Hums4r

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Zeyan Shafiq AfD

Hello Hums4r, just wanted to share my thoughts with you. Despite my "keep" vote on the AfD, I share MrsSnoozyTurtle's discomfort about these articles being used as a form of advertising, both for Zeyan Shafiq and for Stalwart eSports. This was the main reason I didn't approve the article from AfC myself. The Stalwart eSports Facebook page in a January 31 post described themselves as being "featured" on Wikipedia alongside their founder and CEO, and they say that this is a mark of legitimacy and authenticity. Wikipedia articles are supposed to reflect notability, not generate it. I worry that they are correct, and that we have overestimated (or incorrectly reflected) the notability value of the profiles in Indian publications, which in any event are not famed for the quality of their journalism.

I am beginning to think that the articles should focus on the events, the founding of Kashbook and Stalwart, rather than the person, Zeyan Shafiq or the company. I say this in part because despite the attention that KashBook and Stalwart have received, neither one is particularly special. KashBook is, in objective terms, a poor copy of Facebook. On Stalwart's part, there's no indication that it is a particularly high-achieving team; their earnings are tiny by esports standards. Both their claims to fame come from the circumstances in which they were created. KashBook, because it was during an internet ban in J&K, and Stalwart because India-Pakistan relations are famously frosty and their partnership with Freestyle eSports is a rare instance of cross-border people-to-people cooperation. Focusing on the founder and company erases this important feature, and may indeed give them some unwarranted advertising quotient at the expense of the reader's understanding.

I've had these concerns from the beginning, but I was intending to just let it be. It's now generated such a storm in a teacup, and evoked such ire in other Kashmiri editors that I think it deserves to be addressed. It'd be nice to know what you think, but you don't have to respond - just wanted to let you know where my head is at.

(tagging Fences and windows because I know you've dedicated a lot of effort to these articles too) Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 08:12, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

• Hi Kohlrabi Pickle, been so long since we talked, hope you’re safe and doing good.
  Indeed you are correct, I checked their facebook page right now and confirm that they have posted it, but it might be because people in india consider wikipedia as authenticity,I think it shouldn’t be an issue until and unless the article doesn’t sound promotional, i might be wrong but if it is meeting the GNG, it should be there, moreover i would like to address one main issue with Esports in india which i am working on, We have major esport teams in india like Orange Rock, Entity, Megastars who have earned a good amount via Esports but the point is they don’t have enough articles/references to reliable sources present on google, i am looking to somehow get more and more links to them. Also another point, After PUBG was banned in india Stalwart Esports made it to the news because they had started working in pakistan and for indian media houses anything related to pakistan is given wide coverage. That’s why It has very much reliable source coverage on google.
  In Stalwart Esports “Collaboration of indian and pakistan organisation” is more notable, also i agree to all points you’ve mentioned above, you’ve been a early editor to this article(Zeyan Shafiq) and you have researched on it as well, you can surely remove anything that sounds promotional and just keep the part that deserves to be on wikipedia. We shouldn’t be tolerating any kind of promotional activities, i am fighting against these kashmiri editors just because they’re trying to post promotional articles on wikipedia. I am strongly against it. And again thanks for discussing things with me. Much respect mate.Hums4r (Let's Talk) 09:13, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Hello Hums4r, hope you're well too. What I'm thinking is that we have misinterpreted what is notable. The point of note, (and, incidentally, the point of the DYK as well) was more that KashBook was founded during an internet ban by an enterprising Kashmiri, than that it was Zeyan Shafiq who did it. He is a secondary character in this story. If this is true, then the Zeyan Shafiq article should be merged with an article on KashBook or "Founding of KashBook". This would require rewriting it from a different angle, with some of the same content, but a bigger focus on the circumstances in which it was founded, the key players (I read that Zeyan Shafiq had a partner), what eventually led to its dissolution, etc.

For Stalwart, I'm quite torn. I see from your discussion here that other editors agree that Stalwart is notable. I think in that case that you should make clearer in the lead section that it is known for its partnership with Freestyle, lest it come across as a generic highly-ranked team. I can help with this.

