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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Segundo Romance/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 23:09, 24 December 2017 [1].

Segundo Romance

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Nominator(s): Erick (talk) 15:02, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

After getting both Romance (Luis Miguel album) and Romances (Luis Miguel album) FA, I've been wanting to get this article FA as well for a long time but never had the motivation until. The article was promoted GA in 2014 and recently received a peer review and a copy-edit (courtesy of GOCE). This article follows a similar structure to the other two FA articles mentioned above. This is the second of the four bolero albums that Luis Miguel released and I'm very fond of as I am with the other two. Erick (talk) 15:02, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

@Nikkimaria: Thanks for catching that, I have addressed it promptly. Erick (talk) 02:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Aoba47
  • For this part (Segundo Reomance comprises cover versions of boleros (Latin ballads),), I would recommend linking “Latin” to “Latin music (genre)” for clarity.
  • In the same sentence, change “Reomance” to “Romance” as it is a spelling error.
  • The structure of the following part (Four singles were released: "El Día Que Me Quieras" and "La Media Vuelta", which reached the top of the Billboard Hot Latin Songs chart in the United States, and "Todo y Nada" and “Delirio”.) is a little off to me. I would put the chart placement for the first two singles in a separate sentence following this rather than putting everything in a single sentence. I would suggest revising this portion to read and flow better as a whole.
  • In the same sentence, link El Día Que Me Quieras (song)
  • I was a little confused by this sentence (Like its predecessor, the album helped continue the popularity of boleros.). Where did the album help to continue the genre’s popularity? World-wide? Clarification is necessary here.
  • In the infobox, you have Latin ballad and bolero as two separate genres, but in the lead, you include “Latin ballads” as a translation for boleros. This is a little confusing.
  • For this sentence (Miguel excluded one track, "Lo Mejor de Mí", composed by Rudy Pérez, because he felt it would be more proper to perform it as a ballad for his next album rather than a bolero.), change “rather than a bolero” to “rather than as a bolero”.
  • I am a little confused by the insertion of this part (slow ballads "endowed with romantic lyrics”). Is this a definition of boleros in general or a critics’ take on Miguel’s interpretation of boleros? If it is a definition, then I am not sure why it is not connected to the first instance of bolero in the body of the article. If it is from a critic’s review, then you will need to attribute it and make it more defined.
  • For the audio sample, you do not need to include the artist’s name in the title.
  • For this sentence (All three singles reached number one in Mexico.), could you provide a wiki link to the actual chart in Mexico?
  • I would recommend providing more structure to the “Critical reception” section. Right now, it appears more like a list of quotes from critics without any real direction.
  • I would imagine that a “Release history” section and chart is necessary for this article.

Great work with this article. Once my comments are addressed, I will support this for promotion. Aoba47 (talk) 18:33, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Aoba47, couple of things. Since sources refer to this album as a bolero album, I've removed Latin ballads from the infobox and linked it instead on the lead. I took your advice about the general definition of boleros and moved it to the background section. I fixed the structure on the lead as well regarding the singles. For the popularity of boleros, I worded it to similarly to Romance (Luis Miguel album)#Influence and legacy as sources indicate Miguel helped the growing trended that he started with Romance. The reviews on this album are quite short (some of them having only one sentence or two(!)). So what I did was cut down the quotations and carefully avoided paraphrasing. The source for the Mexican songs chart is apparently UPI according to the link, an organization I am not familiar with. I honestly don't see the need for a release section since there wasn't a deluxe edition or anything like that for the album. Erick (talk) 23:38, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for addressing my comments. I understand your point on the release information, and I agree that it is best to keep the article the way it is on that front as there was not particularly special on the release as a whole. Please let me know if you have addressed everything else and I will support this for promotion. Aoba47 (talk) 23:53, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Aoba47: I've removed mentions of the songs being #1 in Mexico as I have no way of knowing how reliable UPI is and the songs predate Monitor Latino. Anything else I might be missing? Erick (talk) 01:18, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose Comments by Finetooth

