Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2017 FA Cup Final/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 26 April 2021 [1].

2017 FA Cup Final

Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 16:04, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The oldest association football cup in the world, and 2017 was a veritable Clash of the Titans. An enjoyable read hopefully, full of lovey descriptive prose. Fingers crossed you can make both heads and tails of it. As always, I'll be my ever-diligent self when it comes to addressing all reasonable comments. Thanks in advance for your time and energy. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 16:04, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Images are freely licensed. I edited to remove sandwiching which had been present. (t · c) buidhe 19:11, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Accessibility: The route to the finals tables should have captions. Some images are missing alt text. Heartfox (talk) 20:13, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Heartfox all addressed and I added alt text to the kit too. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 17:10, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Great! Heartfox (talk) 21:28, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski

I'll begin a review of this article very soon! My reviews tend to focus on prose and MOS issues, especially on the lede, but I will also comment on anything that could be improved. I'll post up some comments below over the next couple days, which you should either respond to, or ask me questions on issues you are unsure of. I'll be claiming points towards the wikicup once this review is over.

Lede

London rivals Arsenal and Chelsea - do we need "London rivals" here? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:41, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why not. It might not even be clear to some people that both clubs are based in London. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's also a weird sea of blue, I think it wouldn't be too bad, but there are a lot of top end London rivals. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:41, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree there other other rivalries, but given there's even an article specifically about this one, I don't see it's harmful in any way, indeed it gives context to the perhaps edginess of the match. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It was the 136th FA Cup final overall and was the showpiece match of English football's primary cup competition, the Football Association Challenge Cup (FA Cup), organised by the Football Association (FA) - I feel the bit about it being the final of the FA Cup is a little more relevant than it being the 136th edition of it. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:41, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really follow. These are all relevant facts, it says it's the final, acknowledging that it's the 136th edition of it demonstrates the provenance of the competition. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, I mean the order. So, mention the match is the final of the competition, and then that it was the 136th edition. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:40, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But the two facts are literally side by side! It would look really bizarre to say "it was the final ... and the 136th final..." The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:46, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

first final since 2003 in which both sides split the league games against each other during the course of the season, with a 3–0 victory by Arsenal in September 2016, and a 3–1 win by Chelsea in February 2017. - I think we could re-write this in such a way that would mean you don't need to know about the premier league. Maybe "The two sides had met twice in the Premier League in the season, with a 3–0 victory by Arsenal in September 2016, and a 3–1 win by Chelsea in February 2017, the first time since 2003 the sides had won once against each other coming into the final." or similar. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:41, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Minor reword. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The game was broadcast live in the United Kingdom by both BBC and BT Sport. BBC One provided the free-to-air coverage and BT Sport 2 was the pay-TV alternative - I don't think we should mention "free-to-air" or "pay-TV", as arguably you have to pay to watch either. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:41, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think "free to air" is common usage for broadcast on things like ITV and BBC, it means that no additional fees have to be paid to see it. In any case, we all know it's possible to watch the BBC without paying anything at all. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"chested it down", whilst I don't want to stifle regular wordings, this doesn't add much to "recieve the ball".Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:41, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, for the lead I've removed that detail. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The goal by Ramsey should really mention that he was an Arsenal player, as we've just talked about Chelsea scoring.Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:41, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Addressed. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
champions for the 2017 FA Community Shield. - in the 2017.... I know technically it is for the Shield, but we are saying they qualified to play in a match.Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:41, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't follow, sorry, they earned the right to play for the Shield. That's what they did and that's what it says? The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Prose

