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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Beaver/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 22 October 2020 [1].

Beaver

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Nominator(s): LittleJerry (talk) 16:17, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've been very bust working on this article about one of the busiest animals. Have at it. LittleJerry (talk) 16:17, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SG comments

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  • EXTREME MOS:SANDWICHing of images is everywhere. This can probably be solved by eliminating a number of images which aren't needed for understanding the topic. I am surprised to see this from an experienced nominator, and will try to read the article once this basic is addressed.
There isn't any sandwiching for me. It really depends on the breadth of your screen when you're on desktop mode   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:57, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • MOS:CAPTIONS, please review punctuation on image captions, eg, A beaver lodge at the edge of a stream. ... does not require a full stop.
  • Check your ps and pps, eg Müller-Schwarze & Lixing Sun 2003, p. 32–33. vs. Müller-Schwarze & Lixing Sun 2003, pp. 85. ... this is everywhere. p. 56–57. Müller-Schwarze & Lixing Sun 2003, pp. 58. Müller-Schwarze & Lixing Sun 2003, p. 57–58.
  • What is your page range scheme (citation consistency)? For example, Animal Behaviour. 63 (6): 1073–78. but ... BioScience. 38 (11): 753–762. Decide which digits you repeat.
  • This external link is dead, and FAs are supposed to be comprehensive, why are we linking to another encyclopedia? http://thecanadianencyclopedia.com/articles/beaver-rodent
  • What does this External link offer that can't be covered in the article? https://web.archive.org/web/20081029222026/http://animal.discovery.com/mammals/beaver/
  • I can't see why giardiasis is a See also, rather than as a mention in the article (environmental effects)?

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:06, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed all. LittleJerry (talk) 16:05, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose a rushed nomination (as can be seen in the "bust" introduction). No, not fixed all. I suggested that giardiasis needed to worked in to the article; instead it was completely removed. Now we have no mention of a problem endemic to beavers. Similarly, beaver attack could be worked in to the article rather than listed as a See also. FAs are supposed to be comprehensive, and giardia is a beaver issue.
The image (and description) in infrastructure illustrate the need for alt text throughout. As a sighted person, I have a problem understanding the illustration of a lodge, and can't imagine what a person using a screen reader is supposed to make of that image and the associated confusing text in the article. The feeding and nesting chambers are the same? What is holding up the top part? The beavers and logs are similarly colored and difficult to distinguish. The text talks about all three structures in a way that I have to go back and re-read several times to understand that three different structures have been mentioned, yet never answers my questions about the image.
There are copyedit issues throughout: sample "The ponds they have created certain have flooded other trees and vegetation." Which fish is which and who did what? "However, areas with introduced beaver were associated with increased populations of native puye fish (Galaxias maculatus), whereas the exotic species had negative effects on native stream fishes in the Cape Horn Biosphere Reserve, Chile." How did we get to New Zealand in the same paragraph? Overuse of however should be reviewed. The lead is choppy and an inadequate summary of the article; one thought does not flow to the next and it does not compel the reader to want to know more.
Please don't expect FAC reviewers to do all the work of bringing an article through to the state of preparedness that should be there before the nomination; we should be able to focus instead on issues of substance at FAC, and repeat nominators should know this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:41, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
These are being worked on. I just added in giardiasis before you put in your oppose. LittleJerry (talk) 15:13, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Two days earlier, you said "fixed all". My oppose stands: see FAC talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:51, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - in addition to Sandy's point above

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • Suggest reviewing captions for grammar
  • File:Die_Gartenlaube_(1858)_b_068_white_background.jpg: what is the author's date of death?
Who cares. The image is from 1858. LittleJerry (talk) 13:51, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It includes a copyright tag based on author date of death, so this information should be provided. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:09, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ernst Keil died in 1878 but I can't edit that in. LittleJerry (talk) 15:50, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Here. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:41, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 16:07, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Rpelaced. LittleJerry (talk) 13:51, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The new image is missing a legend. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:09, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Hog Farm

