User talk:Rochelimit/Archive 1

Welcome!

Some cookies to welcome you!

Welcome to Wikipedia, Rochelimit! I am Marek69 and have been editing Wikipedia for quite some time. I just wanted to say hi and welcome you to Wikipedia! If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on my talk page or by typing {{helpme}} at the bottom of this page. I love to help new users, so don't be afraid to leave a message! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• Introduction
• The five pillars of Wikipedia
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• How to write a great article

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Oh yeah, I almost forgot, when you post on talk pages you should sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); that should automatically produce your username and the date after your post. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome!

Marek.69 ^talk 19:18, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

re: your message

Hi Rochelimit, I've left a reply to your message on my talk page -- Marek.69 ^talk 21:15, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Rochelimit (talk) 20:50, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes thanks alot, I've read it already. I'm still very new here, still confused. I hope you can read my reply to your comment here, I don't know exactly how is your mechanism on tracking me. Once again, thanks. Rochelimit (talk) 21:28, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

new addition: table for Jakarta article - Administration

Dear Marek69, or whoever read this

I added a new table in http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Jakarta#Administration , but the number of the table is not in numeric format. I have trouble trying to apply the numeric format (USA type). Can you help me fix this? Also the source link provided in the head of the table is actually the same link, is there away to make the reference number [39], [39], [39] instead of [39], [40], [41] Rochelimit (talk) 00:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by numeric format (they show up as regular numbers to me). To have the same source, instead of <ref>Reference</ref>, change it to <ref name="Name here"></ref>. THen for the second time you use it, just put the <ref name="Name here"></ref> and that's all.  fetchcomms☛ 00:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you mean numeric formatting like you would find in Microsoft Excel and other spreadsheet programs? Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 01:02, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I mean I wanted the number to have the US format, with commas in between the numbers, and also make the numbers aligned to the right. Can you help me do this please? I am very new with HTML format.

I can try. Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 01:18, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks alot!

First disagreement, deleted edit for no apparent reason

Link http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/User_talk:Merbabu#Why_do_you_delete_the_flags_of_the_Sister_City_in_Jakarta.3F

Suggestion to replace a bad quality picture with good quality picture

{{helpme}} Dear loyal Wikipedians,

Is there a template that suggest people to replace a bad quality picture with a better quality picture? Thank you, --Rochelimit (talk) 00:49, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Why not replace them yourself? --Tyw7  (Talk • Contributions) 00:55, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

There is a template on commons, if the file resides there...you can find it at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Provide_better_quality. Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 00:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you mean {{imagereplaced}}? I can't find a template like the above on wiki. But nobody's stopping you from creating one. File:Grin.gif--Tyw7  (Talk • Contributions) 00:58, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually I saw somebody post an image of a cityscape of Jakarta, but the resolution is too low. As I am not living in Jakarta, I was thinking maybe it's better to ask people to replace the current image with a better picture. Then I was thinking, maybe there is a template for this function . . . okay Ks0stm got the point, but I have no idea how to use that template. Probably it's better to leave the picture alone that way until somebody replace it with a better picture? Rochelimit (talk) 01:14, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

To make it easy, I would leave the image and ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indonesia and on the talk page of the original uploader if anyone living in the city can take a higher quality picture. Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 01:31, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Wise suggestion, thanks a lot! :) Rochelimit (talk) 01:47, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Image that doesn't follow default template

Today I found many changes in Jakarta article. It is not vandalism, some are good changes, but some are bothering me: the default introduction image and the cityscape, plus an image with no link. The intention is good but the action is reckless. I already talk with the user Mikael07 (talk) and revert necessary changes. I hope he will read some of the basic rules of Wikipedia first and make good changes, because I see there is a potential for a good image contributor. Rochelimit (talk) 10:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

re: your message

Hi Rochelimit, Thank you for your message. I've left you a reply on my talk page -- Marek.69 ^talk 22:14, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry if I don't get back to you straight away Rochelimit, but unfortunately I have an intermittent internet connection at the moment. :-(

Meanwhile, you may want to add your opinion to this current discussion. -- Marek.69 ^talk 22:22, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

oh my big apologize

before judging my neutral point of view.....

i was just wondering if there member doesnt want to improve the quality of the article....

if you want to improve the article, why dont you do it yourself instead of deleting my work ?

i just want to improve the article as the picture was so bad, and if you want to change my picture with the new one, why dont you make the better picture then change mine, and still use mine as the picture until you put another new one, it's better than you still want the old bad picture.......

so, the point, keep my picture in it until you find the new one..... but dont use the old picture, it just gives the poor description about Jakarta.......

by the way, i manage my neutral point of view as i never delete the important material of that article even though it's bad condition of Jakarta, example the flood, slum and dump —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikael07 (talk • contribs) 03:48, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

and

by the way.... i agree to keep the old picture in the introductory until you find the better one, yet i renew the pictures in the tourism and attraction plus the cityscape, i hope you not to delete it again, too many old fashioned picture in Jakarta's article, Malaysian people will be laugh looking that, and i want you to make my picture get its link as you said, i dunno how to make a link—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikael07 (talk • contribs) 03:52, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I do improve articles, I just keep it to myself. Thanks for reviewing my comment and changing the picture. I have to say the picture now is better than the previous one, although I still prefer if you post a photo with a better resolution one (see New York City cityscape). But in the mean time, let's keep it that way. The previous picture you replaced actually has better resolution than your picture now, and it is up-to-date.

I suggest to keep the Malaysia problem to yourself, although that problem probably can be a good push for Indonesian people to upgrade the article (professionally) :)

and remember to sign your posts by typing four tildes. BTW I don't understand what link? Thanks! Rochelimit (talk) 05:33, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

you are Indonesia

oh i have just known you are Indonesian...

actually, i am not Indonesian yet i like your country very much..... my name is Andrew i am Argentinian, now i am working in Toronto as advisor in IMF, i know Indonesia in late 90's when it was hit by financial crises yet, i am proud of your country, having numerous of cultures and pluralism religions....

i never see in my life the pluralism like what in Indonesia is, people with majority of Islam yet they share their life with other religious groups peacefully despite sometimes tension happening over there

the things i confuse when i read both Indonesia and Jakarta's article is the lack of data it has, Indonesia is a big country still, the article shows it just like a small country, also the pictures are really old fashioned, i visited Jakarta in 2008 and it was unlike what i saw and read in wikipedia, this site hide the truth a lot........

by the way, what is your suggestion for me, i added three pictures, one as the cityscape, and two in the tourism section........ Mikael07 (talk) 12:45, 17 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikael07 (talk • contribs) 12:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

hey... by the way... i need your help

once you said to me to make a gallery in Jakarta's article if i want to post Jakarta's pictures.....

i really want it, but it must be difficult, how if you help me do that ??, i send you some of Jakarta's picture i have taken from flickr.com, (it's free and allowed for wikipedia, i read the rules) and you make the Jakarta gallery....

if you want, just tell me then i give you my picture Mikael07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikael07 (talk • contribs) 13:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I NEED YOUR HELP

could you please help me add the license and author in the pictures i uploaded...........

i dunno how to add that with the summary box...

i give you the picture i uploaded and you fix the license.... here i tell you

• Dayak Girl, Indonesia.jpg : was taken from flickr.com and the author is hazize
• Jakarta at moonlight.jpg : was taken from my flash disk, it was my own work

please, i dont know how to fix the picture that have already been upoladed............... plz help me —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikael07 (talk • contribs) 14:13, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

First Image Upload

I uploaded a new image in my page for the first time. I wonder how the community will response ...

Flags

Yes indeed - the WP:PRECEDENCE is a missing link - ie, there is no such rule/guideline. That’s my point. Speaking generally, and not necessarily about flags, there is a lot of good stuff on wikipedia and there is a lot of less good stuff on wikipedia – but good or bad, the existence of “other stuff” in other articles doesn’t determine what happens in one article.

You say my comments on the appearance of flags is subjective – well, can’t the same be said of yours? You have not asserted why flags improve the article, you’ve only said they are used elsewhere. You need to show why they are needed. There should be nothing superfluous on wikipedia.

But thank you for being consistently civil and willing to hear others’ points of view, rather than being combative. Too many aren't like this, and it ultimately undermines the encyclopedia. Approaches like yours make working on wikipedia much more productive and is much appreciated. Regards --Merbabu (talk) 00:31, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

First Article: Bendungan Hilir

Today I've made my first article: Bendungan Hilir, a village of a subdistrict of a city of Jakarta. It is meant to be the starting point for a comprehensive list of Jakarta's village or Kelurahan. I hope somebody will help me organizing the category. Will ask for help after my 1 whole week off. Or maybe I'll just cancel that article and instead merge it all under the article of its subdistrict. Rochelimit (talk) 05:49, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I regret this article so much, Satusuro was right. --Rochelimit (talk) 22:26, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

First Reference for an Article Stub

Today I'm adding a reference to a stub article http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Tanah_Abang. The reference is still rather messy, as in that there may be a better template to show a reference from a web. Will ask for help after my 1 whole week off. I might even merged some article, because Jakarta Subdistricts article are way too 'stubby'.Rochelimit (talk) 05:49, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

First Map

I've made a map for Jakarta (http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Jakarta_subdistrict.png). I know it's supposed to be in SVG format, but I want to move "slowly", whatever that means. Also make some improvement in Jakarta#Administration. Have a dilemma whether to put administration together as a beginning in the cityscape section, or just leave it that way. The answer will probably come after there is a real article about Jakarta's administration, as in how the mayor/governor work, etc. Until that time, maybe just leave it that way. Rochelimit (talk) 05:54, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Well done on the map. There is a shortage of maps of Jakarta on Wikipedia and this goes some way to addressing that. Any plans for any more? :-) Davidelit (Talk) 16:37, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I am looking for a map like yours (http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Jakarta_subdistrict.png) that shows Kecamatan borders overlayed onto a Google Map. Do you know of one? What source did you use to draw those borders? (Actually, I just want to see exact Kecamatan borders overlayed onto any precise street map of Jakarta. Doesn't have to be a Google Map but that is ideal) Surlyhacker (talk) 11:54, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, actually I don't want just Kecamatan borders but also Kelurahan borders. Surlyhacker (talk) 12:00, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

First Flickr Upload

Today, after a chit chat with Yohanes Budiyanto, I decided to upload one of his picture (http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Jakarta_Skyline_Part_2.jpg) into Wikimedia Commons and use it as the picture of Jakarta's cityscape. The licensing has been carefully monitored, and later a bot will verify the picture. I hope there will be no problem. It's a nice process though, enjoy every bit of it --Rochelimit (talk) 19:30, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Some issues

It is a very common feature of new editors doing articles to do with Indonesia - to want to create a kelurahan article (I lived in one and visited a few in central java a very long time ago - but I have not bothered to even think of creating stubs for such locations) - It might not seem much but it is a serious issue is - we have kecamatan articles for almost of all Indonesia- it is that are really the bottom of the hierarchy - unless the keluruhan has something that cries out with WP:N and WP:V and WP:RS - and even then - the issue of how many there are in Indonesia is a question - are we really ever going to get adequate information about every keluruhan? Just be thankful the project is not as strongly policy policed as it was a year or two ago - it would have been up for Afd within a day. Also note what I do to the stub. It would be appreciated if you could atttend to such detail when creating such stubs- thanks SatuSuro 13:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Indeed I agree. I am actually planning to move the Bendungan Hilir article in the near future to the subjected kecamatan article. This way, I hope I will remove the stub status of the kecamatan Tanah Abang article. Do you want to help me move the Bendungan Hilir article to the subjected Kecamatan? (Tanah Abang), or I suggest to leave it that way, because 10 days from now I will move Bendungan Hilir to Tanah Abang myself, as well as moving the important references. And I will expand the rest of the Kelurahan article.

I have to say Benhil area is actually a real historic area founded by the Dutch in the late 19th century as a residential area. It has an interesting typology of Arabic, Chinese, Dutch, and local building. It is heavily studied in urban planning. So I have to say this Benhil area is rather special as a kelurahan. --Rochelimit (talk) 19:19, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe but you need to understand WP:N, WP:V and WP:RS (especially WP:NOT in the face of that - my big toe is an interesting confluence of various things too - you must be able to get things in perspective! Have a safe christmas :) SatuSuro 00:54, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the input. I'm a bit bothered with your statement though: I lived in one and visited a few in central java a very long time ago. lol you will always lived in a kelurahan because it's a political division, equivalent to for example a neighborhood in Canada (sample: [[1]]). Yes I won't make every kelurahan in Jakarta (and not even in Central Java), but some of the kelurahan in Central Jakarta and North Jakarta are formed by a unique political division since the 17th century, and we did an extensive research on it (back then in my bachelor). I'm aware that some of this info is important (especially in the field of urban planning). I can put all the list, since I have the data, although it will be all red links.

One more thing (off topic), there is this translation issues... kecamatan: subdistrict (ex district), kelurahan: village (ex subdistrict). Until now I can't find a verification that the translation of kecamatan is subdistrict, and that district is a "former" term. Most of (updated-2009) government statistic book use the terms district for kecamatan and subdistrict for kelurahan, which contradicts with the one in Wiki. Even the 2009 Map of Jakarta use the term that Wiki define as "former". I have no idea who started the idea to translate kelurahan into village. I'm planning to put this in a discussion, but I don't know ... that issue is like already rooted in Wiki, and nobody seems to touch the issue. Kinda frustrating really.

