Vargmali

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About secularism and laicism

Greetings, the word secular is used in here.[1] While I understand that in Albanian the word is "Shtet laik", in English apparently "Laicism" refers to French secularism.—Epicurus B. ^{(Not my talk page)} 15:30, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

That is from 1991 and is outdated.This is the official new 1998 and current version [2].Also the word ``laicism´´does not refer only to France but all other countries with strict secularism(like Turkey according to the wikipage).Albania does follow the a strict model of secularism so the concept ``Laïcité´´ applies Vargmali (talk) 20:22, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

According to The Free Dictionary "Laicism" refers to:

• 1. the nonclerical, or secular, control of political and social institutions in a society.

• 2. lay participation in church matters. Cf. clericalism. — laity, n.

As we can see, it does not denote a stronger or stricter form of secularism and per MOS:FOREIGN we are obligated to use the more English out of the two words and that is "secular state". I believe this resolves the matter at hand.—Epicurus B. ^{(Not my talk page)} 08:19, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry about the Sali Berisha confusion

I see now that Edi Rama is PM, and then the cabinet gets assembled over the next few days, like how the US President takes office and then the Senate confirms the cabinet. Everything should be fixed now. Dralwik|^{Have a Chat} 18:49, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

No problem the albanian articles are just too problematic Vargmali (talk) 07:16, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

2011 census

Alo. Do you know of any sources we could use that criticize the 2011 census for underrepresenting the number of irreligious/atheist people in Albania? I've heard a lot about this from other people and it makes sense, but I can't find any source online that says it. Thanks, --Yalens (talk) 05:14, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Hello there. There is this article in Albanian http://www.gazetatema.net/web/2012/12/19/censusi-shume-prej-pyetjeve-plotesoheshin-nga-vete-anketuesit/ , I quote the census taker from the article: "During the filling of the census questionare only questions about the name, birthday, profession where asked. The rest we filled ourself. While I used a pen other census takers used pencils. Some of the results where changed even in the presence of both the controllers and the census takers". I would also like two other personal things. My grandfather was a census taker himself and confirmed the newspaper report and the bias against nonreligious people, and my family had some bad situation with the census taker. The census taker asked for my mother for my family's religion (the family member could say what he wanted if the others were not present). After my mother said twice that my family was not religious(the truth) the census taker said "since you are from X region you must probably be Y religion" and filled it with what he wanted. Now that was not just rude but also illegal and unconstitutional. Vargmali (talk) 01:52, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the link :). For the sentence "Ndërsa për sa i përket pyetjes së fesë, anketuesi shprehet: "Ua rendisja vetë, sepse duhet të plotësonim vetë këtë pyetje", I actually have a translation question. I notice that plotësonim vetë (we ourselves will complete) is in the first person plural, but is this an inclusive we or an exclusive we (i.e. does it mean "we the citizens of Albania, both census takers and registers" or "we, the census takers, not you registers"?)? I suspect its the latter, but I thought I'd ask a native speaker- it definitely makes a difference as to how it's interpreted.

And yeah, that sort of stuff is basically what I've been hearing from people (and that some people who are atheist are just labeled as "Muslims"/"Christians" by the census taker because of their last name like Hoxha, Prifti, Dervishi or etc...). But I can't put that on wiki because I don't have a published saying so, so it'd be OR. --Yalens (talk) 20:52, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

The sentence is very uncertain even in Albanian. But also think it is the "we, the census takers, not you registers" but still the registers would fill them up again with pens since the census-takers would do it with only pencils. Censuses in Balkans become very politicized and problematic and they tend to lack credibility. In Kosovo there were almost no atheist in the census since the same name/religion policy was applied. Even in in developed countries there are some issues like a family member filling the questionare for the whole family. There is no published material for that since even atheist are expected to be a "part religious tradition", which is kinda funny since Albania is one the most secular country in the world. Even we who live here don't understand ourselves at all. Vargmali (talk) 13:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Rama katolik!

Përshëndetje Vargmali!

Nga ajo që unë kuptova është se ai ka pohuar në Vatikan jo se vetëm është pagëzuar, por se është katolik! Kjo ishte edhe shkaku i pyetjes mbi besimin personal të kryeministrit. [3] --Mr. Bunker (talk) 22:29, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Po është kontradiktore ajo me atë që deklaroi zyrtarisht në Bajram. Mbase e kishte siç e thonë rëndomtë ketu në Shqipëri që "jam nga familie katolike/muslimane/ortodokse" por nuk besoj. [4] Vargmali (talk) 12:10, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Pse është e hera e parë që një politikan në Shqipëri thotë gjëra kontradiktore?! U çudita edhe unë ku doli katolik, pasi në Durrës Ramët janë të njohur si pjesë e rëndësishme e ortodoksisë së qytetit, e madje shumë klerik. Mendoj se deri në një sqarim të radhës duhen lënë te dyja. --Mr. Bunker (talk) 14:06, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Nuk është hera e parë për brenda 3 muajsh edhe feja ka qënë tabu. Unë them ta heqim fare fenë edhe ta sqarojmë te jeta personale që mos të duket keq me 2 përcaktime kontradiktore. Vargmali (talk) 14:32, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

