Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Early life of Cleopatra/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 30 March 2019 [1].

Early life of Cleopatra

Nominator(s): Векочел (talk) 16:20, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the early life of the pharaoh Cleopatra. This is her story from her birth until she assumed power upon her father's death. Little is known about her early life compared to her reign, and in general little is known about the Ptolemaic rulers. Her mother's name is uncertain and it is thought that she accompanied her father into his exile, but this is also uncertain. With that said, this article tries to cover her early life. Векочел (talk) 16:20, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it." Have you consulted with User:PericlesofAthens before making this nomination? He did write 97% of this article. RetiredDuke (talk) 18:11, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- I have not. I'll ask him if this can be nominated. Векочел (talk) 18:17, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Pericles says it's OK to continue with the nomination. Векочел (talk) 20:53, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Векочел: I just want to clarify that I didn't mean to imply that you need to ask for anyone's permission to start a nomination. My question had more to do with at least consult with Pericles if the article is ready for the process or even if it is suited for it. Some in-depth questions by reviewers can prove to be tricky to someone who does not know the article well. Like FunkMonk's meta question of why does this article even exist. Or more challenging questions about coverage and availability of sources. RetiredDuke (talk) 19:36, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder why this needs to be a separate article to begin with? Much of the text seems to be identical to that in the Cleopatra article. FunkMonk (talk) 10:50, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@FunkMonk: this sub-article might superficially appear that way because it was a split article from the main Cleopatra one, the latter needing to be smaller for its own FA nomination (which was successful). However, Early life of Cleopatra contains a significant amount of detail not seen in the biography section of the main article (such as her father's political dealings with Rome), and follows a convention found in other articles at Wikipedia, such as Early life of Augustus. Whether or not you think this article is FA material, it earned and deserved its current GA status, as I put a lot of hard work into this and the other sub-articles about Cleopatra (including Death of Cleopatra, which is also now an FA article). Pericles of Athens^Talk 14:24, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think if this article will be promoted, its author, User:PericlesofAthens, should be the nominator. However, Векочел asked Pericles a month ago if he wanna bring this article to FA, to which Pericles answered: No. Now, when this article was nominated, Векочел, after being asked to do so by RetiredDuke, asked Pericles if he can nominate, to which Pericles replied with a Yes. However, this "yes" came with a context: Pericles asked Векочел: are you sure it's ready for that? It is fleshed out somewhat, but it's not a very sizable, significantly detailed article. Also, Pericles, rightly so, seemed unhappy with the way things went, saying: I would appreciate it if you would approach me first about nominating FA articles, especially ones that I've written almost entirely. Also, Векочел told Pericles that he collected some sources on Cleopatra to help him. However, judging by the article's history, Векочел did not add any information that did not exist, merely he copy edited a little and changed the placement of photos. If he have sources, then he should use them to improve the article first, then nominate. I also wonder if Векочел is familiar with the historiography and have access to all the sources?--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 11:57, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The nomination is perhaps a bit hasty; personally, I would have nominated my other GA article Reign of Cleopatra instead. However, I think this article's content is certainly FA material and I'm almost certain it thoroughly covers the topic of her rearing and childhood given how much more we know about her later life and career as queen of Ptolemaic Egypt. I'll leave that assessment up to you guys, but the one thing that would obviously hinder this article's nomination is its small size. Some might interpret that as an indication that it is incomplete or fails to show the entire picture, but really it's just a reflection of scholarly sources and the limitations of our knowledge about her due to ancient primary sources. Pericles of Athens^Talk 14:24, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Pericles. I dont think the size matter. Its a comprehensive article and since I also have an interest in Hellenistic kings, I understand that sometimes we dont have much info about them. However, Im more concerned with the nominator's knowledge regarding the topic. If you would take the nomination, Im sure the reviews will be more meaningful since you are familiar with the historigraphy and the sources. I think the article wont have troubles passing if its writer is the nominator.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 14:37, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Attar-Aram syria, I have some knowledge on Cleopatra, and I have a few books about the queen to help me. Векочел (talk) 15:48, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again, Attar-Aram syria! I'm pretty much retired from Wikipedia aside from doing small edits in the background. I actually had no plans on nominating any more articles for FA status. If others wish to do that, then that's fine, but only if they are fully prepared for this. Векочел, could you offer us a list of the sources you have available? Do you have any of the sources already cited in the article? It seems that someone made edits to the lead section at some point in time and introduced serious errors that I have just now fixed. There's no evidence Ptolemy XII Auletes traveled to Rome in exile with his entire family minus Berenice IV and Cleopatra V Tryphaena. The sources only say he did so with a daughter, and it's safe to say this was Cleopatra VII Philopator, not Arsinoe IV, the latter who doesn't seem to have had a close relationship with him. From what I've read, there's no evidence suggesting that her brothers Ptolemy XIII or Ptolemy XIV joined them either. For that, please see Joann Fletcher (2008: pp. 76–77, 80, 84–85) and also Duane W. Roller (2010: p. 22). Pericles of Athens^Talk 15:32, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pericles and Attar-Aram syria, I have Roller's Cleopatra, Fletcher's Cleopatra the Great, and Burstein's The Reign of Cleopatra. Векочел (talk) 23:04, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, cool! Those are incredibly important, critical I would say for continuing this FA candidacy, since they make up a majority of citations. If you have those, then I think you'll be more than able to handle this nomination. That said, I would suggest trying to get a hold of Günther Hölbl's A History of the Ptolemaic Empire (2001) and Michael Grant's Cleopatra (1972). Best of luck, Векочел! If you need any help with any problems that may arise here, just leave a message on my talk page. Pericles of Athens^Talk 00:32, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I cant help but doubting that Векочел read those sources. Pericles, can you take a look at this, so you can know why I think that Векочел is nominating this article for reasons not related to improving the content of Wiki.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 09:24, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Attar-Aram syria: thanks for sharing. In that instance, yes, it does not look like he consulted any sources, and this was just several days ago. I can't read anyone's mind through my computer, so I can't say for certain that Векочел has or has not consulted any of the academic works mentioned above. Векочел, would you mind offering an explanation about this and how you plan on conducting this FA nomination by addressing all of these concerns? Also, could you provide us with some excerpts of the sources you've listed? I think that would put reviewers at ease and would also demonstrate that you are ready to tackle this subject. Pericles of Athens^Talk 14:35, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I will give you excerpts from the sources.

"Octavian used his divine connections to become 'divi filius', 'the son of a god', albeit by adoption" Fletcher, p. 222
"This autograph of Cleopatra VII certainly is one of the more exciting discoveries of recent years" Roller, p. 134
"Cleopatra won Antony's recognition of Alexander Helios and Cleopatra Selene as his children" Burstein, p. 24

I would also appreciate your help, Pericles. You were, of course, the main contributor to this article. Векочел (talk) 21:50, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Векочел: Very good. Thanks for providing those excerpts. You can count on my assistance with the FA nomination should you need it. Just leave a message on my talk page if and when that need arises! Regards, Pericles of Athens^Talk 23:28, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note

Three weeks into this nom and the only discussion is whether this should be a separate article, who should get credit for it, and whether the nominator is familiar with the sources. FAC isn't the place for this so I'm going to archive and ask that the next step be peer review (formal, as at WP:PR, or informal, on the article's talk page) to try and flesh out such stuff before anyone considers a re-nomination here. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:19, 30 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 06:20, 30 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.