Looks good. I have a small number of questions and suggestions related mainly to prose and style issues.
Singles
  • The caption for the 22-second sample ends with "The opening of the track features a "romantic accordion" being played with AllMusic critic Jose F. Promis commenting that it sets the "tone for the rest of the set". I would replace the awkward "with plus -ing" construction. Suggestion: The track's opening, which features a "romantic accordion", sets the "tone for the rest of the set", according to AllMusic critic Jose F. Promis.
Critical reception
  • ¶1 "According to Promis, the album "which further established Miguel as a first-rate balladeer"." - This is not a complete sentence. Delete "which" and just use the rest of the quote?
  • ¶1 "...he praised Miguel's "scrumptious, sophisti-pop take of "Nosotros" and "Delirio"." - The Manual of Style advises against links inside a direct quotation. Perhaps you can paraphrase and move the sophisti-pop link outside the quote.
  • ¶1 If you keep the quote as is, it will still have a minor punctuation problem that can be solved by using single quotation marks around 'Nosotro' and 'Delirio' to avoid confusion with the outer set of quotation marks.
References
  • Some of the citation titles use title case, while others use sentence case. Citation 61 uses caps for the initial letter of every word. It's best to choose either sentence case or title case and use it consistently throughout. Nitpicky, I know.
General
  • Alt text looks OK.
  • Citation 60 returns a 404 error, and the archive-url goes to a page in Dutch that seems unreadable.
  • The dab checker finds no problems.
  • I unlinked one duplink. The checker found no others.
@Finetooth: Thanks for the feedback Finetooth. Looks like Ed Morales's book was removed from Google Books so I've just removed the url and accessdate and will use the page number for verification purposes. For the references with sentence cases, it is mainly due to how capitalization rules in Spanish is different from English regarding titles (only the first letter of the first word and proper nouns are capitalized). Of course, if you want me to use the English cap rules for those references, I don't mind. Other than that, I believe I have addressed everything that you brought up. Erick (talk) 15:27, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Magiciandude: I see what you mean about the Spanish caps. MOS:CONFORM recommends internal consistency but allows exceptions for any typographical changes that might alter the original meaning. I'd leave the Spanish caps as they are, but I'd make sure that all the English ones are in sentence case as in "Luis Miguel grows up and moves on with his latest albums" for citation 61. Does that make sense? Finetooth (talk) 17:51, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In looking at the citations again, I noticed some unhyphenated ISBNs in the reference section (citations 4, 18, 53, and 60). A converter lives here. It's a two-step process. Enter the unhyphenated 13-digit ISBN to convert it to a 10-digit ISBN, then enter the 10-digit ISBN to convert it to a 13-digit ISBN with hyphens. Finetooth (talk) 17:51, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Finetooth: I think I understand what you're saying, so I've amended all titles of English-language articles to use the proper capitalization and fixed the ISBNs. If it's not what you meant, please let me know so I can further amend it if necessary. Thanks! Erick (talk) 06:21, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • My explanation was a bit murky, and so are the guidelines. I tweaked a few of the English-language newspaper citations a bit more to make them all sentence case, just like the Spanish-language ones. That might be as close to consistent as we can get. The ISBNs now look fine. I'm switching to support on prose, as noted above. Finetooth (talk) 17:36, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Richard3120
  • "It earned several awards, including the Grammy Award for Best Latin Pop Performance" – I think "won" is a simpler and better choice of word than "earned".
  • "Despite the success, Miguel did not release another album of boleros; instead, he recorded Aries" – well, yes he did release another album of boleros (several, in fact)... just not immediately. This needs to be rephrased as something like "Despite its success, Miguel did not immediately release another album of boleros as the follow-up".
  • "Four months later, he confirmed that he would begin recording another collection of classic boleros..." – four months later than what? Do you mean four months after the release of Ariel?
  • "Manzanero helped with arrangements and song selection; Calderón was involved with the string section and Cibrian with music direction" – the semi-colon could be replaced simply by a comma here.
  • "Miguel excluded one track, "Lo Mejor de Mí", composed by Rudy Pérez, because he felt it would be more proper to perform it as a ballad for his next album rather than as a bolero" – as it stands, this doesn't convey the fact that "Lo Mejor de Mí" was recorded as part of the same sessions for Segundo Romance, but ultimately Miguel decided to hold the track back for his next album.
  • "Within two days, the album sold over one million copies" – is this worldwide, or just in the U.S.?
  • "In Mexico, it was certified quintuple platinum for shipping 1.25 million copies" – as the rest of this paragraph is discussing the album's performance in the U.S. I think this sentence should be moved to the next paragraph which talks about the album's performance in Latin America, and should follow the opening sentence "The album was also successful in Spanish-speaking countries".
  • "Segundo Romance was followed by two more bolero albums: Romances (1997) and Mis Romances (2001). In 1998, all three albums were compiled on Todos Los Romances..." – as these two sentences stand, on first glance it looks like Segundo Romance, Romances and Mis Romances were the three albums compiled on Todos Los Romances, whereas of course it should be Romance, Segundo Romance and Romances... this needs to be clarified.