IMPORTANT DELETION OF SOURCES IN THE CHAM ALBANIANS ARTICLE BY ALEXIKOUA- Need assistance

Hi Vargmali

Recently i rewrote part of the article in relation to the Cham Albanians, by adding many important (western) sources that have not been accessible to many. They are by Western scholars who have done fieldwork in Thesprotia, accessed the Greek government archive, non impartial nineteenth century observers of the situation. In the article i included sources that one were not Albanian (as Albanian sources are accused of being biased and in-factual by Greek editors). I included in the article, academics that were importantly of Greek heritage. I also included in the footnotes the relevant pieces of information of where that information came from to prevent a deletion and have a serious discussion. Yet when i came to the article, all i saw was complete deletion !!! I was accused of POV !!! I ask, is this how wikipedia works, that when a credible source/s is given, it gets deleted without even proper discussion ? I also think my wording did not in any way produce a biased outcome. I am concerned that is this the type of quality that goes on wikipedia ? I am currently in postgraduate studies, and stifling of discussion is unacceptable. It’s about scholarly debate. I still don't understand how i was pushing POV. For example, in the section about Chams today in Greece, i came across sources that have encountered Orthodox Albanian speaking populations. There also still exists a Albanian Muslim Cham community. Yet that got deleted. Voltaire once said "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it". I asked Alexikoua to justify each and everyone one of her deletions ? Otherwise she is pushing POV ! I request your assistance for Cham Albanians page. The same thing happened with the Ioannina page. Please see both as you are a very experienced editor.

Resnjari (talk) 05:53, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Hello Resnjari, I did read the edits you made and did find it unfortunate that Alexikoua deleted them. Normally when conflict arises it get's debated in the talk page betwen editors. The problem here in wikipedia is that more experienced editors like Alexikoua are thought to be "credible" by the admins and most users. This happens in many articles and not just this one. I would suggest for you only to do small edtis at the time and to discuss them one by one. If you are lucky you will gain the support of other editors. One has to be very paitent here and take things slowly. I will see what I can do about Alexikoua, but I have not been very active in Wiki lately for personal reasons. Still don't get demotivated please. We need editors like you here who can get field work done. The article for Albanians in Kosovo for example is atrocious. You can also ask https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/User:Epicurus_B. for help if you want. Vargmali (talk) 18:04, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

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Irreligion in Albania

I've been working on that page. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on its current state, and what can be done despite a poverty of sources in the area to expand it. Additionally, I came across the stat that some 76% of Albanian youth regard religion as unimportant versus numbers in the 50s for their elders [[5]] but the source linked doesn't load for me, and I can't find the age breakdown on 2008 Gallup anywhere-- do you know where to find it? Thanks. --Yalens (talk) 19:25, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello there Yalens, the topic in question does interest me in great length I do have some sources that we could add, but I wanted to ask you if you use any other social media since I would like to discuss the topic in more detail considering the limitations of wikipedia talking pages. Vargmali (talk) 15:36, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

[Sure, you can email me.] Sorry I didn't see this until now. --Yalens (talk) 17:34, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Religion in the Netherlands

Please explain your revert to Chaserockstar. They reverted my note, and I suppose they don't want to listen, but you owe it to other editors as well--your revert also was unexplained, and didn't even specify it was a revert. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 20:30, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Hello Drmies! I forgot to put the explanation there the first time, but now I added an English source for the users to verify and I explaned my previous edit in a new one. Now will try to talk to Chaserockstar. I hope that suffices. Vargmali (talk) 06:17, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks; I appreciate it. Drmies (talk) 12:20, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

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Requesting input and expansion support

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Please do have a look at upcoming articles Draft:Ex-Muslims. If topics interest you then do contribute towards expansion of the same. We are also looking for inputs @ Draft talk:Ex-Muslims#Next ?

Thanks and regards

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Albanian census

Hey, long time no see. Hope you have been well. Do you have information when the census in Albania starts? Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:46, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Hey there Ktrimi, I have been busy with my life and things going into unexpected ways. I hope I will have more time for Wikipedia in future. As for the Census, I have been following it pretty closely, officially it is supposed to start in October 2022. Originally it was October 2020, but that plan was scrapped officially because of Covid-19 and the earthquake, unofficially I would speculate that they were quite unprepared. Currently there is a pilot census (the second one after 2020) underway in some municipalities, but unfortunately INSTAT is not sharing any info on those results. As of now there is no official final questionnaire as far as INSTAT has told me, but one draft from 2020 looks basically the same as the 2011 one. Vargmali (talk) 19:16, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Interesting. I have heard that some people from INSTAT are doing some very limited surveys in some settlements as "prove para censusit". I can't wait until I see the result about the total population of the country. The media is discussing immigration and aging population every day, the topic has become a major concern. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:27, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

I suspect we will see a massive population decline, a data journalist that I follow said it could reach as low as 2.4 million. Basically all educated young people are trying to leave Albania from my experience, the brain drain is crazy. Vargmali (talk) 20:52, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Frankly, I suspect that the government will manipulate the number to make the population look higher than it really is. I know many people, especially from villages, who live abroad but were counted as living in Albania in the last census. You know, in Albania dead people "vote" in elections :P Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:02, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing to be honest, hopefully however it will be leaked before more damage can be done. I do not trust INSTAT, even though their data is better than most institutions. Vargmali (talk) 21:21, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

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Ways to improve Class voting

Hello, Vargmali,

Thank you for creating Class voting.

I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:

It looks like a highly-relevant topic, but I note that the references aren't particularly modern. It would be great for readers to have a more modern view. Remember also that the tone should be to a broader audience than a purely academic one.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|Klbrain}}. Remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.

Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

Klbrain (talk) 23:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello Kibran,

I am still working on the article, I will include some more contemporary debates which include modern sources further down the article.

I appreciate the feedback though about the academic tone. I will try to simplify some bits of it.

All the best, Vargmali (talk) 10:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Hey @Klbrain:

I have made some changes and additions. If you have any further suggestions I would appreciate it.

All the best.

Vargmali (talk) 11:11, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

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