Until then, I will be off for more than a week. You too have a safe Xmas --Rochelimit (talk) 06:13, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

When you get back - there will be plenty of time to go through it all - have a safe time off wiki SatuSuro 06:28, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

hey...

in order not to make any mistakes again, i just want to ask you to add the picture of "Dayak Girl" in Indonesia's article, try to find the good one, put it in the demography section, and Jakarta's picture in the economy section, the pictures will be deleted in 21 th december... today.....

a lot of thanks.... i will prefer giving this to better people than me, i will just make the trouble in the article.... so, can you add two pictures i mentioned in the Indonesia's article--Mikael07 (talk) 01:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the understanding. Just give me any request then I will try to "filter" it. I'm planning to put a better picture than a mere "Dayak girl", I'm planning to put a collage of different races in Indonesia: Minang (the maternal), Java (the kingdom-ish), Dayak (the headhunter), Aceh (the muslim), Bali (the hindu), Tengger (the mount worshipper), etc. BTW somebody has already put a picture of Jakarta in economy and a Minang girl in Demographic. I will replace the Minang girl picture probably.

Have a nice christmas in Toronto! PS: I've made a thorough research on Buenos Aires in our faculty. I've been there, it's a great city. I really love the enthusiasm of the people to improve and to be proud of the city (despite the infamous government :D). When I was there, I actually feel at home in Jakarta -- Rochelimit (talk) 06:20, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

hey

i have already put the Jakarta picture in the economy section, i used the pic from wikimedia, so it definitely has the license, right ?

yeah, you need to change the Minagkabau old-fashioned, may be with Dayak girl picture, find the nice picture, thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikael07 (talk • contribs) 11:06, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

'My article'

On your user page - be very very careful - they are not - see WP:OWN - you did not start them and will not finish them - please understand what that means in english. SatuSuro 00:39, 30 December 2009 (UTC) If I have not explained sufficiently - the articles are well established - and do not actually 'belong' to anyone - so when you put 'My' - the whole of wikipedia is basically a work in process - so it would be more correct to indicate them as 'current interest' - or something you want to attend to - but never 'own' - also 'over-focusing' on any one article can restrict your focus upon what the wider wikipedia is all about! - also remember to always sign talk pages messages SatuSuro 00:54, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

okay thanks for the input, I really treat my user page as something private. Maybe I should be more aware that people read my user page ... Happy Holiday --Rochelimit (talk) 09:49, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

nominate Jakarta History Museum

hey,

since you expanded the article Jakarta History Museum, you might wanna think about nominating it Template:Did you know. cheers Gryffindor (talk) 09:15, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi, how do you do it? did you just copy paste it in the article? above the article or below the article? I'm a bit confused, can you probably help me nominate it so I can learn the template from your intervention? :)--Rochelimit (talk) 09:45, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Go here and follow the steps Template talk:Did you know, it's actually quite simple. Gryffindor (talk) 09:55, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

After grueling for a while with my slow brain, finally I manage to nominate two of my article expansion to Wiki, thanks! :) --Rochelimit (talk) 10:17, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Excellent! hope it works and the articles get nominated. Best is to check the nomination page regularly in case you get comments and feedback from other users on what might be missing or what else to improve. Good luck! Gryffindor (talk) 10:30, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Bromo Tengger Semeru National Park

Hello Rochelimit and Welcome to Wikipedia! Nice to see your work on expanding the Bromo Tengger Semeru National Park article. As you expanded the article more than 5x, it can be nominated for the main page DYK. If you need assistance I can help. There are a few things which need clarification as noted on the article's talk page. If you could address these, as you have access to Indonesian sources, that would improve the article. cheers, Elekhh (talk) 08:59, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

• Responded here.
  • Hi, finally the article is in the DYK Queue, so it should appear on the main page in the next couple of days. Thanks for clarifying all those issues I raised. If you would like to collaborate on any other Indonesian national park article(s), you can count on me. :) Elekhh (talk) 07:43, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
    • Amazing, thanks! Will inform you of any national park expansion or creation --Rochelimit (talk) 11:31, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

DYK - Maritime Museum (Indonesia)

Hello! Your submission of Maritime Museum (Indonesia) at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Sasata (talk) 16:38, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Aceh Tsunami Museum

Hello! I came upon your article about the Aceh Tsunami Museum. I liked the article so much that I nominated it for DYK consideration: [2]. Good luck!

Thank you, I really appreciate it. There is no picture though --Rochelimit (talk) 21:45, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

re: your message

Hi Rochelimit, I've left a reply to your message on my talk page -- Marek.69 ^talk 03:08, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Wayang Museum

Hello! Your submission of Wayang Museum at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Calmer Waters 02:57, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Hellooo....

Rochelimit, good day, how do you do ?

let me introduce my name, i am Sweetmistery, now i live in Canary islands, Spain.....

i wish i can call you if i need some helps, okey ! thanks,--Sweetmistery (talk) 07:06, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi sweetmistery, I'm also relatively new, but I will help you as much as I can. Welcome !!! :) --Rochelimit (talk) 08:15, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

thanks...what a kind ;)

thanks, yes, i must need you help for sometimes, by the way, where do you come from ? --Sweetmistery (talk) 13:55, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Did You Know problem

Hello! Your submission of Ambarawa Railway Museum at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Note: I always leave approvals to others. Art LaPella (talk) 03:30, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Jakarta History Museum

On January 9, 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Jakarta History Museum, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 12:00, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Wayang Museum

On January 9, 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Wayang Museum, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 18:00, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I just notice this, I didn't see the Jakarta History Museum though. Thanks for informing me about this :) --Rochelimit (talk) 19:24, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

What dont you understand

When lists have red links removed? SatuSuro 15:52, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me? elaborate please? --Rochelimit (talk) 23:43, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=List_of_museums_and_cultural_institutions_in_Indonesia&action=historysubmit&diff=337011036&oldid=336890979 - could you say why you add a red link to a cleanedup up list? Please explain what you dont understand about cleaned up lists SatuSuro 02:17, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I change the link because it is supposed to be linked to a Textile Museum in Jakarta, since the previous link is linked to another Textile Museum not related to Jakarta. I have a plan to create an article for the real textile museum in Jakarta, so that can probably be a good start.

I also noticed that this article has been majorly "cleaned", not only the red links are deleted, also the black non-links are deleted. It would be nice if I can be informed before doing such major deletion.--Rochelimit (talk) 02:40, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

You dont WP:OWN articles - worse thing happen than that - get used to it - put it on watch and read up more about what WP:ABOUT and WP:NOT rather than complaining SatuSuro 07:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Who's complaining? I'm just asking that it would be nice to inform me about something, like new DYK article, or major improvement in articles; so that in the future we probably can collaborate. I'm not complaining or mad at all. I don't even think that the article is my article. Actually, I'm confused because your mail seems to be that you are angry or something? My apology then if you are insulted by something? It's good to be informed about something, but if your message is short and not clear, it is confusing. Maybe next time use a clear message, that will be helpful.--Rochelimit (talk) 15:13, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I have no negative or angry things at all about and of this or you personally - it seems you have a limited understanding of wikipedia - I offer some links - if you have the articles you work on - well sometimes some people are not polite here - just enjoy it when people do help and are nice and pleasant -

As for It would be nice if I can be informed before doing such major deletion - when lists are created in the Indonesian project - the currently active editors tend to try to keep the lists with items linking to articles that exist - otherwise it is very hard to detect 'hoax' and 'non-notable' names that creep into lists - the project has a lot that not on any one editors watch list - and as a result Category:Indonesia-related lists has many that have been filled with incorrect and non-notable items - and it takes time to maintain such items - so when possible we try to keep them with linked items only - cheers SatuSuro 15:33, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

OK now I understand. Yes I do have a limited understanding of Wikipedia (I'm only about 2 months since first start editing Wiki articles), that's why I need settled users to help me with improving articles, by doing collaboration, asking help, or asking review and improvements with other settled users like you and other people you can see in my discussion page. I'm all open and willing to listen, but of course if the message is not clear, I don't get anything but misunderstanding. I mean how can I understand this sentence: ==What dont you understand== When lists have red links removed? and then get used to it and rather than complaining, what do you think?

So I'm just asking for a clearer message, that simple. But thanks for the link, and I hope you can handle those 'impolite' users, cause I am not one of them and have no business with them. I'm here to help improving articles, not to debate. Do inform me of any 'event', major article improvements, opinion, nominations, etc. --Rochelimit (talk) 16:01, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Rochelimit

go to Talk:Indonesia, thanks --Sweetmistery (talk) 06:25, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

re: your message

Hi Rochelimit, I've left a reply to your message on my talk page -- Marek.69 ^talk 22:00, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Bromo Tengger Semeru National Park

On January 12, 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Bromo Tengger Semeru National Park, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 00:00, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Amazing :D --Rochelimit (talk) 00:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Well done! SatuSuro 12:48, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Categories

When you choose Museums in Indonesia - it is already a descendant category from Indonesia - there is no need to include parent and descendant categories against the one article - as it then appears to be an article that belongs to Museums and the country. That is why I reverted the Indonesia part - the Museums and List categories are fine - the whole of the Indonesia project is over-categorised with parent/child category mixes that are entirely unnecessary - and which makes a serious issue of duplication - thanks SatuSuro 12:48, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh, sorry about that... --Rochelimit (talk) 21:09, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Nah no need to apologise about that - many experienced users still do it with or without realising - and also you need to expect to find the combination in many places - if you know that the parent and child are definitely sitting next to each other - it is a valid exercise to remove the parent category - but take care! cheers SatuSuro 23:17, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Just a hint: further info at WP:DUPCAT. Elekhh (talk) 00:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Maritime Museum (Indonesia)

On January 13, 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Maritime Museum (Indonesia), which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 00:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Whoa, thanks! --Rochelimit (talk) 11:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

WikiProjects invite

Hi Rochelimit, I see you have a very energetic start into Wikipedia! If you still got spare time and interest, I think you might be interested in WP:WikiProject Architecture and WP:WikiProject Urban studies and planning. Both are a bit sleepy at the moment and would benefit of new active members :). Elekhh (talk) 00:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Most of the Urban studies and planning articles are current researchs that are still going on and changing very fast... but OK, will try my best :D --Rochelimit (talk) 11:38, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe after the national parks :P --Rochelimit (talk) 11:42, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

First initiation for a default template

Today is my first time trying to implement a new default template for a very important article, days of the years' Holiday and observances. Somebody told me it was an abandoned effort, but let see how it goes--Rochelimit (talk) 15:02, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

salam.....

are you Indonesian, salam, saya andiningrat , bisa tidak kamu membantu saya expand the Indonesian stub here !!, dan juga kamu dapat mengajari saya cara mengedit di sini, thanks ya........

stubs i have just meant are :

• Puncak
• Jabodetabek

and some articles about Indonesia, that need improving :

• Makassar
• Surabaya

, thanks......help me for better Indonesia's article--Andiningrat (talk) 11:12, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Halo Andiningrat! I am also relatively new here, so I don't know what I'm capable of :D. Simple word of advice: Stick to the article you are aware of, don't try to expand articles you know nothing about.

I like your idea of improving stub articles. You can try translating id.wikipedia article into en.wikipedia article to improve the en. stubs, but be aware, most of the id.wikipedia article have no references whatsoever (although ya, we are folks who value oral tradition, but in en.wikipedia, book reference is more important).

So try to validate what you find in id.wikipedia before you transfer it to en.wikipedia. There are lots of 'police' in en.wikipedia that continuously watch your activities. If you make a mistake and continuously repeat it, they might banned you.

So happy wiki-ing!!!!:D Inform me if you have any specific problem.

PS: Sorry I don't know much about Puncak, Makassar, and Surabaya. Puncak badly need expansion, yes (and I am a frequent Puncak traveler but know nothing about it). Jabodetabek I think is enough, at least for me, or if you know more about Jabodetabek, please improve it. --Rochelimit (talk) 22:52, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Aceh Tsunami Museum

On January 17, 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Aceh Tsunami Museum, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 18:01, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations! Warrah (talk) 20:17, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Cheers for us :D --Rochelimit (talk) 22:55, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

cheers with my glass of milk :D

Taman Sari

That is a well done article - youre getting better! Good work! SatuSuro 00:27, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

There are many small issues - when you are introducing 'legend has it' 'it is said' - you are introducing material that is unverifiable - and your use of refs suggests that whole prargraphs come from the one ref - there is no sign of Ricklefs (who did the hard work in the archives before all the derivative tourist brochures steal the ideas and stories without attribution) It might look good for a tourism article - but the mix of the 'legend' into the article makes it a problematic article... which way would you prefer - I can point out the issues (I did a lot of photography and research on the place a long time ago -but more about that some other time) and then edit - or the other way around if you would like - up to you SatuSuro 00:40, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Please could you let me know if you might understand what I might mean by redundancies in english? SatuSuro 06:36, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi SatuSuro

I always face that 'it is said' problem while making Indonesian article. Oral traditions and legends are very dominant in Indonesia. The Demang Tegis legend is one of the most popular legend about Taman Sari. But since you've been researching that place, you can edit it to conform the "encyclopedic" standard, but if you feel like you're removing too much information, can u move it to the discussion page as a template please? :)

btw, who/what is Ricklefs?

redundancies? as in too much insignificant infos? --Rochelimit (talk) 06:39, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi - thanks for checking what I mean - problem if you are copying material from websites - some of them - not all - they are not reliable WP:RS and some of the wordings show you are not a native speaker of english - which gives an editor problems - but hey good luck to your hard work!

redundancies means that some information is repeated over and over - and is not needed - and needs to be edited - we do not need 3 or more variants of the name of the place - 2 is enough - the overall argument of the article is good - it gives a well spread overview - but some of the grammar and spelling is problematic - and I would potentially challenge usage of it is said that and legend says - you need almost separate sec=tions for the folklore - I am amazed what javanese can invent around stories - when I lived in Yogya and clambered around the taman sari complex all those years ago and listened to and read these same stories - I would not give them credence in an wikipedia article as fact - they are inventions and need to be treated with great care- maybe ok in tourist brochures - but in an online encyclopedia I would be very careful...

redundancies is both in the repeated information - and also in general style - some sentences could be removed because they are simply taking too long to say something that can be edited.