I'll have another look and see if I spot anything else. Richard3120 (talk) 00:21, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Richard3120: Thanks for your comments. I believe I have addressed your comments except for one. I'm not clear what you're asking for on the sentence regarding the exclusion of "Lo Mejor de Mí". A rewrite or a removal? Erick (talk) 01:31, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Magiciandude: just a rewrite for clarification – was "Lo Mejor de Mí" recorded at the same time as the rest of the album, but Miguel then decided to hold it back for his next album? Or did he consider recording the song for inclusion on Segundo Romance, but ultimately decided not to record it then as a bolero, but later on as a ballad?
The rest is fine apart from it currently saying "four months after the Aries" instead of "four months after the release of Aries". Otherwise, I think it's looking good – well done. Richard3120 (talk) 14:49, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
According to an article on El Informador, it was supposed to be part of Segundo Romance but decided to hold back. So it's definitely the latter. Any suggestions for the sentence? Erick (talk) 15:20, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"The song "Lo Mejor de Mí", composed by Rudy Pérez, was considered for inclusion on the album, but Miguel decided against recording it as he felt the song would work better as a ballad for his next album, rather than as a bolero". Richard3120 (talk) 15:41, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Richard3120:, yep, that's a very good one. I've amended the sentence to the suggested one. Thanks! Erick (talk) 15:51, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Richard3120: It's been a week since my last comment, have I resolved everything? Erick (talk) 14:10, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies Erick, I got sidetracked with other things... yes, it all looks good to me now. Good luck with the FAN. Richard3120 (talk) 15:19, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

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  • Ref 2: Can you clarify the nature of the source "Americas (English Edition)"? Is it a print journal? If so the title should be italicized.
  • Ref 45: Who is the publisher? "Durango.net" is the website name, but who publishes it?
  • As a general point, with major publications such as the New York Times it's not necessary to add the publishing company, e.g. "The New York Times Company" as this creates unnecessary clutter. Not a point worth addressing in this nomination, but worth thinking about considering in future.

Subject to the above, sources (mainly in foreign languages) appear to be appropriate to the subject and are consistently formatted. Brianboulton (talk) 19:32, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Brianboulton: I've added the publisher for Americas per the article, replaced Durango.net with a book as the website appears to be self-published and there's a lack of mentions of it. Erick (talk) 16:15, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The tables in this article don't appear to comply with MOS:DTT. (Please {{ping}} me if you have any questions; I'm not watching this page.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:06, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@WhatamIdoing: I am confused by what you mean on the tables. Could you be more specific please? Erick (talk) 12:51, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
To make an WP:ACCESSible table, the (gray) header cells need to say whether they refer to the column or row. So, for example, the table that says "Chart (1994)" at the top should have that cell marked as scope="col", to indicate to people using screen readers and other devices, that the the whole first column is about the 1994 charts. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:00, 19 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@WhatamIdoing: Got it. I believe I have addressed the problem. Erick (talk) 05:20, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not an expert, but that looks like an improvement to me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:24, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ceranthor

