodox Churches, including The Serbian Orthodox Church, use the Julian calendar, so I wanted to give the precise timing of the celebration. While for most of the world Christmas Eve falls on December 24, for the Serbs it falls on January 6 (according to the Gregorian calender). Also, it's not necessary that all readers know when, or even what, Christmas Eve is at all. But if you think that that sentence is superfluous, it's no problem to remove it.

I think that's a really important point that needs to be made in the lead, and elaborated on a little later. With the article's wikilinks to Christmas Eve and Christmas Day—which almost everyone from the Western Church will understand to be December24/25—it's presently a bit misleading. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:23, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

If you have any other questions, I'll be glad to answer them. VVVladimir (talk) 13:31, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

• "The origin of the custom is explained by events surrounding the Nativity of Jesus Christ." Need to either drop this from the lead or give a brief overview of what those events were. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I've started to work on that... VVVladimir (talk) 14:46, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Might be an improvement, though probably some more should be done in the lead. VVVladimir (talk) 15:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

How do you find the lead now? VVVladimir (talk) 16:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that's a big improvement. I'd be inclined to drop the opening sentence of the second paragraph now. I don't think we need "The origin of the tradition is explained by events surrounding the Nativity of Jesus Christ" any more. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:48, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Removed that, and added a couple of details I think should be mentioned in the lead. VVVladimir (talk) 17:10, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

• To get through FAC, all of the images will need to have alt text. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:44, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I've added it myself. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:00, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. VVVladimir (talk) 15:30, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

• I think that in some places there's maybe a little too much detail. For instance here: "Upon entering the house the man approaches the fireplace, called ognjište ([ˈoɡɲiːʃte])." Is it really important that we know what the fireplace is called in Serbian? If it is, then why? --Malleus Fatuorum 22:47, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Ognjište is the type of open fireplace characteristic for the Balkans, accompanied with characteristic utensils. Mentioning the name is not essential for the article, but I think that an explanation that it is similar to a campfire is important, because the logs may be rather long and could not be properly placed on the fireplace if it were enclosed. VVVladimir (talk) 15:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

• I don't quite get this bit: "This method is preferred over the cutting down, because the resulting badnjak has a so-called 'beard', the part of the trunk at which it broke off from the base of the tree." The method is preferred because it results in the badnjak having a "beard"? Why is a "beard" so sought after? --Malleus Fatuorum 16:59, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Sources that are available to me just state that the "beard" is preferred on the badnjak (but this applies only to some regions, where the pulling and twisting is custom), and don't explain why. The meaning of the "beard" could be guessed from the facts that the badnjak is regarded as an old mail personage (see "Interpretation), and the thicker end where it broke off is called its head. It enhances the log's comparison with an old man. It seems that the "beard" thing is of a very ancient origin. VVVladimir (talk)

I suppose you are familiar with the jaggedness of the place at which a raw wood snapped, with those protruding fibers that could be compared with a beard. VVVladimir (talk)

• I'm not sure I quite follow what's being said in the third paragraph of Bringing in and burning, which begins "In 19th-century Herzegovina ...". Is everything in that paragraph relevant only to Herzegovina, or just the bit about bringing in the logs on oxen? The sentence "The badnjak should not be jumped over or trodden upon" just seems to come like a bolt out of the blue as well. Is that a general custom, or just in Herzegovina? I think it needs a slight rewrite in any case, to avoid the "how-to" manual imperative. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:50, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The sentence "The logs were unloaded and the oxen driven out through the back door" ends what is relevant only to Herzegovina. VVVladimir (talk) 19:45, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Is the bolt eliminated now, at least partly? I included the Herzegovina case with the preceding paragraph (to which it thematically belongs), expanded on the straw and made a paragraph from that, and added to "The badnjak should not be..." and made a paragraph from that too. As for the imperative, these are those folk rules on what is a bad thing to do, which should be avoided in order not to draw bad luck or some revenge from supernatural forces on oneself. VVVladimir (talk) 14:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the article is shaping up nicely now, and I've got no further comments for this review. I also think that with a final copy edit run through it's just about ready for FAC. There's always going to be some criticism at FAC, that's the nature of the beast, but I'd be very surprised if anything came up that couldn't be pretty easily fixed. All in all this is fine piece of work that you have every right to feel pleased with. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:30, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Malleus, for your magnificent copy-editing. VVVladimir (talk) 16:45, 3 September 2009 (UTC)