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Might be claimed for WikiCup points. Hog Farm Bacon 19:57, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Dipoides appears to have been a rather poor builder than modern beavers" - Missing a word in here? Doesn't read right to me
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "heir four incisors are chisel-shaped with continuous growth. The outer enamel of the incisors is very thick and colored orange due to the presence of iron. The roots of the lower incisors extend throughout the length of the lower jaw. Beavers have two premolars and six molars for each jaw adding up to 20 teeth in total." - Based on the math, it must be four incisors on each jaw. Clarify that, as it's not super obvious from the phrasing
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Beaver populations currently range from Spain and France, though central and eastern Europe and into Scandinavia and western Russia and their population totaled at least 639,000 by 2006." - Got a more up-to-date number?
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:29, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Starting in 2009, beavers have also been reintroduced to parts of Great Britain" - Surely it's been enough time to tell if it's been a successful reintroduction or not
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:29, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Dams consist of logs, rocks, wads of grass and mud" - Need an "and" in there
I don't understand. LittleJerry (talk) 13:29, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Misread.
  • "which are around 2 °C (36 °F) cooler than the surrounding air. Open-water lodges are used during the winter and their temperature is similar to that of the surrounding water, at around 0.5 °C (32.9 °F)" - Not the conversion you wanted. You wanted what two individual degrees equals, but you got what exactly 2 degrees is
I don't understand. LittleJerry (talk) 13:29, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You're misusing the convert template. A decrease of 2°C does not equal a decrease of 36°F. The convert template converts an absolute temperature, not a relative decrease. Hog Farm Bacon 14:47, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 19:34, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Wyoming
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:29, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " caring for the younger offsrping" - Spelling
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:29, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Within the lodge, beavers communicate with burgs and whines. They produce gargles and bubbles when entering and exiting" - Not clear what exactly some of these sound names are suppose to represent
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:29, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Got to leave now, but I am not done yet. Will have some more points later. Hog Farm Bacon 23:44, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Beavers were also hunted for their fur. They were particularly easy to find for trappers as they stayed in one place. Trappers will kill entire families in a lodge. Beaver pelts were mainly used to make hats, which were considered a luxury item in 17th century England and were commonly stolen" - Weird tense switch
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:29, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do beavers have any parasites or endemic diseases? Just about all critters do, but there's no mention of such here.
Will work. LittleJerry (talk) 13:29, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added. LittleJerry (talk) 13:59, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note to coords: nonexpert here, so I'm not going to be able to detect potential flaws in technical matters. Mostly just a layman's review here. Hog Farm Bacon 02:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Beavers tend to use the bank lodges during the summer, which are around two degrees cooler than the surrounding air. Open-water lodges are used during the winter and their temperature is similar to that of the surrounding water, at around 0.5 °C (32.9 °F)." - Got two issues with these sentences. First, two degrees celsius is about 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit, so you have to state whether the two degrees is in Celsius or Fahrenheit. And then to provide the conversion, you're gonna have to do it by hand, as the template's gonna try to make it as two absolute degrees celsius. So you'll just have to do the conversion manually and stick in the parenthesis. Second, it's very unclear what 0.5 °C is suppose to mean here. It reads like it's suppose to mean that 0.5 °C is the temperature the water stays at, which seems implausible. Climactic conditions around the beaver's range means it isn't going to stick at 32.9 degrees Fahrenheit all winter, which suggests to me this is another poorly formatted range. Hog Farm Bacon 02:11, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 03:09, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Beavers were also hunted for their fur. They were particularly easy to find for trappers as they stayed in one place. Trappers will kill entire families in a lodge" - Still not sold here. The weird use of "will" here is an issue for me, as the rest of this paragraph is used to talk about historical events..
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by the early 21 century" - 21st century. This article could definitely have used a heavy copy edit.
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a map of the distribution of the beaver? If so, replace the Poland beaver image in the distribution section with it.
I asked Mariomassone to make one. LittleJerry (talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The lineages of the two beaver species are estimated to have split around 7.5 mya" - Makes it sound pretty clear. However, the source says Similar to the divergence of the family Castoridae, the divergence time of the two extant beaver species has not yet been estimated with much precision.. Looks like there's some ambiguity that needs clarified. Also, this probably needs more than one study's results: cladistics and phylogenies can be very different between different scientists.
Fixed. This is the best and most recent cladogram I can find on fossil beavers. LittleJerry (talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There is one case of a dog that died during surgery after being bitten by a beaver in 2010 at University Lake in Alaska, where a number of unprovoked attacks against pets were recorded" - Beaver attack lists another dog killed, and is sourced. "There is one case ..." is thus a bit misleading.
  • Are beavers still hunted anywhere? I don't see this being mentioned in the article anywhere
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 03:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nearly every animal is hunted. LittleJerry (talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • C. Californicus is mentioned in the infobox, but nowhere else.
Its not significent. There's barely any information on it. LittleJerry (talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It at least needs a citation ... Hog Farm Bacon 03:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there's more, and that was only a casual glance. I'll be giving this another close go-over, as I see more issues each time I look at this. Hog Farm Bacon 02:45, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please wait. I listed it for a copyedit and have asked some people.to do it. LittleJerry (talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Tell me when you're ready. Hog Farm Bacon 03:55, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and suggest withdrawal These things should have been done before nomination. This one wasn't ready for FAC. Agree with Dunkleosteus, there's a good deal of missing information. Hog Farm Bacon 14:05, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dunkleosteus77

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  • When I left you at GA, I was kinda expecting you to expand the article a bit more, namely (as I said) on human–beaver interactions, extinct beaver species, diseases and parasites, the hunting of European beavers, the decline of beaver hunting, beaver hunting today (like, when's beaver season? Quota counts?) I know in the past you've said you don't want important articles to be dumping grounds for all kinds of random information, but for especially iconic animals such as the beaver, you should expect the article to have some girth, which isn't necessarily a crime   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:57, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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