I think I've suggested this before on another FAC, but could we have a little bit of background for the FA Cup, what it is, how its played etc.Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:55, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a link to 2016–17 FA Cup which, in turn, will link back to FA Cup. I think the gist of the competition is best described in one or both of those articles. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:21, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Probably worth relinking the Arsenal and Chelsea teams in the prose.Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:55, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:21, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've never noticed this before, but why do we link the away stadiums in the route to the final table under "A"? If we need to have the links, surely there should be another column. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:55, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so. We don't need the links, but they might be interesting and useful. If you don't think they're useful, I can just unlink them, but that goes against other similar articles where this has never been a problem. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:21, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'd never noticed this before. I suspect I'd have to take it to WT:FOOTY, but I suspect the answer will be "it's always done like this", but it's a little WP:EASTEREGGY to me. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:45, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well the facts are already in the prose, so this is just a synopsis of that really. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:47, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
London rivals Tottenham Hotspur - do we need these links next to each other?Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:55, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well I've been told at least a dozen times that two links side-by-side don't constitute a sea of blue. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:21, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but it was yourself who actually told me it was! What about "London rival" club Tottenham Hotspur to avoid all of this? It's a bit interesting to me, as the article isn't on London rivalries, it's on the specific rivalry between the two clubs. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:50, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Reworded a bit. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:55, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
previously (in 1930, 1936, 1950, 1971, 1979, 1993, 1998, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2014 and 2015) - this does feel a bit overkill. Maybe as a note? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:55, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:27, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Same as lede with the PayTV dealio. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:55, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
See above. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:21, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
qualified for the 2017–18 UEFA Europa League group stage, having failed to qualify fo the 2017–18 UEFA Champions League - had they not already qualified for the Europa League from finishing 5th? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:55, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, good spot, the end of the season was a bit of a mixture with qualifications when United won the Europa League etc... Adjusted. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:38, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea how the qualification works for that tournament, other than they would have had a position regardless of the result. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:50, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments

There's on ref for Metro - I think this is generally regarded as unreliable (I don't use it for snooker articles for that reason)
Replaced and reworded. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:21, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, if you liked this review, or are looking for items to review, I have some at my nominations list. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:30, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lee Vilenski thanks, I've taken a stab at your comments. Cheers for the review. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:38, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to support, although I would say that I'm not the biggest fan of the links for the (H) and (A) in the table to the stadiums. Not enough to cause a fuss, but I'd say it probably is a question needing to be asked. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:40, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment

Three weeks in and only one general support. Just a heads up that if there is not a fair bit of further activity over the next three or four days I am afraid that this nomination is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:36, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As noted before, I have been warned not to solicit reviews from others by a co-ord so I guess this one is destined to fail for no good reason. Cheers! The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 16:29, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport from Ceoil

About half ways through reading, comments to follow shortly. Ceoil (talk) 11:20, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil that's very kind, thanks. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:29, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

before Mertesacker denied Costa - Should "denied" be blocked or took possession from or something
as Chelsea increased the pressure – players moved forward?
Moses fell in the Arsenal area under pressure - "under pressure" again vague
saved by Courtois low down to his left Not sure what "low down to his left" means
beating him before shooting wide of the Chelsea goal before Costa's strike - remove one "before"
More later Ceoil (talk) 17:29, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil I've edited all of those to hopefully make more sense! Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 19:31, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Who is Paul Merson
Would remain as Arsenal manager come the season's end - "until"
Not sure, this implies he would leave at the end of the season, whereas the current text simply states that he was sure he would still be manager at the end of the season, not making any claims other than that. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:41, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
distributed to volunteers involved in the FA's work - FA volunteers
Finalists stood to receive £900,000 minimum, the winners earned £1.8 million - is this 1.8m for the winners, 0.9m for the loosers
Security at Wembley Stadium was tightened in the wake of the Manchester Arena bombing; as a security measure Arsenal cancelled a screening - no big deal by "security" x 2...maybe "as a precaution"
More later, but leaning support Ceoil (talk) 10:12, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil addressed/responded to those points above. Thanks again. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:47, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It was the 136th FA Cup final overall and the showpiece match of English football's primary cup competition, the Football Association Challenge Cup (FA Cup), organised by the Football Association (FA). - This needs to be split as the tense is strange: The 136th bit gives the game's lineage, while the "showpiece match" presumably applies to every FA final...ie it somehow impies that the 135th final was not a showpiece. Either way, would the whole showpiece thing not be better for the article body than lead, as FA Cup is already blue.
I removed that. Never been keen, just sticking to fact. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 19:59, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We say "match" and "game" alternatively, a bit like band and group for music articles. Personally prefer match, but not my call.
I work hard to avoid repetition (and thanks for picking up on one I missed above!) so this works just fine for me. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 19:59, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The "on x minutes" construct appears frequently, and though I dont read sports pages or books, reads odd. Should On 68 minutes, Victor Moses fell in the Arsenal penalty area be eg "Victor Moses fell in the Arsenal penalty area during the 68th minute"? Not a deal breaker.
On X minutes is the same as In the Xth minute, and once again it's just to provide varied prose. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 19:59, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sources all seem RS, and citations are consistently formatted.
The breath of sources implies that the article is comprehensive, and I can't think of any gaps in coverage. Ceoil (talk) 19:39, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil cheers, I appreciate the review very much. I've addressed those final points. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 19:59, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Grand. On the basis of the above, am happy to Support. Ceoil (talk) 20:03, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Amakuru