Overall - good article - needs a lot of close tidying up and less reliance on folklore - if you use it - it needs to be flagged as such - there is no way most folklore or legend can be proved or disproved (which made my research in Yogyakarta an exciting time) - but simple recorded - I will look at the article again soon and leave a message as to how I would deal with the issue - cheers SatuSuro 06:50, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh ok, ya I always have that word repetition problem... so do please edit

ps: I have a terrible cold lol --Rochelimit (talk) 07:08, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

heheh - well you get better then!! - and dont be offended if I hack away later when I am not trying to re-invent the universe :) SatuSuro 07:12, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

this cold kinda makes me moody, so keep ur politeness ok ;) --Rochelimit (talk) 07:13, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Hahah - you just get better - so you can cope with the editing that will happen ok - SatuSuro 07:17, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

• I reviewed the article and I think it has no major structural problems, thus I would encourage you to nominate it for GA. There would be some prose and MOS issues but those can be sorted out also during the one week review process. It is time Indonesia gets a GA! Elekhh (talk) 23:10, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Thanks for telling me about 'Good Article'. I hope I'm doing it right, but I've just nominated the article in History-Archeology subsection, cross my fingers. --Rochelimit (talk) 21:36, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
    • Looks all correct to me. It takes about 1 month in average until somebody comes by to review, but you might be lucky to get a reviewer earlier, since there are not so many nominations in the category. You can use the time for further improving the article of course... Since you nominated it in the History/Archaeology section, expect some meticulous proofing of all historic data :). Elekhh (talk) 01:56, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

BS for you

	The Working Wikipedian's Barnstar
	For efforts in cleaning up the Holidays and observances on the date pages. -- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 16:09, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Taman Sari (Yogyakarta)

Hello, I just wanted to introduce myself and let you know I am glad to be reviewing the article Taman Sari (Yogyakarta) you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. . Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 11:21, 2 April 2010 (UTC) I request your reply within 2 days to the queries about the references, which will enable me to take a GA decision.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 11:24, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello Redtigerxyz. I've read your message, thank you for being the reviewer of Taman Sari (Yogyakarta). I have to warn you though I am really new to the GA nomination feature, so please guide me. My background is urban planning and not particularly archeology. So with this knowledge, and the ability to access certain Indonesian site, I hope I can improve this article. Please leave talkback message if you reply in this page. Wait, I am in my page... lol just kidding :) --Rochelimit (talk) 11:35, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

At first glance, the article is well-written with references, but the references are sadly not up to wiki standards. Please read WP:RS (reliable sources), to get an idea of what type of references would be needed for a GA pass. The best place to start looking for RS would be government sites.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 11:56, 2 April 2010 (UTC) Some books which may be useful:

• http://books.google.co.in/books?id=qhF0NAAACAAJ&dq=Taman+Sari+%28Yogyakarta%29&hl=en&ei=aNu1S6mqMIjDrAfsrLC3DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAA
• http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Br7dQgAACAAJ&dq=Taman+Sari+%28Yogyakarta%29&hl=en&ei=aNu1S6mqMIjDrAfsrLC3DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAQ
• http://books.google.co.in/books?id=jo0yAAAAIAAJ&q=Taman+Sari+%28Yogyakarta%29&dq=Taman+Sari+%28Yogyakarta%29&hl=en&ei=aNu1S6mqMIjDrAfsrLC3DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CFwQ6AEwCA

--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 11:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Also if I was a reviewer - the over reliance on folklore that is inadequately referenced is an issue - it is said that. and folklore says.... is not a very reliable item for an article like that - if you have any Indonesian language capacity at all - there are cerita rakyat books that provide some information about the folkore of yogyakarta if you want help SatuSuro 12:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

One of these may have been used as a source. I'm sure that most of the materials are taken from the second source but I will look into it and try to replace the sources. The cerita rakyat, I don't know how to find a reliable source... (my brother have one as a bonus for buying a cereal, with colorful pictures). I find that most Indonesian people like to tell historic information in a story-like manner, using the word konon or suatu ketika (something like "once upon a time"); to the extent that some people think that the western style of giving information is too rigid, and so they add this whimsy words, which is bad I know. So some of these "folkloric" information can actually be a real information from a real source, but is told in a "once upon a time" manner. So often I'm in a dilemma, I don't even dare to remove it, because this may provide a clue to a real fact. There should be a real scientific source, of course, but for now I couldn't find it. It's hard! they even use once upon a time style in early 20th century colonial buildings in Jakarta (the capital). Maybe if I put these in a different section or change the wording, I dunno. Well let's see how I can go through this. My plan for now is to contact these people in these blogs, and ask them straight, where do they got this information. I might need some help though... --Rochelimit (talk) 19:16, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Turns out some of the important sources are in Javanese... D:.--Rochelimit (talk) 11:24, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

The big sangkalan foot note is not a good idea - the article is about taman sari not the sangkalan - that should actually be in a separate article SatuSuro 11:36, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I would accept Javanese sources, if you convince me they are reliable by giving all details of the sources like publisher, author etc. I am putting the article on hold till Friday (7 days from start of review). Please ensure that references (and other issues, discussed on the GA page) are replaced by RS by then. I will complete the review by Monday. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 11:38, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Today I replaced some unreliable links in Taman Sari. I also mailed the guy who make the Taman Sari blog, who is actually one of the software designers for the 3D Taman Sari education tool. I doubt that he's going to reply my mail though, internet in Indonesia is not a convenient mode for communication. I also elaborate the explanation for sengkalan, which is a Javanese word for chronogram.--Rochelimit (talk) 22:05, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

There is a lot of infos taken from the periplus edition of Java. I have to read the article thoroughly and mention every pages where the information is taken x_x --Rochelimit (talk) 22:13, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Periplus as a source - that is same as blogs - in most case it is derivative, take every care in using it

Groneman - he might be Y or J in old transcriptions of Dutch - but in english he is Isaac - see http://cs.nga.gov.au/Detail.cfm?IRN=197844 - or http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/22176093?q=groneman+isaac&c=book - please note that - cheers SatuSuro 05:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi Rochelimit, I hope you're not dissapointed by this challenge (since I kind of dragged you in to this GA nomination). Maybe a good way to go forward is to remove content which is not appropriately referenced according to GA guidelines (simply move it to one of your sandboxes), as for GA status, the article does not need to be long (many GAs are shorter than this article) or extensively cover all aspects of the subject. You can re-introduce those paragraphs once you obtain reliable references at a later stage as well (and go for the FA :). Elekhh (talk) 08:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi no worries, at least I learn something new :D. I just feel sorry bcoz this week I'm mega busy for other stuffs. I think the reviewer should give me 2 weeks to review this if I work alone. And I don't think I will remove the poorly referenced information though... even if it means that I won't get the GA... I just have to find a good reference for those poorly referenced info.

But the good news is I just found a good French thesis about Taman Sari complete with the historic map of the area (actually I have one, but it's a copyrighted image), which I think will fill in some of the bad references in the article (including the too many periplus source). But I'm really busy this week, so if u can also help me with correcting the references of Taman Sari, and maybe u also speak French? I think I will find good info on page 9 and 10. The article also have a beautiful picture of the Kenongo building in the past, the one that is now still in ruins. http://www.reseau-asie.com/cgi-bin/prog/gateway.cgi?langue=en&password=&email=&dir=myfile_colloque&type=jhg54gfd98gfd4fgd4gfdg&id=47&telecharge_now=1&file=t_44_njotofeillard_helene.pdf --Rochelimit (talk) 13:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Today I reorganize Taman Sari's references again; the blogspot sources are gone now. I try to put the link http://files.setyawara.webnode.com/200000004-1aebe1be6a/SENGKALAN.pdf with 'cite web' but Wiki keeps deleting this link. So I put the mother url where people can access this link. But the website itself doesn't look really convincing as a source... so I'm still looking for a source that explains the sengkalan. And thanks everybody who help me improving this article. --Rochelimit (talk) 19:34, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

There is some problem in filling references page/pages needs filling, not both. see documentation at {{cite book}} --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:33, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I's sorry, I will edit that --Rochelimit (talk) 16:36, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry but GA rules compel me to take a GA decision in a week. Don't be disheartened if the article fails. You can always renominate it for GA. Also, even if I am compelled to fail the article, I assure you that I will help you as much as I can by an unofficial review for a GA re-nomination for this or any other article, if you approach me. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:35, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

ok thank you --Rochelimit (talk) 17:52, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Taman Sari (Yogyakarta) has GA passed. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:33, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

!! Congratulations !! well done! SatuSuro 15:29, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Whoa thank God!! Thanks and cheers everyone, also --Redtigerxyz ^Talk the helpful reviewer!! choose ur drink in commons!!!!! xD --Rochelimit (talk) 22:05, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

currently in Holland--Rochelimit (talk) 22:05, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Need your help

please delete the picture of riot in Jakarta in May 14, 1998 in Jakarta page, that type of picture is not needed to explain Jakarta as demonstrations are happened everywhere--Mikael07 (talk) 10:26, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Missing reference

I am intrigued at what you have managed to uncovered so far - but am suprised that you have not either found or used -

J. Dumarcay Le Taman Sari etude architechturale Bulletin de l'Ecole francaise d'Extreme Orient no.65, 1978 p.135-183

J. Dumarcay Sur la logique symbolique des taman en monde javanais, se reported a l'article pionnier de D. Lombard Jardina a Java Arts Asiatiques number 20, 1969.

Your over-reliance upon Oey's Periplus Java textand the absence of the two Dumarcay articles would leave me consider the article short of indicating what is potentially available...

Oh sorry - I do have access to copies which I could in turn email scans to you sometime if you wanted of the first one (1978) - it has some amazing illustrations - which I dont think we could use :) SatuSuro 01:30, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh really? if I had more time, I would have found that one ... XD, I'm kinda busy, everything is a rush for Taman Sari's reference. BTW is the first one available online? (is it the same as this:? http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/befeo_0336-1519_1978_num_65_2_3916?_Prescripts_Search_isPortletOuvrage=false), but the page number is kinda different. Anyway I can't do anything today, maybe a little, because of an appointment; but thank you for telling me this.--Rochelimit (talk) 06:50, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually Dumarcay is so good, I just have to include it in the refs! thanks for pointing me that out :D --Rochelimit (talk) 07:20, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

-Sorry - you are correct my source had the page numbers confused with another article...

I once did a university research project on the place - and have many photos of it from when I surveyed the place myself  :) - but the photos are unreachable in the short term :( yes you have found the online version - pity my french wasnt better :) SatuSuro 07:43, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

May 20 - EDMD

May 20 is giving me a headache. --Rochelimit (talk) 09:57, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Reorganize

• Good intention but his edit is not consistent and messy. He removes local observances, but sometimes national celebration. Previously he removed independence days of countries, now only the local days, but still sometimes the important national observations such as british armed forces day of june 27. Interestingly he doesn't remove the saint days.--Rochelimit (talk) 10:02, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Holidays and observances guideline

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/User:Rochelimit/Guidelines

There is a need to categorize these amazing variety of world's observations and holidays. The categories are: National day, Julian calendar observances, observations based on Julian calendar (e.g. Russian observations and orthodox lithurgic church), sidereal calendar (e.g. Indian festival that can varies by maximum 2 days), equinoxes and solstices (e.g. may day, jule, lammas), lunar days (jewish, muslim, chinese calendar; not included in days of the year, it's a pity though), nanakshahi calendar, well-established hallmark holiday (talk like a pirate day), days that is celebrated for 3 days maximum (New Year), greco-roman festivities, "the first of monday" days, christian feast days (especially the carnivals), secularized christian feast day (saint james, saint john, saint lucia, etc.), and "day closest to" days (e.g. martin luther king jr. day). --Rochelimit (talk) 21:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

re: your message

Hi Rochelimit, I've left a reply to your message on my talk page -- Marek.69 ^talk 22:22, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Latvian festivals

Hi Rochelimit. Do you have any thoughts on whether ancient Latvian festivals should be included on DOY pages? There seems to be someone who is not a fan of them [3] [4] [5]. You are doing an awesome job cleaning up these sections, and I know you are working on new guidelines for them, so I figured you might have some insight. Cheers. Winston365 (talk) 19:02, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi Winston. Thanks. I already have a thought about the ancient Latvian festivals, but they have a very minimum sources, and the only wiki information that is available is only provided by Latvian mythology article, and even that article has some problems. Until somebody strengthen that article with good references, I can save the festivals from being removed; but for now, that article has no power. For now, I'm categorizing the ancient Latvian festivals the same as Ancient Roman festivals and few Inca festivals. So if somebody removed the article... this is the only "power" that can save the ancient Latvian festivals. And if somebody question the factual accuracy of the festivals by referring to the 'Latvian mythology' article, I cannot say anything.

To be honest, I haven't done any research on the Latvian festivals, except for the Jāņi, which is the most well-documented day of all. I actually think that some diena are extremely minor that the day shouldn't be put in the holidays and observance section. Even I found out that somebody had put a Latvian festival in a wrong date, which questions me more about the accuracy of the these festivals. Also, one of the festival, Jurģi, has an amazingly detailed ritual, but no resources at all.

I think that this Ancient latvian observances need to be made a separate article in wikipedia, not within the 'Latvian mythology' but within a new 'Latvian calendar' article, without putting the word "mythology" in it (mythological calendar doesn't make any sense). Somebody who's an expert in this need to do something with this "festivals". --Rochelimit (talk) 20:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, I think I am seeing this more clearly now. I think you are right, as long as they have an article on wikipedia about them they are fair game for inclusion on DOY pages. If there is a dispute as to the factual accuracy it should be fixed in the Latvian mythology article. DOY pages just feed off of their associated articles. Any disputes should be dealt with on that page, and shouldn't effect whether they are notable enough for inclusion on DOY.