Based on what I'm saying, therefore, I'm inclined to modify my vote on the AfD to "Merge with 'KashBook' or 'Founding of KashBook'". Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 02:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Kohlrabi Pickle well, i think it might not be correct because as per sources he’s notable for 2 events, Kashbook and Stalwart Esports. If you create founding of kashbook, how would you include Stalwart Esports there? Also if we go by this thing, i am afraid we may have to do a lot of work then, haha. Like rewriting many BLP articles who are based on single event or two, i think Zeyan Shafiq should have an standalone article and then Kashbook’s article can be created,(but I won’t do it, so if you’re willing I’ll shares my notes) because as said earlier he’s not notable for 1 event only, we can’t deny stalwart esports when they have significant coverage. Hums4r (Let's Talk) 06:20, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm still rather uncomfortable. Maybe this is because I loathe the idea of Wikipedia being used for advertising. In any event, I think the Zeyan Shafiq article gives undue weight to the more positive aspects of his life, and probably needs to be rewritten in a more balanced way. This should include, for example, his dispute with his KashBook co-founder, or the portion of the Ravi Agrawal book which describes him as enjoying the media attention. It should also make clear that his notability for KashBook is not continuing (no one uses it anymore) and that he is known for Stalwart Esports not because it is some high-performing team but because of their partnership with Freestyle. I'll leave my vote on the AfD as is, and probably place a maintenance tag for "undue weight" on the article. I have exams in a couple weeks so I'm tied up till then at least, but if I get some time after that, I'll edit it. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 07:34, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

I was thinking the same, A controversies section should be added where his dispute with kashbook co founder has to be mentioned, there are Few articles briefly written on it, Stalwart Esports as per to my research has 60% of the articles based on their Indian performance. And 40% of articles based on their pakistani collab. We can’t completely deny their notability, but yes as you’ve mentioned in the lead there, they are known for stalwart freestyle partnership, although i will add more to it but later after i read few more articles. Unfortunately you don’t have people who are interested in indian esports. Also best of luck brother, wishing you success for exams. See you Hums4r (Let's Talk) 07:45, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Would like to ask one thing more “ It should also make clear that his notability for KashBook is not continuing (no one uses it anymore)“ as far as i remember notability doesn’t look for the functionality, because if it does then there are plenty of BLP who have defunct startup’s/businesses, For eg:- Kavin Bharti Mittal is the CEO of Hike messenger, but since it’s defunct now we can’t say that he’s not notable anymore. I guess we can have a more brief discussion, but i do disagree to your POV of notability as for now. But I believe you would make me understand properly. Hums4r (Let's Talk) 07:49, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Is Stalwart notable for anything other than their partnership? All the other coverage looks routine to me. How good are they as an esports team?

To your second question: I was not suggesting that Shafiq is not notable anymore. I am suggesting that the line can be expressed more precsiely: "Shafiq is known for being the CEO of KashBook" vs "Shafiq is known for having founded KashBook during the internet ban in J&K". The first is not wrong, exactly, but I think the second is more precise. I would say the same for Kavin Bharti Mittal's article: it should read "Kevin Bharti Mittal is an internet entrepreneur, known for having founded Hike Messenger, a now-defunct platform that was once the world's sixth-largest mobile messaging application". I have edited that article to reflect this. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 09:30, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Kohlrabi Pickle, First Question:- stalwart as an esports team has more achievements in india like :- Ending up #3 in PMCO, Ending Up #3 In FFIC, these both tourneys are the highest india level tourneys, i am not mentioning “PMPL” which is an international tourney because they played it with “Freestyle”, I’m just telling what achievements they’ve done on their own as per the sources available. But my point was that their all these achievements got 60% coverage while as their single partnership in pakistan got 40% coverage because you very well know indian media houses, haha.

To 2nd question:- you’re absolutely correct, the second line would be more precise and correct because he’s not the CEO of kashbook anymore, we can only use that he founded kashbook, but as per the stalwart website he is the CEO of stalwart esports, what do we mention in this case? Hums4r (Let's Talk) 09:54, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

I see. I read about their earnings, in the thousands of dollars, whereas a Google search reveals that esports earnings can go into the tens of millions. For my education, if they are doing so well, why are their earnings so low? The rankings shouldn't be an example of a situation where we celebrate someone for coming #3 when only 3 people are competing.

To the second point - it is also more precise because he is known not specifically for being CEO of KashBook, but for founding it during the internet ban. This was the point in the DYK.

His biography should be written with the aim of giving a clear picture of his life to the reader. The lead section, for example, currently makes him seem like a full-time professional app developer, software engineer or internet entrepreneur, like Kavin Mittal. In reality, he is just a teenager, a full-time student, who runs a few companies on the side. This is rare, but not unique - many people his age do it. KashBook gained media attention because it was a creative solution to the internet ban, not because it was a revolutionary piece of software or because it was exceedingly popular (it was only in the top 22 apps in the valley). Stalwart received attention because he built a rare partnership with a Pakistani esports team. This is his life as I understand it. If it is an accurate understanding, this is the overall impression that a reader of his article should come away with.

