Wikipedia

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Final Fantasy VI/Archive 1

< Wikipedia:Featured article candidates | Final Fantasy VI

Final Fantasy VI

edit

This article has received a lot of attention in an effort to make it a featured article. With the help of several editors, this article has had a CVG peer review, a regular peer review. Several editors have collaborated on this in order to have this article reach featured status. All of the pictures have fair use rationale and correct copyright tags, fancruft has been identified and removed, and the article meets the featured article criteria. Furthermore, this article is not a gameFAQs duplicate.

Nominate and Support --ZeWrestler Talk 13:33, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oh dear, no. Erwin
  • Object. The section on censorship is gigantic, and doesn't need to show every single instance of censorship in the game. The Graphics and Musical score sections are too big with unecessary white space. The censhorship section is all muddled up, the Production credits is unnecessary, and the image on the infobox, according to consensus, should be the English boxart (with the exception of games not released in English). - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:44, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
        • Support, I guess. All complaints addressed except for the Infobox issue. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:26, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
    • The "consensus" regarding what image to put in the infobox does not, as far as I can tell, exist. The discussion went on for months, and I don't think any sort of reasonable observer could say that anything resembling a "consensus" was reached. Furthermore, there are a number of practical reasons for having the game logo there: the game was released multiple times in North America (and, if we're casting the net as "English," at least once in England, as well). There is nothing in the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computer_and_video_games#Infobox description of proper infobox usage that indicates that box art is any sort of mandated standard, and the writeup even points out that its precise usage is "strictly voluntary" and that "many variations on this archetype are in use in various articles." Final Fantasy VI is hardly unique in using this format, and it's been that way, without comment or reversion, for months. – Seancdaug 21:15, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
      • Actually, the page specifically states Additionally, consensus is that the image shown should be game box art. There is consensus on this, if you look at the discussion you linked to that was just one user (User:Slike2, who has since stopped contributing) objecting. The consensus on this issue was reached long before that discussion. Jacoplane 15:09, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • The "consensus" note was added by Andrevan after this discussion started, and one editor saying so does not a consensus make ("something akin to a supermajority"). A cursory look at the discussion I linked indicates that no consensus was reached: two people were actively in favor of using the box art, a handful more said that they either didn't care one way or the other, or could accept whatever, and a few more said that the important thing was having the logo in the infobox, which, I would like to point out, the article in question had all along. Furthermore, there are numerous articles that do not use the box art in the infobox, and it has never once been raised as a serious issue before (and some, like the Final Fantasy VII were even mooted as an ideal example of the form). All that being said, I've placed the Japanese box art in there now, in the interests of reducing controversy, but it remains, for all the reasons I and others have cited, an extremely problematic solution, as this is a case where the box art is probably more misleading than it is useful, given the multiple versions of the game released under various different names in various different regions. – Seancdaug 16:10, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
        • The discussion above is a bit of a red herring. They're discussing box art vs. screenshots. We're using the logo, which is part of the box art, and in this case, more concise. -- Norvy (talk) 15:29, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • I do believe there was a consensus and I agree with that guideline on WP:CVG; however, given that Final Fantasy 3/6 (whatever) has been released so many times and there are a number of box covers for it, I don't think the logo is a big deal - in fact, it may make it easier also considering it was released as FF3 and FF6. The consensus dealt with screenshots anyway, not a logo, which in any other situation I would also oppose in favor of boxart. K1Bond007 19:14, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
    • To start off, the spaces added in the graphics and musical score sections were put in to make the reduce visual clutter. Without the spaces, the pictures of those two sections would run into the next sections. --ZeWrestler Talk 19:32, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • It shouldn't have visual clutter, and it shouldn't have blank space. I suggest you add content to the sections or just remove the images. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:36, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
    • About how many instances of censorship would you say is acceptable? --ZeWrestler Talk 19:52, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • In responce to the production credits being unnecessary, I believe that they are necessary, and they have been used in other video game featured articles. A good example would be Super Mario 64 credits.--ZeWrestler Talk 20:17, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I'm a perfectionist, and I'm not 100% satisfied with everything about the article, but I think it's come a long way, and is more than worthy of FA status. – Seancdaug 21:16, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
    • Changing my vote to neutral in light of the lack of article stability cited by BrianSmithson. – Seancdaug 16:10, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
  • Neutral. I'd really like to support this one, but... eh, there are a lot of things wrong with it, in my view. The excessive censorship images, lack of flowing prose in the plot section, etc. It's a good article, I think, but I'm not sure it's worthy of being featured. --Dalkaen 22:28, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
  • Object. Does not conform with all WikiProjects, one of which is the WikiProject CVG, which states that the infobox picture should be the box art. Andre (talk) 00:02, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
  • Support I think it has reached a magnificant level with all the feedback and the contributions coming from both the Final Fantasy WikiProject and editors. It has my support. Derktar 20:38, September 1, 2005 (UTC).