Yah, the Latvian mythology is definitely a bit of a mess. I think splitting out the observances into a separate article would definitely a good idea, hopefully someone will come along and give that article some much needed attention. Winston365 (talk) 21:11, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Micronations

Hi again. I gather you are trying to be as explicit as possible with your (soon to be) proposed guidelines. Do you think it is worth adding anything about national holidays for micronations? I have seen a few of these, most recently here. My personal feelings on these is that national holidays should have to be associated with well established nations, and I revert these additions on sight. How do you feel? Cheers. Winston365 (talk) 03:21, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I personally against micronation holidays as these days can become a seed for these multitude of "micronation" holidays that can be very individual and just plain eccentric (and sometimes, silly). I think I saw one about this island in the great barrier reef that the gay community decided as their capital and make a holiday for it. Thanks for helping me with this, yes I am trying to be explicit as possible  :).

Actually there is one micronation holiday that is placed within the Holidays and observances section, I forgot what's the name, but it's a national holiday of a district in a capital of a country somewhere in eastern or northeastern Europe. The day is celebrated by eccentrics and the celebrations involved this giant egg and they even have a picture of it, so it seems to be very notable. --Rochelimit (talk) 21:01, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like a blast. Why can't every holiday involve giant eggs? . I responded to the question you asked on my talk page there, in an effort to keep the conversation from getting too fractured. Cheers. Winston365 (talk) 22:53, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I think I found it on April 1, do you mean the egg on Užupis? Winston365 (talk) 02:39, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Ruhr

Will be away to Ruhr for a week. Hope there will be less vandalism for the period.

Status of proposed guidelines

Hi Roche. What is the status of your proposed guidelines? Winston365 (talk) 01:35, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi Winston. I'm currently just rechecking the grammar (I'm rather bad at this) of the guideline and the hyperlinks, I finished checking from the top til 'Micronation observances'. Will continue tonight and tomorrow's weekend. --Rochelimit (talk) 11:51, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Do you mind if I do some copyediting on your proposed guidelines? I'll bring anything substantial up on the talk page, but for minor fixes in grammar and phrasing it seems easier for me to change it myself then to ask you to do it. You can revert anything you don't like of course. Winston365 (talk) 05:37, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I'm looking for :) --Rochelimit (talk) 06:25, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I have been a bit busy lately, but I will try and do some work on it in the next few days. Winston365 (talk) 05:07, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I have made a few changes just for a start. What do you think? Feel free to edit them mercilessly. Also, although the section is called "Holidays and Observances", what do you think about simply referring to them all just as observances for the purposes of this guideline? This could save all the awkward "holiday or observance" phrases scattered around. Winston365 (talk) 01:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

But I thought all good guidelines have awkward phrasing? :D no I think you're right. By the way, I'm a bit busy on weekdays, but I try to keep a look at the guideline and make sure it progressed.

National parks of Indonesia

Hi Rochelimit, thanks for your kind encouragement. I am very happy you wish to contribute to the improvement of these articles. I prepared an overview table of the status of all the 50 articles here, which might be helpful to establish priorities. Note however that the quality rating might not be always up to date and in some cases is based on my self-assessment, so independent review might be needed. Cheers, --Elekhh (talk) 01:48, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, that is helpful! Can only start on December though, but looking forward it.--Rochelimit (talk) 22:31, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, that's good to hear. Let's make national parks a collaboration of the month on WikiProject Indonesia. I will nominate NP images fro the Indonesia Portal for December. Until than I will proceed with my snail paste improvements... (been however quite lucky recently and could obtain images for five NPs wich were not illustrated yet). Let me know when you're ready to join in. --Elekhh (talk) 12:06, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Template backup (from Winston)

1. April 1 Earliest day on which Sizdah Be-dar can fall, while April 2 is the latest; celebrated on the thirteenth day after vernal equinox. (Iran)
2. April 2 Latest day on which Sizdah be dar may fall. (Iran)
3. April 15 Latest day on which New Year festivals in South and Southeast Asian cultures can fall. (see April 14)
4. April 19 Earliest day on which First Day of Summer or Sumardagurinn fyrsti can fall, while April 25 is the latest; celebrated on the first Thursday after April 18. (Iceland)
5. August 1 Earliest date on which Caribana celebration can fall, celebrated on the first Weekend of August. (Toronto)
6. August 1 Earliest date on which Emancipation Day can fall, celebrated on the first Monday of August. (Anguilla, the Bahamas, British Virgin Islands)
7. August 1 Earliest date on which Commerce Day, or Frídagur verslunarmanna, can fall; celebrated on the first Monday of August. (Iceland)
8. August 1 Earliest date on which International Friendship Day can fall, celebrated on the first Sunday of August.
9. August 8 Earliest day on which Melon Day can fall, while August 14 is the latest; celebrated on the second Sunday in August. (Turkmenistan)
10. August 15 Earliest day on which Day of Hearts can fall, while August 21 is the latest; celebrated on the third Monday in August. (area around Haarlem and Amsterdam)
11. August 22 Earliest day on which National Heroes' Day can fall, while August 28 is the latest; celebrated on the fourth Monday in August. (the Philippines)
12. August 24 Earliest date on which the Notting Hill Carnival can fall, while August 31 is the latest; celebrated on last Monday in August and the day before. (Notting Hill)
13. August 25 Earliest date on which La Tomatina can fall, while August 31 is the latest; celebrated on the last Wednesday in August. (Buñol)
14. December 20 Earliest date for Winter solstice's eve:
15. December 21 Earliest date for the winter solstice:
16. December 21 Earliest date for Yule in the northern hemisphere, and Midsummer in the southern hemisphere. (Neopagan Wheel of the Year)
17. February 2 Earliest day on which Shrove Monday can fall, while March 8 is the latest; celebrated on Monday before Ash Wednesday. (Christianity)
18. February 3 Earliest day on which Shrove Tuesday can fall, while March 9 is the latest; celebrated on Tuesday before Ash Wednesday. (Christianity)
19. February 4 Earliest day on which Ash Wednesday can fall, while March 10 is the latest; celebrated on the first day of Lent. (Christianity)
20. February 15 Earliest day on which Family Day can fall, while February 21 is the latest; celebrated on the third Monday in February. (Canada)
21. February 15 Earliest day on which Washington's Birthday can fall, while February 21 is the latest; celebrated on the third Monday in February. (United States)
22. January 1 Earliest day on which Handsel Monday can fall, while January 7 is the latest; celebrated on the first Monday of the year. (Scotland)
23. January 8 Earliest day on which Children's Day can fall, while January 15 is the latest; celebrated on the second Saturday in January. (Thailand)
24. January 15 Earliest day on which International Fetish Day can fall, while January 21 is the latest; celebrated on the third Friday in January.
25. January 15 Earliest day on which Martin Luther King, Jr. Day can fall, while January 21 is the latest; celebrated on the third Monday in January. (United States)
26. July 1 Earliest day on which St Pauls Carnival can fall, while July 7 is the latest; celebrated on the first Saturday in July. (Bristol)
27. July 14 Earliest day on which the first day of Gentse Feesten can fall, while July 20 is the latest; celebrated on Saturday before July 21. (Ghent)
28. July 15 Earliest day on which Marine Day can fall, while July 21 is the latest; celebrated on the third Monday of July. (Japan)
29. June 15 Earliest day on which Father's Day can fall, while June 21 is the latest; celebrated on the third Sunday in June. (United States)
30. June 20 Earliest date for the summer solstice:
31. March 1 Earliest day on which Casimir Pulaski Day can fall, while March 7 is the latest; celebrated on the first Monday in March. (Illinois)
32. March 1 Earliest day on which Laetare Sunday can fall, while April 4 is the latest; celebrated on the fourth Sunday of Lent. (Western Christianity), and its related observances:
33. March 8 Earliest day on which Canberra Day can fall, while March 14 is the latest; celebrated on the second Monday in March. (Australian Capital Territory)
34. March 8 Earliest day on which Commonwealth Day can fall, while March 14 is the latest; celebrated on the second Monday in March. (Commonwealth of Nations)
35. March 8 Earliest day on which Passion Sunday can fall, while April 11 is the latest; observed on the fifth Sunday of Lent. (Christianity)
36. March 15 Earliest day on which Palm Sunday can fall, while April 18 is the latest; celebrated on the sixth Sunday of Lent. (Christianity)
37. March 18 Earliest day on which Holy Wednesday can fall, while April 21 is the latest; celebrated on the week before Easter. (Christianity)
38. March 19 Earliest day on which Maundy Thursday can fall, while April 22 is the latest; celebrated on Thursday before Easter. (Christianity)
39. March 20 Earliest date for the vernal equinox:
40. March 20 Earliest day on which Good Friday can fall, while April 23 is the latest; celebrated on Friday before Easter. (Christianity)
41. March 21 Earliest day on which Holy Saturday can fall, while April 24 is the latest; celebrated on Saturday before Easter. (Christianity)
42. March 22 Earliest date on which Easter Sunday can fall, while April 25 is the latest. (Christianity)
43. March 23 Earliest day on which Easter Monday can fall, while April 26 is the latest; celebrated on Monday after Easter. (Christianity):
44. March 25 Earliest day on which Seward's Day can fall, while March 31 is the latest; celebrated on the last Monday in March. (Alaska)
45. May 1 Earliest date on which National Day of Prayer can fall, while May 7 is the latest; celebrated on the first Thursday in May. (United States)
46. May 3 Earliest date on which National Teacher's Day can fall, while May 9 is the latest; celebrated on the Tuesday of the first full week of May. (United States)
47. May 6 Earliest day for Military Spouse Day, while May 12 is the latest, celebrated on the Friday before Mother's Day. (United States)
48. May 8 Earliest Day for Mother's Day, while May 14 is the latest; celebrated on the second Sunday of May. (United States)
49. May 8 Earliest Day for World Fair Trade Day, while May 14 is the latest; celebrated on the second Sunday of May. (International)
50. May 10 Earliest possible date on which Pentecost can fall, while June 13 is the latest; celebrated seven weeks after Easter Day. (Christianity)
51. May 11 Earliest date on which Whit Monday can fall, while June 14 is the latest; celebrated on the day after Pentecost. (Christianity)
52. May 15 Earliest date on which Armed Forces Day can fall, while May 21 is the latest; celebrated on the third Saturday of May. (United States)
53. May 15 Earliest date on which Bike-to-Work Day can fall, while May 21 is the latest; celebrated on the third Friday of May. (United States)
54. May 17 Earliest date on which Trinity Sunday can fall, while June 20 is the latest; celebrated on the first Sunday after Pentecost. (Western Christianity)
55. May 21 Earliest date on which Corpus Christi can fall, while June 24 is the latest; held on Thursday after Trinity Sunday. (Roman Catholic Church)
56. May 29 Earliest date on which Feast of the Sacred Heart can fall, while July 2 is the latest; celebrated 19 days after Pentecost. (Roman Catholic Church)
57. November 2 Earliest day on which Election Day can fall, while November 8 is the latest. (United States)
58. November 8 Earliest day on which Remembrance Sunday can fall, while November 14 is the latest; celebrated on the second Sunday in November. (United Kingdom)
59. November 13 Earliest day on which National Day of Mourning or Volkstrauertag can fall, observed two Sundays before the first of Advent. (Germany)
60. November 15 Earliest day on which Great American Smokeout can fall, while November 21 is the latest; celebrated on the third Thursday in November (United States)
61. November 17 Earliest day on which National Survivors of Suicide Day can fall, while November 23 is the latest; celebrated on Saturday before Thanksgiving. (United States)
62. November 20 Earliest day on which the Feast of Christ the King can fall, while November 26 is the latest; celebrated on the last Sunday before Advent. (Roman Catholic Church)
63. November 22 Earliest day on which Thanksgiving Day can fall, while November 28 is the latest; celebrated on the fourth Thursday of November. (United States)
64. November 23 Earliest day on which Black Friday can fall, while November 29 is the latest; celebrated on the day after Thanksgiving. (United States)
65. November 26 Earliest day on which Cyber Monday can fall, while December 2 is the latest; observed on the first Monday after Thanksgiving. (United States)
66. November 27 Earliest date on which Advent Sunday can fall, while December 3 is the latest; celebrated on the Sunday nearest to St. Andrew's Day. (Western Christianity)
67. October 1 Earliest day on which World Habitat Day can fall, while October 7 is the latest; celebrated on the first Monday of October. (International)
68. October 8 Earliest date on which Columbus Day can fall, on the second Monday of October. (United States)
69. October 8 Earliest date on which the first day of Fire Prevention Week can fall, while October 14 is the latest. (United States and Canada)
70. October 15 Earliest day on which Sweetest Day can fall, while October 21 is the latest. (Great Lakes Region)
71. October 22 Earliest day for Make a Difference Day, while October 28 is the latest; celebrated on the fourth Saturday in October (United States)
72. September 1 Earliest date on which Labor Day can fall, while September 7 is the latest; celebrated on the first Monday in September. (United States)
73. September 5 Earliest date on which Jeûne genevois can fall, while September 11 is the latest; celebrated on Thursday after the first Sunday of September. (Canton of Geneva)
74. September 8 Earliest day on which Auditor's Day can fall, while September 14 is the latest; celebrated on the second Sunday in September. (Church of Scientology)
75. September 11 Earliest date on which Enkutatash can fall, while September 12 is the latest, celebrated on the first day of Mäskäräm. (Ethiopia)
76. September 12 Earliest date on which Programmers' Day can fall, while September 13 is the latest, celebrated on the 256th day of the year. (Russia and programmers around the world)
77. September 15 Earliest day on which POW/MIA Recognition Day can fall, celebrated on the third Friday in September. (United States)
78. September 15 Earliest day on which Prinsjesdag can fall, celebrated on the third Tuesday in September. (Netherlands)
79. September 15 Earliest day on which German-American Steuben Parade can fall, celebrated on the third Saturday in September. (United States, especially New York City)
80. September 22 Earliest date for the autumnal equinox:

Edible Book Day

Hi. Edible Book Day doesn't seem to belong on April 1 because it does not occur on the same date each year. This is evidenced by the text in the article "an annual event usually held on or around April 1" and "In 2005, the event was celebrated in Los Angeles ... on April 2" and "In 2010, the event is planned to be held on April 15". It also doesn't seem like a very widely celebrated observance. -- Mufka ^{(u) (t) (c)}

Hi Mufka, I'm sure that the day is widely celebrated on April 1. We have some folks celebrating it in Holland. Also on April 1, this year (and I think last year also, but I'm not very sure), the wiki main page features Edible Book Day as 'observance of the day'. So I think it is a fixed day? Is two times featured in main page a good reason to keep the day as it is?--Rochelimit (talk) 21:20, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

The fact that you are sure that it occurs on April 1 constitutes original research. I'm going by what is in the article and it seems to contradict that assumption. The main page doesn't have any regard for WP:DOY. If we could find some reliable sources that make it an annual observance on April 1 (and not on other days) it might work. So far, a majority of the sources that I've been able to check from the article say around April 1. Additionally, this really seems like some sort of promotional event created by a web site. -- Mufka ^{(u) (t) (c)} 21:58, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I have the same thought as you the first time I see this day two years back. Now, I think this day has the same notability as Talk like a Pirate Day and the two Pi Days, with a fixed day annually. Winston mentioned this specific holiday in my previous discussion (you can check my previous talk), and we both have no problem with the day.