I am going to do a review of this in the next couple of days, but somewhat busy at this precise moment. So please don't close it just yet! — Amakuru (talk) 16:18, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh wow, like buses! Perhaps the co-oords should make these ominous threats earlier and more frequently! Cheers! The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 17:01, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'm a bus that was stuck at the bus-stop for two days, but time to set off now. Structure, sourcing and completeness all seem to be there as usual, just a few minor points:

Route to the final:

"to see Arsenal win 5–0" - people do say this, obviously, but it sounds very slightly odd here; was it Walcott who saw them winning? Could rephrase to something like "completing a 5–0 win for Arsenal"
"they faced fellow Premier League Southampton" - we can say "Premier League Southampton" as a title, but sounds odd with the "fellow" in front; maybe insert "club" or "team" after Premier League?
"at St Mary's Stadium." - technically haven't been told Arsenal's home ground yet, so unless you follow the link you wouldn't know immediately that Arsenal were the away team here.
"At Gander Green Lane" - venue of infamy 😎

Fo sho. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 21:13, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"quarter-finals" ... "semi-final" - is there a singular/plural mismatch here?
"The home side took the lead through Pedro" - maybe a comma after Pedro to help it scan? At first I thought "Pedro and Michy Batshuayi" were a pair of brothers...
"Three minutes later Tom Nicholls" - add a comma after later, for consistency with other phrases of this type
Should we put "no wrap" around the scores? I just noticed 2–0 straddling two lines and it looked a bit odd
Link to Header (association football) on first usage

Pre-match:

"and were beaten seven times" - perhaps insert "in the final", to be sure this doesn't refer to elimination in earlier rounds
"Wenger admitted his team were outsiders for the final" - this doesn't seem consistent with what he said in the next sentence, "it's quite even or maybe Chelsea are ahead"; "outsiders" seems more extreme than that.
"Chelsea and Arsenal were expected to line up in a 3–4–3 formation" - it seems a bit superfluous to say what they were expected to do beforehand. Maybe instead say what the actual formations were at the start of the match summary.
"distributed to the "football family which..." - maybe attribute this to the FA?
"BBC One provided the free-to-air coverage and BT Sport 2 was the pay-TV alternative" - was there any difference between the two offerings? e.g. Would one get more features by within it on BT?

Different commentators I expect... The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 21:13, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Prince William, Andy Burnham, the Mayor of Greater Manchester and FA chairman Greg Clarke" - this might be confused for four different people; also not sure the Mayor link is necessary. Maybe rephrase to "Prince William, Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham and FA chairman Greg Clarke..."

Match summary:

"due to Ramsey ... due to Ramsey" - repetition
"Ramsey was shown the first yellow card of the match" - do we know what for?

Doesn't say... The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 21:13, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Post-match:

"Due to the circumstances surrounding his appearance" - I was initially confused by this sentence as to whom it was referring, given that the name of the player is in the italicised title; it might not be repetitious to include "Mertesacker's" instead of "his", but up to you.

That's about it. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 11:52, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers Amakuru, I'll get to these presently. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:53, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Amakuru all addressed (I hope). Let me know what you think. Cheers for the comments! The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 21:11, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good to me. Thanks for the quick turnaround. Happy to support. — Amakuru (talk) 08:13, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 12:20, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.