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  • " released on 30 August 1994 by WEA Latina." - probably should clarify this is a record label
  • "Like Miguel's 1991 album Romance, Segundo Romance comprises cover versions of boleros (Latin ballads), written between 1934 and 1993." - no need for the comma before written, since it makes the written bit less clear
  • "It was recorded in early 1994 at the Record Plant in Los Angeles, produced by Miguel with Juan Carlos Calderón, Kiko Cibrian and Armando Manzanero." - the way this sentence is written makes it sound like the Record Plant was produced by Miguel etc. Rephrase.
  • "Four singles were released: "El Día Que Me Quieras" and "La Media Vuelta", "Todo y Nada" and "Delirio". " - clean up comma use. Shouldn't be X and Y, Z and Q. It should either be X, Y, Z, and Q or X, Y, Z and Q.
  • "The album was a success in Latin America and sold over seven million copies worldwide." - more than, not over
  • "In 1997, fellow Mexican singer Cristian Castro recorded the track for his album of the same name.[16]" - I don't really see why this is worth mentioning within the article. I'd exclude it. It's crufty.
  • "Segundo Romance comprises 11 cover versions of classic boleros, the oldest dating to 1934.[13] " - Why do you mention this fact twice within the same section? I think it works better here in this second instance better than the first.
  • "The arrangements consist of strings, saxophone solos, and a piano." - Elsewhere you haven't used the serial comma; you need to be consistent throughout
  • "Other styles include covers of Carlos Gardel and Alfredo Le Pera's tango "El Día Que Me Quieras", which uses a bandoneon, " - you should briefly explain what a bandoneon is in addition to linking it
  • "which features horns, strings, and Spanish guitars." - serial comma used here but not elsewhere
  • ""Somos Novios", "Cómo Yo Te Amé", and "Yo Sé Que Volverás".[14]" - same as above
  • "Its music video, directed by Pedro Torres,[26] filmed in black-and-white, features Miguel reminiscing at a bar about a woman who deceived him." - run-on sentence. Can be easily remedied by adding an 'and' after Torres
  • "The third single, "Todo y Nada",[28] reached number three on the Hot Latin Songs and number one on the Billboard Latin Pop Airplay charts.[21][29] " - anything about its music video since the others bring those up?
  • "To promote the album, Miguel began his Segundo Romance Tour in August 1994 with 16 shows at the National Auditorium in Mexico City, which drew an audience of over 155,000" - more than, not over
  • "AllMusic critic Jose F. Promis gave Segundo Romance four-and-a-half out of five" - I think you mean 4.5 stars out of 5; please clarify
  • ""a first-rate collection of timeless Latin American standards" and praised Miguel's vocals and the production." - citation after direct quote?
  • "Enrique Lopetegui of the Los Angeles Times gave the album three out of four," - stars note again (as above)
  • "Mario Tarradell of the Miami Herald was less pleased with the album, writing that it "pales in comparison to the original"" - citation after direct quote?
  • "Tarradell criticized Miguel's vocals "on autopilot,"" - this doesn't make sense. Reword the sentence to better convey your point.
  • "despite competition from Cristian Castro, Juan Gabriel, La Mafia and Plácido Domingo, who was favored to win by John Lannert of Billboard for his album De Mi Alma Latina.[39]" - I assume you are referring to Domino, but that's not super clear from this sentence structure. Please tweak accordingly
  • "Miguel won Pop Male Artist of the Year, Pop Album of the Year, and Video of the Year f" - serial comma used here but not elsewhere
  • "Segundo Romance was the Pop Album of the Year by a Male Artist at the 1995 Billboard Latin Music Awards,[42]" - Odd way of phrasing it. I think it would be better to say it won the award for Pop Album of the Year
  • There's a lot of passive voice in the awards section. Try to use more active voice
  • Lots of passive voice in commercial performance too.
  • "Like its predecessor, Segundo Romance continued the revival of interest in bolero music." - Awkwardly phrased; "helped to revive interest in..." would read better.
  • 'According to Enrique Lopetegui of the Los Angeles Times, both albums "created a revival for the bolero—the old-fashioned, string-based romantic messages of unrequited love were embraced even by young listeners".[60] Ed Morales wrote in his book The Latin Beat: The Rhythms and Roots of Latin Music from Bossa Nova to Salsa and Beyond: "Beyond merely being a revival, Romance and its 1994 follow-up, Segundo Romance was a significant update of the genre.' - You switch between putting a period inside quotation marks and putting it outside. I think putting it inside is preferable.
  • "In 1998, Romance, Segundo Romance, and Romances were compiled on Todos Los Romances, released by WEA Latina.[65]" - serial comma used here but not elsewhere

Weak Oppose - There seem to be a decent amount of prose issues with this article remaining. I think they can be fixed fairly easily, but the writing still needs a good amount of work, in my opinion. ceranthor 01:24, 16 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Ceranthor: Thanks for your comments, I believe I have addressed most of the issues you brought up. Couple of things: "Todo y Nada" has no music video which is why there is no mention of a music video for that song. I am confused by what you mean by active and passive voice on the commercial performance. This is usually how it's done on other FA albums. Erick (talk) 15:19, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Most of my comments were fixed, but I went through and made a few more tweaks. Now think this is ready. ceranthor 18:40, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment: Given how long this has been open, I'm a little concerned to see prose issues being identified. If this is not to be archived, I think we need to see a fairly fast turn-around on this. Sarastro (talk) 12:36, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have work from Sunday to Wednesday so I won't have enough free time to address the prose issues. My free time on Wikipedia right now are for sandbox drafts. I will work on the article this Thursday. Erick (talk) 12:38, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That is no problem, it certainly wouldn't be archived before that. Sarastro (talk) 13:52, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Magiciandude: I'll keep an eye out for your fixes, but if you could give me a ping when everything's resolved, I'd appreciate it. ceranthor 02:50, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from AJona1992
  • Not sure why the English translation of the album's title is parenthesized.
  • "his record label" implies that he owns the company, does/did he?
  • There's a mishap in the musical style subsection "(an accordion) from Argentina)"
  • In the accolades, I found another accidental mistake "Segundo Romancewon"
Other than the minor errors and questions I have found, I believe the article meets FA criteria and support its nomination once my comments have been addressed. Best – jona ✉ 17:57, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@AJona1992: I believe I have addressed everything you brought up. I used the preview to see what it looks like without the parenthesis, and it just looks naked. Thanks for the comments though jona! =) Erick (talk) 19:10, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Article now satisfies my support. Best – jona ✉ 20:49, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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