My insight about this day is not sufficient though, whether the day is celebrated on April 1 only, or around April 1 (In my personal data, the day is celebrated only on April 1, but with very little information regarding the founder or where is it founded). Maybe I should do a more thorough research about this day, but I'm a little bit busy these days. So I think if you are positively sure to remove this observance, then just remove it. --Rochelimit (talk) 22:25, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Settled

Now that I'm more or less settled, gotta finished what's left, e.g. the holidays/observances guideline, the Jakarta Subdistricts, etc. Gotta heat that engine. --Rochelimit (talk) 11:14, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Suggested changes

• For the purpose of the given knowledge and information, historic observances that is not observed any longer can be placed in the Holidays and observances section.
• Observances that have a different day annually, but has a fixed range of period. (e.g. observances that are based on days of the week such as Thanksgiving Day, Whit Friday, etc.)

This suggestion appear in the H&O section, and are usually written in "earliest day on which..." style.

• Inclusion of local observances e.g. Las Fallas

Welcome back Roche, glad to hear you are settled in. I dunno if you are looking for comments on the above ideas, but I'm not enthusiastic about the bit about historic observances. It would be nice to have a list of these somewhere on Wikipedia, something like International observance perhaps. It may even exist already as far as I know, it's a big wiki. I'm not sure the Days of the Year pages are the right place for these though. For one thing with holidays that are still celebrated today there isn't much ambiguity as to which day they should be listed on, list them on the day they are currently celebrated. I suspect with some historic observances the proper date might be more difficult to pin down exactly, especially for really old ones where calendar differences start to be a pain. This might just be a symptom of my general nervousness about scope creep on these pages, sort of a vague feeling that as these sections grow in size the average notability often decreases. How many historic observances are there that you are aware of? Could you provide some examples? I think this should be considered carefully, as this is one of the few areas where the current guidelines are completely clear. Just my initial thoughts. Winston365 (talk) 02:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello Winston, Merry Xmas to you and ur family, and thanks for giving suggestion. What I meant by historic is not the extremely ancient one, but those which are more or less modern but notable such as Führergeburtstag (declared national holiday in 1939), Hartjesdag (very notable in the past, went unnoticed, then gaining a momentum again recently, although very minor), and Yugoslavia's Republic Day. Of course I don't think the extremely ancient one like those mentioned in winter solstice should be included (except for the Roman observances, which seems to be already completed in H&O by someone before me). There are hundreds of these extremely ancient observances, but I think there's not so many notable 'historic modern' observances in wiki, I'm not very sure. What do you think?

My next step (don't have to discuss this right now) is to introduce this guideline to the wiki world before it is officially published. I might need your suggestion etc. I'm not really "hungry" in making sure that this guideline must be accepted. I'm neutral, I'm open to any decision regarding the guideline. I'm just thinking that h&o needs a more elaborate guideline. But if the community says no, it's ok. --Rochelimit (talk) 21:00, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I would suspect there aren't all that many 'historic modern' observances out there, so including them wouldn't be particularly burdensome. The exception to that might be defunct national holidays, which may be fairly numerous. I'm not so sure about including those, but I like the way Red Army Day and Defender of the Fatherland Day are formatted on February 23 with the bullets. Something along the lines of allowing defunct observances if they have at least some degree of modern impact seems reasonable off the top of my head.

If you need any suggestions I'd be happy to help, I'm not going anywhere any time soon ;). Merry Xmas and happy holidays to you and yours! Winston365 (talk) 23:30, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I think it's better to remove the historic observance to avoid confusion.--Rochelimit (talk) 07:38, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Rochelimit. You have new messages at Winston365's talk page.
Message added 14:25, 27 December 2010 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Indonesian Wikipedia Birthday

Halo Rochelimit, Saya melihat posting kamu di ten.wikipedia, kebetulan salah satu pengelola @America adalah teman saya, sebetulnya saya bisa booking tempatnya kalau mau :D

Sedikit cerita, bulan November lalu saya ke kantor pusat Wikimedia di San Fransisco, sebetulnya mereka juga sudah menawarkan kaos dan lain-lain untuk pesta ulang tahun, yang saya tanggapi dengan dingin, karena yang ulang tahun kan Wikipedia bahasa Enggris, angka sepuluh ngga ada artinya di Wikipedia bahasa Indonesia, untuk saya kalau mau mendanai ulang tahun Wikipedia Bahasa Indonesia, kita mau cetak kaos sendiri yang berangka enam. Bulan Mei nanti, rencananya, kalau dananya turun, kita tidak akan melaksanakannya di at america, karena saya sudah cek, makanan ngga bisa masuk, cuman snack yang dimungkinkan disana karena pengamanannya ketat sekali, laptop pun tidak boleh masuk.

Wikipedia bahasa Indonesia merencanakan ulang tahun untuk Wikipedia bahasa Indonesia di bulan Mei, sebagai gantinya. Untuk berita lanjutan, akan kita diskusikan di warung kopi, karena acara yang sama direncanakan mengundang pengguna sangat aktif yang berdomisili di luar Jakarta.

Namun sebagai catatan apabila jadi, acara kamu di PP nanti, komunitas tertarik mendengar ceritanya. Siska Doviana (tinggalkan pesan disini

Ha, ya, saya sudah kira. Orang Indonesia yang menyunting EN WP (ini istilah teknis yang digunakan untuk English Wikipedia), tidak banyak saya kira. Bahkan kalau kapalnya karam dan minta SOS untuk ketemuan, most likely, tidak akan ada yang lihat in-time, saking sedikitnya. Akan kita kabari lagi, tetapi ini untuk Indonesian editing Indonesian Wikipedia loh. Siska Doviana — Preceding unsigned comment added by Siska.Doviana (talk • contribs) 00:15, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Terima kasih, BTW saya pernah sedikit berkompetisi dengan user non-Indonesia EN WP yang ingin menyumbang beberapa gambar bagus untuk artikel ID WP. User nya non-Indonesia, tapi sayang sekali dia jadi nggak bisa ikut karena non-Indonesia (saya tidak tahu dia tinggal dimana). Saya cenderung prefer kalau meetingnya tidak perlu dilimit2, tapi mungkin Siska tahu lebih banyak. Thank you atas message nya.--Rochelimit (talk) 00:22, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

H&O Preparation

WT:DAYS

1. Start a new thread here.

text: title

'Proposal for the expansion of Holidays and observances (H&O) guideline, and some other changes'

2. Attract WT:Days people to comment on the idea of pasting the entire guideline to the discussion page, should I do this or not?

maybe not

3. Gives explanation on why H&O observances should be expanded and changed?

text: attracting people

text: reason why should the H&O observances be expanded. 1. Proof that H&O guideline is minim compared to anniversary guideline.

A few years earlier, I have "reorganized" the content of the Holidays and observances (H&O) section for each days of the year, making sure that the guideline has consistent writing style and making sure that real holiday is placed in the H&O section.

The guideline for all H&O for 366 articles for each days of the year has been controlled by the H&O guideline in Wikipedia:DOY). However, the Wikipedia:DOY guideline is too short, vague, and does not accommodate the many kinds of holidays that is there. As a result, various inconsistent writing styles and various incorrect holidays keep reappearing in the H&O section. ::Although the writing style for each of the 366 articles has been made consistent for the past few years, there are still conflicting opinions regarding the formatting (e.g. alphabet sort or not) and the content (e.g. saint days) that should be included in the H&O section.

Therefore, there is a need to create a new text for the H&O guideline as well as few changes regarding what kind of holidays should be placed in the H&O section.

I would like to invite any interested parties to check the proposed expansion of H&O guideline in ------ (create new sub page in DOY? or DAYS)??????

Summary of new H&O guideline

• more specific writing style guideline.
• stricter rule for unofficial holidays and other "holidays".
• new rules regarding fixed days, now "moving solar days" (e.g. Easter, Lent, President Day) can be included; while "moving lunar days" (e.g. Ramadan, Chanukkah, Moon Festival) cannot be included.
• new rules regarding Roman Festival.

WP:VPP

1. invite people to WT:DAYS's discussion page. Should they be re-linked to H&O observances page? wait question 2. to be answered.

text:

I would like to invite any interested parties to look at the proposed expansion of Holidays and observances (H&O) guideline and a few new rules concerning the material that can be included in the H&O section. Please check: ---------

Translating from Indonesian wikipedia...

...please don't do it. The exception to this would be if the ID article has good references, but in my experience this is very rare. Remember, information without citations can be challenged and removed at anytime, and unreferenced info might expand wikipedia, but it doesn't improve its quality. many thanks --Merbabu (talk) 22:47, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I am aware of the citations, and I did not literally translate every single words that is there. I do remove some words that I feel misleading, and rechecked infos in books.google. But yah you are right about rare ID article with good references. Maybe I have to be stricter than I am now.. (you are referring to Kebayoran Baru are you?) --Rochelimit (talk) 06:38, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

VPP proposal

Hi Roche. I moved your thread at WP:VPP towards the bottom of the page. You should generally start new threads at talk/pump/desk/noticeboard type pages at the bottom. It can be easily overlooked at the top of the page as most people scroll to the bottom to see what is new, and keeping things in chronological order helps both people and archive bots keep things straight. I'll try to come up with some substantive comments on your guidelines in the next few days. Cheers. Winston365 (talk) 03:55, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi Winston, I've made a mistake, thanks for correcting it. I don't see other users commenting since my first post, I'll probably give a one week time for this.--Rochelimit (talk) 06:33, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Talk page for H&O guidelines

Don't forget to sign your posts on the talk page at WT:H&O or people will be a bit confused as to whom they are responding to. I'd also suggest collapsing the rather long list of dates so it is hidden by default to make the page easier to read. Surrounding the list with {{cot}} and {{cob}} is an easy way to do this. I'd do it for you, but I don't want to refactor your comments without permission. Cheers. Winston365 (talk) 02:41, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding me, I did it already, the signing and the collapsing. I added another intro sentences to the main page just to clarify what the article is all about. I think people are a bit overwhelmed by the long list of rules for a mere H&O section. Let's just see how it goes. Since I just signed the intro of the main page today (Jan 18), I decided to extend the waiting time until Jan 25. I don't know Wiki rules about how long can you place a proposal page, but probably not too long. I hope somebody (other than you and Mufka) will read the proposal thoroughly though, and make a comment about it. I probably have to do a user-to-user approach, only to attract people's attention, salesman style. Some people are into H&O but probably never know about WP:VPP--Rochelimit (talk) 04:44, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

There is no time limit at all when it comes to proposed guidelines. The WP:DOY guidelines had the proposed tag for almost four years! (finally shed here.) Winston365 (talk) 04:59, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

WOW, thanks for the insight.--Rochelimit (talk) 08:15, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Damned slow tubes

Sorry, but I'm still on a ship for a few weeks, and the internets are too slow. I feel bad not being able to deal with the daily nonsense that gets added to the DOY pages, but waiting almost a half a minute for each diff is just too frustrating, and this is supposed to be a vacation for me. I haven't forgotten about the new H&O guidelines, but until internet access becomes reasonable again I'll probably have little to contribute. I'm still eager to hash out some of your proposed guidelines, but I'm for the most part away from Wikipedia until I get home again. No guarantees I'll be online at all until then...I'll try...but for the most part I'm away for now. (third try to send this...) Winston365 (talk) 04:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Hey no problem. Yeah DOY are crazy, but really thank you very much. I say just enjoy your "ship" trip (wow...), forget the DOY, all Wikipedia are so vandalized these days. I will tell you later about the H&O. Have a nice trip/job/internship! --Rochelimit (talk) 23:50, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Winston365 (talk) 03:44, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

DYK

Hi Rochelimit. Thanks for your review comment. I have replied at Template talk:Did you know#Up.27n Down. 28bytes (talk) 17:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

formatting for feast days

Is this how you would do it? Should (Anglican Communion) or something similar be added as well? Winston365 (talk) 21:12, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi Winston, sorry for the late reply. I just checked the commemorated bishops. Technically, the mentioned Anglican Communion calendar is a calendar of saints. The problem is, commemoration for Sasaki and Tsen is celebrated not on February 23, but on February 24 in the Anglican Church's calendar. They are also celebrated on October 31 in the Episcopal Church's calendar. So far this is what I found, so I think the best think to do is to remove Sasaki and Tsen until somebody placed the bishops into the correct date. I never know about these bishops, but it seems that they are prominent within the Asian-American Christian community. So I guess the best think to do is removed them from Feb 23. I will do that. Thanks for letting me know...--Rochelimit (talk) 07:53, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Oops, once again I was over-thinking and missed the obvious. Must have looked at that Anglican Community calendar half a dozen times without noticing the date discrepancy. Your plan sounds good, thanks for fixing it. Winston365 (talk) 14:17, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

:D --Rochelimit (talk) 14:50, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Canals in Jakarta

Thank you so much for your explanation. Certainly I understand that Wikipedia need reference, but I write it as a good faith. It doesn't matter if you delete it. And I'm glad that you also write about my country Indonesia. Frequently foreigners write about Indonesia better than Indonesians, because of their English and sometimes due to Indonesian frequently holiday in Singapore rather in Papua (cheaper go to Singapore than to Papua). The other problem there are only a few article about Indonesia in English here and if they do might be not complete or proper due to journalism quality. I hope I will make another contribution about Indonesia next time. Have a good day.Gsarwa (talk) 06:35, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

You are very much encouraged to contribute Indonesian articles. If you need help, just ask, I will happily guide you through. Remember, don't forget the citation! book title, author, year, etc (and not just a mere blogspot website, etc.). Good faith is not really an excuse especially for Indonesian article, there are too many Indonesian articles regarded as a mere "good faith", with no citations, very messy. It is time to clean up those articles and elevate them into good articles.