  • Support The censorship section seems a managable size, as does the music section. There was an awkward phrase I think I made flow better and one fact I fixed. The infobox seems a little crouded with all the images, but it's not a big issue. This looks like a great article. Fieari 20:51, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. User:Seancdaug keeps reverting things to past tense that should be in present; he also insists on making album titles bold in an article that is not about albums. Besides, the page is hardly stable right now, which is one of the requirements for featured-article status. BrianSmithson 15:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • I take some offense at your characterization of my edit (which happened only once, I would add), Brian, though I do apologize for the error: the "reversions" were a mistake owing to an edit conflict, and I will gladly correct them. That being said, you're right about the stability question. In light of the issues that have been raised during this vote, I'm withdrawing my vote until such time as the page achieves stability. – Seancdaug 16:10, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
      • Sorry, Sean(?). I misinterpreted your edit, and I thought you had made similar changes before. There have been so many cooks in that kitchn, though, so it could have been anyone. Again, apologies. If the page attains some stability in the next couple of days, I will change my vote. The article is already much better than Wario, another video-game FA. BrianSmithson 16:59, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • No problem, and the very fact that I was running into edit conflicts kind of proves your second point. I think the major complaint, though, was about the infobox, and I expect that the resolution of that issue will do a great deal to stabilize the article. – Seancdaug 17:03, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
      • I would hardly call it better than Wario; it's not just the content, it's also the writing. For one, Wario keeps lists down to a minimum... and although Wario's in a different situation than a game, that character list should have much more content, opposed to being just one sentence. Not to flip flop, but I'd rather not support it unless the character list gains a little more content. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:35, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
        • Are you saying that the character list in this game should have more information, or are you referring to the Wario article. If your refering to this game, would the fact that the 14 major characters of FFVI have their own articles help? --ZeWrestler Talk 19:08, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • Yes, I'm speaking of FFVI, and yes, I know they all have articles, but no, that doesn't make it appropriate for the characters section to be underdeveloped. - A Link to the Past (talk)
        • That's exactly why I think it's better than Wario, though, Link. The FF6 article as it (sort of) stands now does not suffer from the list-o-mania that so many video-game articles do (we've pruned it of that). Wario currently takes a "In this game, Wario could do this. In this game, Wario could do this" approach, which makes it read like a fanpage. I think the FF6 characters section can stand a bit of fleshing out, but I'm perfectly happy with it as it is and would in fact prefer it that way. BrianSmithson 20:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • So should the character section be expanded or would that be considered going into the Fancruft territory.--ZeWrestler Talk 20:32, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
            • It is on a different level, however, because a video game article should either have an indepth analysis of the characters or no character list at all. It may have a list, but this list has a large amount of content, necessary content. And yes, it NEEDS extra content - there's fancruft, and then there's lack of info. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:38, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
              • The thing is, what kind of content would you be looking for? Adding length for length's sake seems pointless. And the thing is, the section was longer, several months ago: the problem is that most of the content was either fancruft or repetition of what was said better in other articles. Don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I'm honestly curious as to what you think is missing. – Seancdaug 21:10, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
                • It just needs an extra sentence on each character at least. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:38, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
                  • So you've said, but that's not actually useful: adding extra text simply for the purpose of making something longer is the very definition of "cruft." The question is what content you think is missing, what needs to be said about each character, but currently isn't. There's no point in making the thing longer if we don't have anything else worth saying. – Seancdaug 22:03, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
                    • Look at their pages, take a sentence. If it's not cruft there, it's not cruft here. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:04, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
                      • Actually, it most certainly can be, because of the different scope. Someone reading Locke Cole is almost certainly looking for detailed information about the character. Someone reading this article might be, but s/he might also be looking for information about the gameplay, or the music, or any countless number of other things. An article covering the game in its entirety cannot afford to be as detailed as an article devoted to but a single part of that game, and what's perfectly acceptable in the latter is fluff and cruft in the former. Furthermore, it's unneccessary repetition: there are links to every single character article right there in the section, so why on earth waste space by copying and pasting existing info? Again, it's entirely possible that there is character information that deserves to be in the Final Fantasy VI article that we've missed, but you've given no hint as to what you think that information might be. You've just said you want the section to be longer, and seem positively uninterested in the actual content of the section. Which strikes me as a positively surreal attitude to take for an encyclopedia. So I ask again: what sort of sentence would you like us to take from the individual character pages and add to this article? – Seancdaug 22:27, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
  • I don't know, you seem to be an FFVI fan, you work it out. One extra sentence on the character is certainly not cruft. - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:27, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
    • But that's just it: I am a fan. If I had to, I could wax on nearly indefinitely about every single character in the game. But, then again, I'm also not the kind of person who would be consulting an encyclopedia for information about the game, am I? The question isn't what sort of fannish minutae we can add to the section, but sort of thing the "average" reader would be likely to look for. That's why I keep asking you, as (apparently) a non-fan: what are you looking for? What's missing? And, more to the point, if you can supply a single thing that you think should be there but isn't, what's the point of expanding the section? If we don't have anything else important to say, why add extraneous prose (more precisely, cruft) to the article? – Seancdaug 00:21, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
