Metalduck07

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Thanks for your input on Neemuch / Nimach

Thanks for checking with me about the etymology of your town. I plan look over the current & former versions carefully, & then I may get back to you if I have any further questions or suggestions on changing the article.

I can start with an answer to one of your questions, about using the Google street view image, by referring you to one of the items on the page WP:RSPSS (the list of what are and are not reliable sources according to the consensus of Wikipedia editors), WP:GOOGLEMAPS, which says "Inferring information solely from Street View pictures may be considered original research." So to say that because the town is named Neemuch and there is a statue in the town with the abbreviation NIMACH therefore the town must be named for the acronym, is to draw a conclusion by putting other facts together. Wikipedia considers that original research, which is forbidden according to WP:NOR.

This policy makes sense because logical-seeming conclusions like that, and folk-etymologies in particular are often wrong. Coincidences do in fact happen, and people mistakenly assume things are connected - often the more intelligent people, since they notice connections. Seeing a statue that says NIMACH & noticing that it resembles the name Neemuch takes at least some intelligence, and imagination. But that doesn't mean it's true- and in Wikipedia, we should state as facts only those things that can be verified by reliable sources.

An example of a 19th century folk-etymology involving British India (which I myself read when I was a kid, and believed) is the claim that the adjective "posh" is an abbreviation for "Port Outward, Starboard Home" because when people from the British Isles sailed to British India & back, the shaded side of the ship was more desirable in the hot latitudes. The Oxford English Dictionary entry for "posh" specifically says that etymology is false, & even cites a book published in 1971 that thoroughly debunks it.

However, even an unreliable source (a local newspaper article, or published speech, or even advertisement, even if by somebody who is not a reliable expert) still allows us to say in Wikipedia that people believe and say that Neemuch comes from NIMACH.

I'll suggest ways to do that in a moment, but I accidentally deleted some of what I wrote & had to rewrite it just now, & so I want to publish it before I accidentally delete more. UrielAcosta (talk) 17:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia's standards for saying that Neemuch is from NIMACH, or from neem trees, or from Meena, are much stricter than for saying that the local people say that it does, so I'll make some suggestions as to what sources it would take to meet each of those standards.

We're all volunteers here, so of course nobody has to do any work for Wikipedia they don't want to, but if you want to a good person to consult could be a local librarian. A librarian in Neemuch might find the most reliable sources for early local history (to establish, if possible, which of the etymologies is actually true) as well as any source, even one that is not particularly reliable for history or etymology, that mentions the claim, thus establishing that the belief in the etymology exists.

Since it's common for folk-etymologies to be published as fact, I strongly recommend only basing a claim of fact on a reliable dictionary or other expert lexicographical, etymological, or historical source, or else on an Indian government website (any level of government, whether the nation of India, the state of Madhya Pradesh, or the district or town of Neemuch).

Establishing that people believe that any or all of the etymologies are true is simpler. Even an offhand comment by somebody who is not a qualified expert (& might just be repeating something they've heard all their life & haven't bothered to fact-check) could be a source for the extended of the belief, as long as it's published somewhere. For example, it could be in a published speech (by a local political, businessperson, or other non-expert in the name's origin), or local newspaper column, or even a published advertisement. One source for each claim is sufficient, but if there are two separate sources that's even better. Sources don't have to be published on the internet, or be in English, which is a reason I think a local librarian could be helpful in finding local sources.

The following are things that editors are NOT required in to do citing sources on Wikipedia, but that I personally often do because I think they will be helpful to some readers, so I'll mention them. Again, these are things I do, and you can do, or not do, as you see fit.

My usual practice, when I am I using a book that is not on the internet as a source, is to quote the portion or portions or the text supporting the claim I am citing it as a source. I didn't always do it because it's not always easy (the information may be spread out across several pages) but I think it can be helpful to readers. Here's an example from a citation (currently footnote #2) that I recently added to the article Mentor (Odyssey):

• Gods and Mortals in Classical Mythology; Michael Grant and John Hazel, editors; Merriam-Webster, Springfield (Massachusetts), 1993; p. 279: "MENTOR An old Ithacan of noble family whom Odysseus appointed to bring up Telemachus... in his absence... Athena, on occasion, impersonated him."

Here's another example, that I cited in Bene Israel:

• Benjamin J. Israel, The Jews of India, Centre for Jewish and Inter-faith Studies, Jewish Welfare Association, New Delhi, 1982, p. 21: "At the opening of the eighteenth century the Bene Israel were almost wholly concentrated in a small coastal strip of about 1,000 square miles slightly to the south of Bombay."

When I cite a source in another language (whether the source is on the internet or not), I often translate the relevant text & include the translation (and the original text, if the source is not on the internet). This usually happens when I am using a source in English for an article in the Portuguese or Spanish Wikipedias. For example, in the Portuguese article pt:Bene Israel:

• Benjamin J. Israel, The Jews of India, Centre for Jewish and Inter-faith Studies, Jewish Welfare Association, New Delhi, 1982, p. 25: "Não se sabe qual era a língua materna dos Bene Israel quando eles vieram para a Índia. Mas durante séculos tem sido Marathi." ("What the mother tongue of the Bene Israel was when they came to India is unknown. But for centuries it has been Marathi")

UrielAcosta (talk) 19:41, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@UrielAcosta

Thank you for your help and guidance. I shall look for the sources mentioned as you directed. Metalduck07 (talk) 00:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)