And one more thing, try to place only articles that are well-known. Don't add minor things like terms introduced from book, etc. I can assure you there are far more important "Indonesian things" other than Four emerging markets ;). Try to introduce something that do exist for a long time, e.g. a historic character or an ethnic group or a national park. If I may suggest, you can try to complete some of the heroes here. --Rochelimit (talk) 15:43, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your guidance. My advance study is International Management, but please don't think I'm the expert. Since 2002 I have known about BRIC, but I access Wikipedia might be five years ago, due to my slow internet access, so I only access what I think the most important, although I have private email address since 1998 (mailing list era). Fortunately the internet access in Indonesia and also mobile phone surge significantly in the last three years. When I know BRIC, only a few think this is the important issue and also the importancy of China. I think BRIC is well known after Global Financial Crisis when U.S. 'slow down' (polite term) and China together with ASEAN countries almost not affected (now ASEAN-China Free Trade Agreement is the largest regional free trade area in many things). Global Financial Crisis change many things. Many articles write that Brazil and mainly Russia should be replaced by such as Indonesia, but I'm not contribute it in BRIC article due to some of the readers might be unplease, although many data support it. You may read a little about it in a paragraph at 3G (countries). 3G countries (Citigroup) and also Four emerging markets (Jim O'Neil) right now are not popular, but the data support them. So, I think it will exist for a long time. In Emerging markets we may see many different groups of analysts have their certain group of emerging markets, but there we know which countries frequently or always mention.Gsarwa (talk) 07:09, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Four Emerging Markets

Thank you so much for your suggestion to merge with Emerging markets. But I think it will unbalance due to I see there is mainly lists of the countries from different group of analysts. Certainly they have their own considerations, but like Dow Jones with 35 countries without anything explanation might be some critical readers will ask what's going on. To make better (by adding) the article of Emerging markets might be not proper today due to some of them might be obsolete. The latest grouping ussually make better senses due to use the latest data, except Dow Jones list by 35 countries which it is too much I think (not focus). All group of emerging markets out side of BRIC will not equivalent with BRIC. But BRIC itself might be regrouping in a decade ahead due to right now some analysts think BRIC is dominated by China and India and who will accompanied them it doesn't matter. Recently Russia is not growth significantly, so there are several analysts suggest to change Russia with other countri(es) or at least add other countri(es) to BRIC, but Russia refuse it when BRIC make informal meeting. I think for coming years 'New BRIC' (this is my neologisme), Four emerging markets and 3G Countries should be monitored and we may forget (for simplify study) the others including CIVETS and Next Eleven. Global Financial Crisis change many things and only several countries are passing them smoothly, so all predictions made before Global Financial Crisis should be read with concern. When I contribute 3G Countries I ask to myself why Citigroup include Mongolia and Bangladesh, but after I learn them I agree with Citigroup mainly Mongolia with Tavan Tolgoi area, the largest untapped coking coal deposit and transportation to China will be easily made.Gsarwa (talk) 02:33, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on this, but I always avoid placing an article that is still changing or under discussion, especially if it is a theory where different people may have different opinions about it. Have you read this guideline? --Rochelimit (talk) 14:12, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I have read your suggestion and I think this is more than third times I have read. I know exactly that we cannot make contribute about Arab vs Israel, but I forgot where I read it due to Wikipedia have so many guidances. The controversial thing like Persecution of Ahmadis has filter, so only after reviewed and agreed it will be displayed. The Four emerging markets I think it is not so controversial as Ahmadiyya. When I go to U.S. before Global Financial Crisis, I'm surprise that many people in U.S. didn't know about Ben Bernanke and when I told them U.S. will get crisis as Indonesia in Asian Financial Crisis (but lighter and without chaos), they said Do you think so? Actually there are sufficient data and has published even in the news paper, but who will believe. To study about International Management might be will controversial, because we learn about the past, current, how to manage it and the future. So we learn such as Entry Barrier but also Exit Strategy. Thank you so much that making me still alert.Gsarwa (talk) 15:06, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

OK........ just remember to consult me everytime you are planning to add an article. Try to avoid yourself from being blacklisted in the community. --Rochelimit (talk) 15:46, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I will consult with you if there are will be a new article might be controvertial. Gsarwa (talk) 06:26, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Congkak

Hi, I dont see any "high quality" feature in that plain Dakon image either , the swan-shaped congkak image is way better than that. Congkak is a Malay version of Mancala game, not the "southeast asian" version of mancala (Im surprised that Indonesian willing to "share" culture here..:)). I'm sorry to ask this, but are u trying to attach the popularity of Congkak (which is more famous) with other less known mancala variant like Dakon? Although I am willing to tolerate with your edits, I still believe it is better to include info about dakon, Mokaotan or whatsoever variant to Mancala article which is more appropriate, since all of them and Congkak are variants of Mancala. Anyway, name means everything here.(Orhanghazi (talk) 18:29, 28 March 2011 (UTC))

Hi, there is no problem in the article. I just wanted to use the congkak article to represent the southeast asian version of the mancala, e.g. dakon, mokaotan, etc. I prefer to place these variants in congkak because congkak is - apart from being the most popular - probably the oldest form of mancala in southeast asia. Mancala game can be played with sticks, may have different hole configurations, or may have rules that are entirely different with congkak; but dakon, mokaotan, and other se asian varieties have very similar features with congkak. So that's why I prefer to place it in congkak article instead of making numerous stubby articles.

Plus placing makaotan and dakon in congkak is as appropriate as placing kaashi and bank in Pallanguzhi. So why not placing these in congkak article? Afterall these se asian mancala all are similarly rooted from the same Malay one.

About the swan-shaped congkak, it is a beautiful piece of congkak indeed. What I'm implying by poor is not the object, but the quality of the picture (noise, flash, etc.). And I thought it is better to place that image closer to the content which talks about the variety of shapes a congkak can be carved into. So I moved the swan congkak picture closer to that particular sentence, as opposed to the plain one.

About "attaching popularity", I have no interest in this. I'm using wikipedia not for promoting popularity or interest, just pure academic.

Sorry, I don't get your "Im surprised that Indonesian willing to "share" culture here"? What are you referring to here?

Thanks --Rochelimit (talk) 18:11, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Where did you find "kaashi and bank in Pallanguzhi"??84.175.173.15 (talk) 07:56, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I found it in List of mancala games just as an example.--Rochelimit (talk) 10:53, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Any independent sources? (Bank doesn't sound Indian at all.)84.175.173.15 (talk) 17:24, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I found one in [here], but that's all I'm afraid, not a very good source either. Are you doing a project?--Rochelimit (talk) 15:20, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Obviously a quote taken from Wikipedia. I don't see any independent sources yet. BTW, I'm User:Mr_Mancala on Mancala World (mancala [DOT] wikia [DOT] com). Thanks. 84.175.233.36 (talk) 06:56, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

List of colonial buildings in Jakarta

Dear Rochelimit, I think your project 'List of colonial buildings and structures in Jakarta' is worthy to be published in wikipedia, so go ahead. We'll see what I can do to help. Oh yes.., my passion is indeed Indonesian history, however actually my true obessession is in certain era: Hindu-Buddhist Ancient Kingdoms era (circa 5th-15th century), Indonesian colonial history is not really my cup of tea, yet sometime I love to travel to colonial buildings and took photographs for wikimedia commons (Gunkarta (talk) 12:14, 3 April 2011 (UTC)).

Dear Gunkarta, thank you for showing your interest. I will publish this into wikipedia, but only until I complete at least all the coordinate locations and the good references for some locations with no wiki article. I know you are into photography, so perhaps you could help if you have some modern day pictures of some sites? Thanks again :)

By the way, I checked your page and I was wondering whether you are working with Kompas? Some of their "graphs" are very well-researched and has some cool, user-friendly graphics in it. I was wondering if you are probably one of their graphic designer? --Rochelimit (talk) 16:30, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Okay I'll tried to took photograph of these colonial buildings in my spare times, oh yes I work for that newspaper :) making infographic for printed newspaper, the dot com and i-pad has their own graphic guys. I'm flattered and glad if you like the graphics in kompas. Btw just curious, what line of work do you do? cheers... (Gunkarta (talk) 10:55, 4 April 2011 (UTC)).

urban planner! by the way ya I really love those graphics.--Rochelimit (talk) 08:43, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Ketemuan

Ya, nanti juga ada lagi, di bulan April kita akan publikasikan jadwal sampai November, jadi kalau miss satu bisa lihat jadwal lainnya dimana yang bisa masuk. Gunkarta juga diundang berulang kali tapi miss mulu. So you're not the only one ;-) Siska.Doviana (talk) 10:25, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Class Calendar is OUTSiska.Doviana (talk) 12:14, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Pertemuan Wikimedia Cipta

Halo Rochelimit,

Seperti yang sudah diinformasikan Siska Doviana, Wikimedia Cipta akan mengadakan kelas menulis dan kelas proyek di Jakarta. Apabila ingin berpartisipasi dan bertemu dengan anggota lainnya, mungkin bisa datang ke jadwal terdekat pada Jumat, 6 Mei 2011 (jam 6-9 malam) dan Sabtu, 14 Mei (11-2 sore), ataupun pada kelas proyek lainnya :) --22Kartika (talk) 14:45, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Openness

[this] confirms it.

DYK nomination of List of colonial buildings and structures in Jakarta

Hello! Your submission of List of colonial buildings and structures in Jakarta at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! bamse (talk) 21:04, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I replied there. bamse (talk) 17:13, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I started to fix the bare url references for all of the jakarta.go.id pages that were accessible. Lots of them were broken (so I could not fix them), but possibly you could find them with webcite or archive. bamse (talk) 21:25, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I fixed the bare url references for all of the jakarta.go.id pages that were accessible. Lots of them were broken (so I could not fix them), but possibly you could find them with webcite or archive. bamse (talk) 21:30, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Bamse, thank you very much for your help. I am so busy with work, I stole time at the office to fix this article, for the love of this article sake :). Detail of reply is there in the DYK.--Rochelimit (talk) 05:55, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

It is fine to keep the dead links, but the bare links ("[1]", "[2]",...) need to be replaced with something, typically with the title of the page. Possibly we can extract a title from the (last part of the) url for many cases. For instance for ref 16 ([6], would a title "Jembatan Gantung Kota Intan" make sense? If yes, we could replace ref 16 with Jembatan Gantung Kota Intan. bamse (talk) 10:30, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I think it's okay. I just finished doing that actually. I also found some of the dead links: it seems that all the v70 had moved to a new site with a pattern. For instance, the dead url http://www.jakarta.go.id/v70/index.php/en/bangunan-cagar-budaya/179-jakarta-pusat/657-gedung-departemen-keuangan had moved to http://m.jakarta.go.id/news/179/657/gedung-departemen-keuangan, notice the numbering and the title in the back. Click it and see how bad it looks. I don't really want to change all these dead links to the new url, it seems that the new url will going to be another temporary site. The old url is far more organized than this one (they categorize each buildings into locations). It's a pity, because the old url has the complete list of every protected buildings in Jakarta, complete with (extremely small) photo.

Should we probably put these links as well without deleting the old one? What do you reckon? --Rochelimit (talk) 14:00, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

For DYK it is only important not to have "http://..." or "[7]" type of references, so if you fix the last remaining http... references, and add a page number to the hook references, we'd be done (i.e. I'd support the DYK). Eventually (say for WP:FLC), dead links should be repaired by replacing them with new (working) links. Since you mention that those links are changed often, it would be a good idea to archive any working links with webcite and to add "archiveurl=" not to have to deal with it in the future again. bamse (talk) 14:25, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I think I've finished with the bare links and the page (it's page 108). Please check. Thanks for all your effort. BTW I like your lists, check them regularly, never thought that it was you who made the Japanese heritage lists.--Rochelimit (talk) 14:46, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Glad you like the Japanese lists. Still need to get two through FLC (which is always a struggle getting together enough reviews...). Anyway, the Jakarta buildings look good. I'll support if you remove the last three http-s (refs 12, 20, 95). bamse (talk) 16:29, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I fixed 12, 20, 95 (another case of moving address)--Rochelimit (talk) 03:34, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks and congratulations! I fixed a reference error/mistake in wiki code. Please make sure that this is the correct reference (name="grandfather") meant here. bamse (talk) 11:27, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Grandfather is the correct reference.--Rochelimit (talk) 19:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Gereja Santo Yoseph

Well thank you... Actually I tried to took the picture from the same vantage point of view from previous older colonial photographs, which is not always possible since the new structures (like walls, signs, trees or warungs) might dirupt the original place where the old photograph was taken and disturb the view. Anyway, keep up the good work... cheers! (Gunkarta (talk) 14:42, 7 July 2011 (UTC)).