      • I'd have to say Seancdaug makes an exceedingly valid point. :P --Dalkaen 00:34, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
        • It is NOT cruft. You're avoiding the matter at hand, that all the characters list is, is a list of characters with one sentence slapped onto them. You're avoiding cruft to the point of giving bare-bone information, and going for minimal information, as opposed to the middleground. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:56, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
          • Link, I have done no such thing. The reason I posed my initial question was to engage your complaint. You're the one who has the problem: it's up to you to help us understand how we can resolve it. You keep barely skirting around the meat of the issue: the fact that we're having this discussion is my way of trying to attain the "middleground." But there is absolutely nothing to be gained by adding random information (that, furthermore, is already available in other articles) simply to pad the article, which is already plenty long as is. "Make it longer" is not a particularly constructive comment. "I would like to see more information about x" is, and that's what I'm still waiting for you to respond to. – Seancdaug 01:34, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
          • Everyone, relax a few minutes. We are here to discuss this article and how to make it into an FA. Not to squabble like little school girls. (no offence to the female editors) Lets take a deep breath, count to 10 and try to work together, rather then against each other. --ZeWrestler Talk 01:41, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • Just to itemize what's in the article, as far as I can see, each character has a:
          1. Full Name
          2. Name in Japanese
          3. Brief background
          4. Character type (i.e. class)
          5. Combat technique
        • Keep in mind Featured article criteria #6: It should stay tightly-focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail, using summary style to cover sub-topics in other articles. So, for the third time, what's missing? -- Norvy (talk) 01:09, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • I added a sentence to the Terra description. It is a brand new sentence that I did not copy from the other article on her. Is this addition to her what you want done to the others, or should I delete the sentence? --ZeWrestler Talk 01:16, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • Norv, it's a matter of undevelopment. One extra sentence would not harm anything. And Ze, looks good. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:25, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
            • Padding does not equal development, and we can't develop anything without some sort of idea as to what our ultimate goal is. And you have resolutely failed to address that very basic issue. What kind of information should we add? If there's no specific rationale for expansion, then that expansion is meaningless (again, this is what "cruft" means). "Not harming" is not the same as "helping," after all. – Seancdaug 01:40, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
              • Use Ze's edit as an example. I personally hate it when there's a large series of small paragraphish parts in articles. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:08, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
                • What if we rewrite the "Characters" section as prose rather than a list? Maybe break the section into two or three paragraphs, either separating by major characters (Terra, Locke) vs. minor characters (Mog, Umaru), or based on broad classes (fighters, magic-users, rogues)? The paragraphs would go something like: "Final Fantasy VI features fourteen playable characters blah blah blah that fit into the traditional role-playing-game classes of fighters, magic users, and rogues." Then begin the fighter paragraph: "Cyan Garamonde is blah blah blah." This would avoid the list-o-mania that I've mentioned before, and it might let us add another sentence on the more important characters without it looking unbalanced if we leave the minor figures alone (I mean, how much more can you say about Gogo?). Or am I barking up the proverbial wrong tree? BrianSmithson 02:28, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
                  • I agree that this is probably the best solution, and, indeed, that's basically what I did when I worked on improving the Final Fantasy VIII article a month or so ago. – Seancdaug 02:58, September 4, 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. I wasn't sure about the boxart, but I'll accept the logo if people really want to have it. Other than that it's a great article. Jacoplane 19:21, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This article (about a great game may I add), is very informative and is better than some video game featured articles. I see no issue with the logo in the infobox. Though, as Sean noted earlier, there is no real "consensus" - though most articles do use the North American box art. The best known N.A. box art is Image:Ff3usbox.gif, which of course contradicts the title of the article. The only other N.A. box art is Ffabox.jpg, which is box art for a compilation known by another name. I don't believe the game was as successful in Europe as it was in America (probably because it was first released there when the graphics were fairly dated), thus making Image:Ff6eupsxbox.jpg a bad choice. As the article is in English, using any of the Japanese box art is stupid. The logo is the way to go. — WARPEDmirror 21:17, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I'm willing to bet if the Final Fantasy Wikiproject was polled, they'd endorse the logo. I also see no reason to bloat the character section with information about a character's astrology sign or weight when that information better serves the reader in the character's page. -- Norvy (talk) 23:27, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait, did I just read what I think I read? Are you saying that all information on Terra can be summed up in a single sentence? That the character list will take up half of the article's space if each character got even a SINGLE sentence added to them? Again, you're saying that middleground is cruft, and that the only appropriate information is almost no information. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:00, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
  • Support - Great article, the recent streamlining since I've been gone has made it even better. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 22:30, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
  • Support A good article that isn't too wordy or full of info that is meaningless to the casual reader. It is definitely deserving of featured status. Amren (talk) 16:45, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose—Hardly meets the criterion of 'brilliant' prose. Take, for example, awkward sentences such as: 'Towns contain shops where players can buy items, and villagers who offer information.'