DYK for List of colonial buildings and structures in Jakarta

NW (Talk) 00:03, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I know

A slip of the keys - should have been islands - sorry about that SatuSuro 06:37, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh so quick, thanks :) --Rochelimit (talk) 06:53, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

either - try doing a further redirect to the correct spelling (and being very very careful about complicated redirects) or take it to an admin or Xfd circus for a speedy delete (and rename) SatuSuro 06:59, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

I'll rename/move it Thousand Islands (Indonesia)? what do you think of that? the disambiguation page of Thousand Islands has this name on it. This is probably one of the earliest title for the article, and the best name for me. I think "Regency" in the title is unnecessary, the administrative status can be explained in the content. What do you think?. I'll do it the next days, or you can do it if you have the time.--Rochelimit (talk) 08:50, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

AfD of Unity Factory Day

Hi, I wanted to let you know I copied your AfD nomination from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Unity Factory Day to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Unity Factory Day (2nd nomination), when nominating an article that has previously been nominated for deletion we do it at a new subpage and leave the old discussion alone. I've also transcluded the new discussion and updated the template links to point to it. Monty₈₄₅ 20:45, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Monty, I decided to leave the discussion and proposed a deletion without any discussion instead (hence the proposed deletion tag in the article). I mean, I can't believe no one is removing that article despite the obvious scam.--Rochelimit (talk) 07:28, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Asta Tinggi Sumenep

• Dewi, Laurentia. Asta Tinggi (Sumenep, Madura); Pesarean (Makam) Raja-Raja Madura http://laurentiadewi.com (diakses pada 12 Juli 2011)
• Irawan, Benny. Asta Tinggi Sumenep http://sanchiarch.wordpress.com (diakses pada 13 Juli 2011)
• Pasongsongan. Foreign Affair: Chinese in Sumenep http:pasongsongan.blogspot.com (diakses pada 13 Juli 2011)
• http://library.thinkquest.org "Asta Tinggi Cemetery" (diakses pada 13 Juli 2011)

October 2012 Jakarta meetup invitation

Hi there! You are cordially invited to a meetup on Wednesday the 24th of October. Details and an attendee list are at Indonesian Wikipedia page id:Wikipedia:Kopi darat/Jakarta (24 Oktober 2012). Hope you can make it either in the afternoon or evening. John Vandenberg 13:32, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

(this automated message was delivered using replace.py to all users in Jakarta)

Neopagan holidays in the Southern hemisphere

Regarding your removal of Neopagan holidays in the Southern hemisphere, I do not agree that they are redundant. They may have originated in the Northern hemisphere but they are also celebrated in the Southern hemisphere in accordance with (different) southern seasons. Removing them from days of the year pages results in only the Northern hemisphere holidays being shown on the Wiki main page, which is frustrating for Neopagans in the Southern hemisphere who are assumed to be celebrating on behalf of the Northern hemisphere and greeted accordingly. Please reconsider your recent changes in this regard. HelenOnline (talk) 09:04, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Clearly you did not mean what you said on my talk page. Do I really have to elevate this dispute? HelenOnline (talk) 09:39, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

See November 1 talk, as talk here has not helped. HelenOnline (talk) 10:05, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

November 24 Meeting

I had my first meeting with other Wikipedians in Jakarta on this date. For the first time I see the person behind these usernames: [Exec8] (the Philippines Wikimedia), [Siska.Doviana] (Indonesian Wikimedia), User:John Vandenberg (Wikimedia Australia), 22Kartika (a Wikimedia scholarship winner), 06Ivonne (a Wikimedia scholarship winner), and Meursault2004 (a Wikipedian Bureaucrat). Wish I could join other meetings in the future.--Rochelimit (talk) 16:30, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

DYK nomination of List of beaches in Indonesia

Hello! Your submission of List of beaches in Indonesia at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Manxruler (talk) 20:06, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

• Did you know that in the some southern coast beaches of Java, people are warned not to wear green clothes due to the belief that the color may offend the goddess of the south sea and cause the person to drown into the sea.
• Asked Elekhh to help with grammar.

A Barnstar For You

		The Original Barnstar
		For List of beaches in Indonesia. Very nice indeed! Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:25, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

DYK for List of beaches in Indonesia

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:03, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

WikiCup 2013 February newsletter

Round 1 is now over. The top 64 scorers have progressed to round 2, where they have been randomly split into eight pools of eight. At the end of April, the top two from each pool, as well as the 16 highest scorers from those remaining, will progress to round 3. Commiserations to those eliminated; if you're interested in still being involved in the WikiCup, able and willing reviewers will always be needed, and if you're interested in getting involved with other collaborative projects, take a look at the WikiWomen's Month discussed below.

Round 1 saw 21 competitors with over 100 points, which is fantastic; that suggests that this year's competition is going to be highly competative. Our lower scores indicate this, too: A score of 19 was required to reach round 2, which was significantly higher than the 11 points required in 2012 and 8 points required in 2011. The score needed to reach round 3 will be higher, and may depend on pool groupings. In 2011, 41 points secured a round 3 place, while in 2012, 65 was needed. Our top three scorers in round 1 were:

1. Sturmvogel_66 (submissions), primarily for an array of warship GAs.
2. Miyagawa (submissions), primarily for an array of did you knows and good articles, some of which were awarded bonus points.
3. Casliber (submissions), due in no small part to Canis Minor, a featured article awarded a total of 340 points. A joint submission with Keilana (submissions), this is the highest scoring single article yet submitted in this year's competition.

Other contributors of note include:

• Sven Manguard (submissions), whose Portal:Massachusetts is the first featured portal this year. The featured portal process is one of the less well-known featured processes, and featured portals have traditionally had little impact on WikiCup scores.
• Sasata (submissions), whose Mycena aurantiomarginata was the first featured article this year.
• Muboshgu (submissions) and Wizardman (submissions), who both claimed points for articles in the Major League Baseball tie-breakers topic, the first topic points in the competition.
• Toa Nidhiki05 (submissions), who claimed for the first full good topic with the Casting Crowns studio albums topic.

Featured topics have still played no part in this year's competition, but once again, a curious contribution has been offered by The C of E (submissions): did you know that there is a Shit Brook in Shropshire? With April Fools' Day during the next round, there will probably be a good chance of more unusual articles...

March sees the WikiWomen's History Month, a series of collaborative efforts to aid the women's history WikiProject to coincide with Women's History Month and International Women's Day. A number of WikiCup participants have already started to take part. The project has a to-do list of articles needing work on the topic of women's history. Those interested in helping out with the project can find articles in need of attention there, or, alternatively, add articles to the list. Those interested in collaborating on articles on women's history are also welcome to use the WikiCup talk page to find others willing to lend a helping hand. Another collaboration currently running is an an effort from WikiCup participants to coordinate a number of Easter-themed did you know articles. Contributions are welcome!

A few final administrative issues. From now on, submission pages will need only a link to the article and a link to the nomination page, or, in the case of good article reviews, a link to the review only. See your submissions' page for details. This will hopefully make updating submission pages a little less tedious. If you are concerned that your nomination—whether it is at good article candidates, a featured process, or anywhere else—will not receive the necessary reviews, please list it on Wikipedia:WikiCup/Reviews. Questions are welcome on Wikipedia talk:WikiCup, and the judges are reachable on their talk pages or by email. Good luck! If you wish to start or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from Wikipedia:WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. J Milburn (talk • email) and The ed17 (talk • email) J Milburn (talk) 01:12, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Wicca/Pagan southern observances of Equinoxes and Solstices, should they be included?

see Wiccan calendar in H&O

Freedom of Panorama is bullshit

Why do people deleted Tropenmuseum pictures on the base of 'Freedom of Panorama' pictures? The fact that those who delete this is a mere kid who never even went to Indonesia enraged me. This kind of attitude lacks the understanding of a true aim of Wikipedia as a tool for knowledge-sharing, and I'm not even undermining the ethical code of referencing and sourcing. This people are just complete 'grammar police' to be honest, so they are all complete bullshit.

I have a good solution though, thanks to the less corrupted, less money oriented, Indonesian Wikimedia community. And they are working on it, so HA!

Deleted Tropenmuseum pictures:

• Picture of a bollywood movieFile:COLLECTIE TROPENMUSEUM Affiches voor Bollywood-films op de voorgevel van Bioscoop Manggarai TMnr 20018017.jpg
  • Original picture > [8] inventory number 20000922
• Picture of a Chinese movie on Gedung Kesenian Jakarta
  • Original picture > [9] inventory number 20018014

--Rochelimit (talk) 09:23, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Please explain

Please eplain why you think KotaGede (or PasarGede) is an actual real usage, or even correct usage of an Indonesian place name. sats 08:41, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

It's the official name. Kecamatan Kotagede, belongs to City of Yogyakarta, belongs to Special Region of Yogyakarta.--Rochelimit (talk) 10:23, 4 July 2013 (UTC):

oops - misunderstanding - as one word, rather than historic usage of two words... Kotagede might be current usage, but historically the two words are what is found... sats 14:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

As long as alternative usages either of words or names are redirects and mentioned in the lead sentence - there is no real problem in the end... I have an issue only if the alternatives dont show up somewhere... So the variant names of Fort Vredeburg are fine, as long as it is shown as an a.k.a. in the lead. sats 15:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Yup, agrees.--Rochelimit (talk) 15:56, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Problem - Santosa has now been over-used as a reference - it is clear that santosa is highly derivative of/from the other refs that are mentioned - if you keep using the one source much more the article will have to have the tag onesource - dont you have access to other sources at all? Also there are things mentioned that are quite dubious when it comes to an encyclopedia article... regardless of whether santoasa writing some of the information in a book, it does not make for a well balanced encyclopedia article, this reminds me of the problems with the taman sari article - all over again... sats 14:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Also - like the taman sari article - there is a limit to how many photos added actually help the article... there is a point where a link to commons is far more appropriate. The added photos at the bottom of the article really look like what some editors would remove and say 'too many' - I am not able to attend to the article in response to my concerns in the short term, but I would say well worth your taking note of any issues that other eds might offer - it is getting into territory where it neither a stub or a quality article - the over-reliance on one source, and some other issues - really do need some more work.. - well done for the effort, but I do hope you are open to some good faith suggestions... sats 15:00, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. I think Santosa seems to be over-referenced because I cited his book per page, which is kinda inefficient. I think I will have to fix that by filling the 'pages' tag instead of the 'page' in 'cite book', as well as adding more references. I actually think that Santosa is not a very good academic reference, some of his word of choices sound a bit poetic, that's why I'm planning to add more reliable ref.

BTW, I was kinda inspired with the picture-gallery for the article Church architecture as a mean to compare architectural forms. I steal the silver gallery from that page. I will probably try to place the west-east blend architectural form in a gallery similar to the silver one. I completely agree with the overabundant pictures, will remove some later.

I am done as of today, will continue tomorrow. Maybe I'll do a half an hour picture re-arranging. if you have time, could you help me improve the article's wordings and grammar. If you are planning to remove a large section of the article, please suggest me first. I'm forever open minded.

Really? taman sari? I don't think so! :P --Rochelimit (talk) 15:14, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Give me at least 3 or 4 days to have a good look, real life is in the way ... sats 16:08, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks!--Rochelimit (talk) 16:14, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

sheesh where do you get some of this stuff foreign tourism in the 70's? - sorry about 100 years wrong there - there are photographs of foreign tourists visiting borobudur as early as 1890's... and I own tourist guide books from the 1920s and 1930s... if you are talking about mass tourism, 70's is still wrong... I would argue that foreign visitors were in sufficiently large enough numbers in the 1930's... I am sure that the problems of the 1940s and 1960s limited the phenomenon, but hey, the subject is a little more complex than the assumption that tourism by foreigners 'just happened' in the 1970s. anyways its late, sampai jumpa... sats 16:21, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

no

Screenshots of google products are not allowed. Open Maps is worth investigating. Please learn more about (c) WP:COPYRIGHT sats 07:32, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

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Talkback re H&O Anglican Commemorations

I've posted a reply to your comment on my talkback page, though I have no idea how to include the neat blue box I noticed someone else included in what might be a similar situation.Jweaver28 (talk) 04:24, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I've posted a response to your reply.Jweaver28 (talk) 11:39, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I've posted an inquiry/response to your reply.Jweaver28 (talk) 09:42, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I've posted an inquiry/response to your reply.Jweaver28 (talk) 11:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

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October 16

Hi. May I ask, why did you remove Saint Longinus from the October 16 feast day? Please advise. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:05, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi Spadaro, could you explain to me which version of St. Longinus feast day did you add for October 16? Is it Roman Catholic version? Eastern Orthodox version? or Lutheran/Anglican version? Generally we use Roman Catholic (majority) for H&O, but I want to hear your explanation first so we can discuss. If you have a source, please tell me also. I will try to reply you ASAP.--Rochelimit (talk) 15:12, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello. I read in the Saint Longinus article that his feast day was October 16. (I believe that it was in the Info Box.) I noticed that he was not listed in the October 16 feasts, so I added him into the October 16 article. The next day, I noticed that you removed him from the October 16 article. After this, I then noticed that you also changed the Info Box of the Saint Longinus article to read "Feast Day of March 15" instead of "Feast Day of October 16". That is what happened on my end. So, what is the situation? Please advise. Thanks. In the original Saint Longinus article Info Box (before your edit), I believe that the October 16 date was in reference to his Roman Catholic feast day. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:38, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi Spadaro. Yes, after your addition, I checked the infobox in St. Longinus's main page, stating October 16 as his feast day. This is questionable because in the first creation of the St Longinus article, the feast day was March 15 instead. I can't trace at which date did the change occur, but I did a little research and conclude that October 16 is the Eastern Orthodox liturgics version for St. Longinus feast day. If you see in October 16's H&O - Christian feast day section, you'll see there's a link: October 16 (Eastern Orthodox liturgics). This is where St. Longinus of October 16 is located.

I just added St. Longinus Roman Catholic feast day in H&O section of March 15, I forgot to include it in my last edit a couple of hours ago.

So in conclusion, now in Saint Longinus infobox, March 15 is his Roman Catholic feast day, Oct 16 is his Eastern Orthodox version, and October 22 his Armenian Apostolic Church version. (BTW March 15 is also stated as St. Longinus' feast day in the section Saint Longinus#Present-day veneration, it is always there even before my infobox edit.)--Rochelimit (talk) 16:17, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Just so I am clear. You are saying that, originally (before your edit), the Saint Longinus article listed his Roman Catholic Feast Day as October 16; but that was an error; it should have read March 15. Is that the situation? And, at this point, all of the "Day of the Year" articles (March 15; October 16; etc.) are correctly edited in reporting the appropriate feasts? And the Info Box is now correct? Am I understanding correctly? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:48, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Yep all is correct now, Oct 16, Mar 15 and Longinus.--Rochelimit (talk) 16:55, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, great, thanks. Thanks for fixing all of this! Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:18, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Today's H&O addition

I put a note on my talk page, but since I went up a couple of notches from our earlier conversation, I'm also putting a note here in case you're interested but otherwise didn't notice.Jweaver28 (talk) 21:20, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I put another note on my talk page concerning this morning's H&O additions.Jweaver28 (talk) 11:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

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Another Anglican feast day/ H&O issue

I posted a reply for you on my talkback page.Jweaver28 (talk) 12:46, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

DYK for St. Joseph's Church, Semarang

Gatoclass (talk) 00:02, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

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Dutch colonial heritages

I noticed that you seem to care and loved the colonial heritage of Indonesia, i happened to know a website that will greatly help you with it:

http://indonesia-dutchcolonialheritage.nl/

This website covers a lot of Jakarta's colonial heritages and will give you detail of Batavia's development, it also include lots of other cities.

http://www.skyscrapercityx.com/showthread.php?t=1227949&page=23

Will provide some images of Dutch colonial heritages in the country.

Cheers Bungutebungute (talk) 11:47, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Hey you might wanted to add Hotel Pancoran Jaya and Panti Asuhan Vinsensius Putra in here:

https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Colonial_architecture_in_Jakarta — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.253.140.65 (talk) 10:13, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

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Old maps of Jakarta

Hi @Rochelimit:! I saw you working on a list of streets in Kota, Jakarta and I thought you might be interested in old maps from this site. The link is just one of the many maps (and other stuff) they have in their online collection, so feel free to look around. I'd suggest you search for "Batavia" and then fiddle around with the filter settings; there's a special filter for maps only. - HyperGaruda (talk) 13:13, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

It's a nice map. Thank you for pointing that out. Actually I have the 1667 map I purchased from Amsterdam Tropenmuseum. I don't have the more modern map though so this will help filling in some of the mystery.--Rochelimit (talk) 17:15, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

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A cup of tea for you!

Great article on the Java house! Keep up the great work. You should nominate it for a DYK if you haven't already. :) Calaka (talk) 11:18, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks Calaka. I've nominated it yesterday, it is still being reviewed. You can help reviewing also by checking the talk page of that article. Hopefully I can also nominate it for Good Article.--Rochelimit (talk) 11:45, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

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Wikipedia Asian Month is COMING!

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The Wikipedia Asian Month will begin in less than an hours, and once again, thank you for signing up! Let's help the world know more about Asia! Below are a few reminders for you:

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Enjoy the Wikipedia Asian Month :) --AddisWang (talk)

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DYK for Javanese traditional house

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:01, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Civility

Rochelimit, I thought you should know that the article associated with this nomination, which you reviewed, was found to have significant copyright violations of several of its sources. The "within policy" checks should always include those for copyvios, close paraphrasing, and plagiarism, as well as neutrality checks and making sure the article is adequately sourced. The DYK reviewing guide, as well as the rules and the more detailed explanation of the rules are good resources as to what is and isn't needed for a DYK nomination. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:01, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

• BlueMoonset, thank you for informing me and sorry for not looking it more thoroughly.--Rochelimit (talk) 15:16, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

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JSTOR

You should have received an email with a link to a Google form to complete - could you please either do so or email me if you did not receive it? Note that, because there are more applicants than available accounts, not responding could result in your slot being passed to a waiting editor. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:05, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

thank you for reminding me Nikkimaria, I overlooked the mail. I've respond to it with my wiki username and personal email.--Rochelimit (talk) 03:33, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

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Talkback

Hello, Rochelimit. You have new messages at Template:Did you know nominations/Tourism in Brunei.
Message added 14:45, 18 November 2015 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Human3015^TALK  14:45, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello

Hello, sir. It's hard to find Indonesian who contributes to WPEN. I found your profile in WikiProject Indonesia and find your contributions plentiful. Do you use Google Books or your own books for references? Curhat sedikit. I'm interested in Indonesian cuisine but so far I can't find good book for reference. The easiest books to find is about Indonesian history (the events and figures) so I mainly expand those kind of article. Salam kenal. MRFazry (talk) 08:21, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi MRFazry, nice to meet you. You can buy books in Periplus for references about Indonesian cuisine. FYI I used both Google Books, Amazon, access from JSTOR Journals or other Journals, PDFs, and my own book collection as reference, depending on the article :) .--Rochelimit (talk) 05:34, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I see. I hadn't thought that. I haven't visited Periplus. I think I should visit them instead of Gramedia. MRFazry (talk) 07:42, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Indies Empire style

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:02, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

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OUP

You should have received an email from me with a link to a registration form to complete - could you please either complete it or email me if you did not receive it? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:30, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder Nikkimaria, I was searching JSTOR the entire week, whereas I'm supposed to check Oxford instead. Did you do review for Oxford participants also? btw thanks for the reminder again.--Rochelimit (talk) 15:20, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Both JSTOR and Oxford. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:17, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

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DYK nomination of Balinese traditional house

Hello! Your submission of Balinese traditional house at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! BlueMoonset (talk) 16:03, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Further issues have been noted. Please stop by at your earliest convenience. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:42, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

As Nikkimaria noted on the nomination form, the copyvio/close paraphrase issue has still not been fixed, and the example given is an exceedingly clear case. Note that while Earwig's copyvio tool and the Duplication detector can check regular websites and some PDFs, they cannot check the Google books texts, so you cannot rely on these tools to find anything in such cases, even if it is obvious when checking the source directly. At some point—and that moment is fast approaching—if the issue has not been solved, the nomination will have to be closed as unsuccessful. I hope you take Nikkimaria's advice and make the thorough check that has been needed all along. Best of luck. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:27, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Rochelimit, I think that the latest comments by Nikkimaria from December 27 will mark the final attempt to clear up the close paraphrasing for DYK. Perhaps you didn't see them when she posted them a week ago; please try to address them as soon as you can, but be thorough. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:12, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the reminder BlueMoonset, I will check them now.--Rochelimit (talk) 11:21, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Rangkiang

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:01, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

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Dec. 1 thru 30 Ophiuchus

Hello - I saw you'd reverted at least one of the additions I made regarding "Persons born on this day are under the sign Ophiuchus." Not sure why you deleted - it had already been vetted by an admin and passed muster as far as relevance and non-frivolity, and I'm adding them in groups to all the days in this range. Do you have another concern under which these should be removed? Dkendr (talk) 20:50, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi Dkendr, Ophiuchus is not a holiday nor an observance, and therefore H&O section is not the proper section for it. In a way, you can understand as it is not proper to have all the signs of the zodiac placed in the H&O section, it is redundant and just not a proper place for it.--Rochelimit (talk) 11:54, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough and consensus seems to agree. Thanks for the reply. Dkendr (talk) 10:49, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

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DYK for Rumoh Aceh

— Coffee // have a cup // beans // 12:02, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

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St Jose Maria Rubio

Hello, why did you revert my change about the feast day of St Jose Maria Rubio (and remove him from May 4)? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 18:57, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello Richardson mcphillips. According to sources such as Catholic org saints and Saint Resource, the feast day is May 2. However, I just found out from a book that his feast day was May 4. It is best to put reference to avoid changes in your edit, because I'm still not sure which is the most notable feast date; and it also seems that the saint's observance is very minor, hence the variation.--Rochelimit (talk) 16:23, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

thanks. 134.153.3.99 (talk) 16:58, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

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Jakarta

I fail to see why we should have subdistricts of Jakarta unless they are notable for some bizarre reason JarrahTree 11:00, 9 October 2016 (UTC).

Subdistricts in Jakarta are as notable as Arrondisements in Paris. Subdistricts (kecamatan) as a subdivision may not be notable (for some people), but some Jakarta's Subdistricts started as affluent neighborhood with its own character. Tanah Abang, Koja, Kebayoran Baru offered its own distinct history, in itself they create characters in Jakarta. Ancol was a recreational neighborhood and now a notable Administrative Village (kelurahan); the name is historically notable even since the 17th-century. I don't know what is the reason behind your statement (reading a newly created article by me?), can you please elaborate so we can improve something?--Rochelimit (talk) 11:48, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

I see your reasoning for a select group in jakarta that have a log history - not all of them are sufficiently notable surely? - reason behind query is that there a low level set of stubs that will never becomes more than names of places in Indonesia - and was just trying to check the notability/significance of the jakarta items. If you can find WP:RS to substantiate WP:N for the places in Jakarta, that is fine, no problem and cheers JarrahTree 13:30, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

To be honest I'm still not sure what you are referring with "select group in jakarta that have a long history", the issue of WP:RS and why you are referring to me. Most of those articles were there before I expanded them, and my expansions normally include adding the subsection reference. Anyway I hope you realize that Jakarta Subdistricts are notable and not for a bizarre reason.--Rochelimit (talk) 14:26, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

My apology then, I can have a problem with my reading diffs/history too quickly, and thinking you had something to do with the earlier stages of the articles - ok - I then realised that you might be someone to start a chat about whether lower level subdistricts deserve attention or not in the larger project. The usage of the word 'bizarre' was inappropriate - your reply adequately explains the historical context of some of them, and that is appreciated - also the fact that you are adding refs is much appreciated as too few eds in the Indonesian project do just that. So thanks - apologies if my attempt at chatting about the broader issue had you confused. JarrahTree 14:34, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

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Asian 10,000 Challenge invite

Hi. The Wikipedia:WikiProject Asia/The 10,000 Challenge has recently started, based on the UK/Ireland Wikipedia:The 10,000 Challenge and Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa/The 10,000 Challenge. The idea is not to record every minor edit, but to create a momentum to motivate editors to produce good content improvements and creations and inspire people to work on more countries than they might otherwise work on. There's also the possibility of establishing smaller country or regional challenges for places like South East Asia, Japan/China or India etc, much like Wikipedia:The 1000 Challenge (Nordic). For this to really work we need diversity and exciting content and editors from a broad range of countries regularly contributing. At some stage we hope to run some contests to benefit Asian content, a destubathon perhaps, aimed at reducing the stub count would be a good place to start, based on the current Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa/The Africa Destubathon which has produced near 200 articles in just three days. If you would like to see this happening for Asia, and see potential in this attracting more interest and editors for the country/countries you work on please sign up and being contributing to the challenge! This is a way we can target every country of Asia, and steadily vastly improve the encyclopedia. We need numbers to make this work so consider signing up as a participant! Thank you. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 02:25, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Welcome aboard! A beautiful GA too! Thanks for that, great to see quality for Indonesia. I will try to do some more work on Indonesia later in the year but very busy with the the Africa Destubathon at the moment!♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:37, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Invitation from Wikipedia Asian Month 2016

Wikipedia Asian Month

Thanks for partipating Wikipedia Asian Month last year, and I hope you enjoy it. Last year, more than 7,000 articles contribute to Wikipedia in 43 languages in Wikipedia Asian Month, making us one of the largest event on Wikipedia. We will organize this event again in upcoming November, and would like to invite you join us again.

This year, we are lowering down the standards that you only need to create 4 (Four) articles to receive a postcard (new design), and articles only need to be more than 3,000 bytes and 300 words. We are also improving our postcard sending process, e.g. making the postcards right now, and collecting the address after the event ends without waiting other languges.

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Welcome to Wikipedia Asian Month!

Hi there! Wikipedia Asian Month is about to start. Here is some information about participating in the event:

1. Please submit your articles via this tool. Click 'log in' at the top-right and OAuth will take care the rest. You can also change the interface language at the top-right.
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3. Participants who achieve 4 accepted articles will receive a Wikipedia Asian Month postcard. You will receive another special postcard if you achieve 15 accepted articles. The Wikipedian with the highest number of accepted articles on the English Wikipedia will be honored as a "Wikipedia Asian Ambassador", and will receive a signed certificate and additional postcard.
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5. If you have any question, you can take a look at our Q&A or post on the WAM talk page.

Best Wishes, Addis Wang
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1 november page

Why did you delete all the countries mentioned in the 1 november article? It was very useful to find out which countries celebrate this. A list is always nice to see. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garnhami (talk • contribs) 20:47, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

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