Or 'Magicite also imparts various statistic bonuses as characters gain experience levels. Magicite also ...' Two successive sentences start the same way. Why 'also'? Every new sentence could be 'also'. 'Statistic bonuses' is a non-item. How do you gain experience levels?

Or this huge snake: 'In addition, the English localization features several name changes, either because of length restrictions ("Stragos" becomes "Strago"), Nintendo content guidelines (the magic spell "Holy" becomes "Pearl" to avoid religious connotations), or simply because of cultural differences between Asian and North American audiences (Terra's Japanese name, Tina, sounds exotic to Japanese speakers because of its usage of the rare "Ti" sound, but is a common Anglophone name).' This is indigestible—so many phrases tacked onto each other like roof-tiles.

The large amount of text given over to an account of what is, frankly, a superficial, plot-driven story that would do poorly as a high-school attempt at fiction, makes me wonder whether this ranks with the best the Wikipedia has to offer. I can see that the authors have worked hard, and in its own way, it's OK; but I'm afraid an unfeatured article it should stay. There's nothing special about it. By the way, please don't use male generic pronouns; be inclusive. Tony

Sorry, I've gone to the correct article and found it very easy to pluck out equivalent examples, which I've inserted above. The first example remains awkward in the article, despite your recent changes. My overall feelings are unchanged, although it is a step up from F IV.

Another example (they're so easy to find): 'Final Fantasy VI's combat is menu-based, meaning the player selects a battle action for the character from a menu of choices.' The possessive form is clumsy here; 'menu' should not be repeated in the same sentence; both cases of 'the' need rethinking. Isn't 'of choices' redundant?

With such a topic, the article would need to be very special to qualify for featured status. Tony 16:05, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • During the Peer Review we were told that we hadn't covered the storyline fully enough. Now you are saying too much of the text is dedicated to the story. Which is it? I also fail to understand why you added a comment next to male pronoun male-pronoun, rather than just fixing it. By the way, for the sake of clarity, you shouldn't edit your past comments. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 16:08, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

For the sake of clarity, I did edit my past comments. And one of my key concerns is that it's a boring little superficial story. Why not let people experience it simply by playing the game? Why write it out in an authoritative resource such as Wikipedia? It's just not of the quality we expect of featured articles. Tony 16:11, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree that people should experience the story themselves. But this it what we were advised to do during the peer review. So I request comment from other editors, should the storyline section have ever been expanded? --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 16:59, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Let me put my previous, intemperate comment in context. Don't get me wrong, I'd probably play the game myself if I had access to it (although I wouldn't purchase it). However, the story-line is made for a game, and requires interactivity to be of any value. Once it's removed from its original context, as here, it comes across as one long stream of sub-Lord of the Rings plot-sequence. Without characterisation, it's uninteresting; to a certain extent, this lack of characterisation is compensated for by the human element in the playing of the game—that's my point.

To be constructive, I'd consider changing my opinion if:

    • the prose were lifted to the specified 'brilliant' standard (I'm not interested in working on it intensively, but you might find others);
    • there were a stronger account of any criticism the game may have received;
    • there were an outline of the technological/feature improvements thus far in the series;
    • there were a section positioning this game in the array of similar games that have been developed (not in terms of plot/content, but technically);
    • there were some mention (at the top?) of the demographic at which the game is targetted, and the marketing strategy of the manufacturer;
    • there were an account of how such games (or this one in particular) are developed, from initial idea right through to production and marketing.

Then it will start to look like among the best that Wikipedia has to offer.

I'd be inclined to shorten the plot section, so that it's more of a summary. The stream of names, in particular, won't mean much to the unitiatied reader. Give us an overall idea of the flavor of the plot, and its movement in broad brushstrokes only. At the start of the plot section, you neglect to state that the story occurs in some kind of fictional, mediavalist world. (I'd ignore the previous advice to expand the plot, in the light of my argument here.)

I'm interested to know how much of the information here is simply a repeat of what you receive in the accompanying hard-copy, or that is embedded in the game. Can one of the authors let us know? Tony 01:06, 7 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • The problem with many of your suggestions is that much of the information you desire simply does not exist in any kind of accessible form. It's difficult to present an account of the development of this particular game simply because the English-language material on that topic is sparse, and anything beyond that would likely fall under the rubric of original research. And I think it's important to remember that this is not an article about computer role-playing games, so any "general" overview of "how such games are developed" would likely belong elsewhere to begin with. As for "any criticism the game may have received," I tend to agree, but the vast majority of commentators have pointed out (with some degree of relevancy, I think) that more often than not such writeups are a thinly disguised example of POV-pushing, and that unless a case can be made of the notability of a particular strain of criticism in the larger sense (like a direct link to sales, or whatever) that such things are very rarely encyclopedic. As for the plot section, none of it is "simply a repeat of what you receive in the accompanying hard-copy." It is a summary, although perahps a longer one than you'd like. And uninteresting though it may be (and, understand, I'm not really disagreeing with you here), I'm not convinced that it's irrelevant to a writeup of the game, which is a more useful rubric for inclusion, IMO. – Seancdaug 12:14, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose, I agree with Tony, the quality of the writing isn't there, take for example this monster:
Together with other members of the Returners and anti-imperial sympathizers, including Locke, a thief who searches the world for a special treasure that can restore life, King Edgar of Figaro, who has publicly allied with the Empire, but secretly provides supplies and aid to the Returners, and former Imperial general Celes, Terra manages to open the gate to the world of the Espers in a bid to enlist their aid against the Empire.
I may have a thing for tables at the moment, but the list of characters would look better as a table (Character!Description!Special ability) or actially written as prose than as a list. It would also be usedful for the reader to have been introduced to the cast before the plotline. I think it would aslo been informative in terms of the franchise to describe how this game was technologically different from its predecessors, did final fantasy V have Mode 7 graphics, are there any gameplay differences between the Super Nintendo and the playstation versions, I assume this kind of info would be in the early reviews mentioned in the reception section. It's kind of crufty, but it should probably mention how many hours it takes to play through the game, and that this was a very popular RPG amoung gamers (beyond the sales figures which don't mean alot without the reader knowing how well video games sell normally).--nixie 12:56, 8 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Return to Oppose per nixie and Tony. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:38, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
Comment- Now the infobox image is the box art. So... igordebraga ≠ 17:09, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Final_Fantasy_VI/Archive_1&oldid=1138460709"