Writing "CEO of Stalwart Esports" does very little to further the reader's understanding of his life or what he does. It's not the same as being the CEO of a Fortune 500 company, where the term "CEO" comes with the understanding that the subject presides over a big corporate structure, with accountability to many stakeholders (customers, board, employees, creditors, etc). (It does, however, come with a "feel good" factor. Who wouldn't like the title "CEO"?) Instead, one could use "Shafiq founded and runs Stalwart Esports, a pan-Indian eSports team. In 2020, he brokered a partnership with a Pakistani eSports team, Freestyle eSports, which was described in media reports as an "unprecedented", and a rare show of Indian-Pakistani collaboration." This is objective, without fluff. Had the page been written this way, I doubt that MrsSnoozyTurtle would have nominated it for AfD. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 10:42, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

• Kohlrabi Pickle, It is mentioned as you said in the lead of Zeyan Shafiq "and started Stalwart Esports in 2020 to promote India in competitive esports." But this one "In 2020, he brokered a partnership with a Pakistani eSports team, Freestyle eSports, which was described in media reports as an "unprecedented", and a rare show of Indian-Pakistani collaboration." This Line Sounds bit promotional to me, i mean it sounds like as if it was a war he won.

@Kohlrabi, have a look now. I’ve added that “known for it’s collaboration with Freestyle and the reason “Due to pubg ban”. Would give the readers an idea and looks more precise, let me know what you think. Hums4r (Let's Talk) 10:13, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, just saw this. That looks alright for the most part, but I've made a slight amendment. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 10:57, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Kohlrabi Pickle Looks very perfect now, " and became known for its collaboration with Pakistani eSports organisation Freestyle eSports after PUBG Mobile was banned in India" This line looks very precise, and the Infobox corrections are okay as well, but have you read the references? Most of the references have mentioned that " It was founded by Zeyan Shafiq in January 2020 to promote india in competitive esports" The Founder/ owner part doesn't fit in the Infobox but i guess it should be present in the Lead. I'm saying this after having a look at other esport article's Team SoloMid. Since in the maximum article's there is founder mentioned in the lead.I'll add it back and we can have a discussion on this and edit accordingly. Hums4r (Let's Talk) 11:17, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Hums4r, I am increasingly uncomfortable with this, and the Zeyan Shafiq article. If you Google "Stalwart Esports", the knowledge panel on the right hand side reads "CEO: Zeyan Shafiq, Founder: Zeyan Shafiq, Owner: Zeyan Shafiq". It looks absurd, like a Zeyan Shafiq billboard. This is why I removed two of the categories from the infobox. My decision to delete Zeyan's name from the lead section was partly intended as a litmus test: it makes very little difference to the reader, but a big difference to the promotional value Zeyan can get from it, so I am troubled by your insistence at keeping it in. Despite your earnest words, I get the sense from your actions that you are, consciously or unconsciously, committed to portraying him positively.

A small number of articles on Wikipedia are black holes, consuming 80% of one's energy, and generating 20% of the output. I try to stay away from those articles unless the effort is worth it. Zeyan Shafiq and Stalwart Esports are examples of those articles, and the effort is not worth it. I see that Fences & windows has decided not to participate in this discussion; a smart decision. I'm going to take a leaf out of their book. I am striking my AfD vote. I will register my discomfort there, and move on. I think you are likely to see continued opposition to both these articles. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 13:13, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

My Last Reply to this. Kohlrabi Pickle You got me wrong, I Didn't change the infobox section even i told you that it is correct that you removed it but you should atleast have a look at other esport article's Check Team SoloMid, This is the only reason i followed it. I am the one who wrote controversies section in the Stalwart Esports article and once The AfD will be over if the article is kept i will add Controversy section to Zeyan Shafiq article as well. I am just trying to portray what other wikipedia article's are portraying,I've never been favouring or portraying someone in a good or bad way, all i ever want is to make article's that i work on very perfect according to wikipedia standards. I Have always taken your advices and respected them. But if other article's are following some certain writing style why would this one be excluded, this is what i am trying to understand. The line that you suggested "In 2020, he brokered a partnership with a Pakistani eSports team, Freestyle eSports, which was described in media reports as an "unprecedented", and a rare show of Indian-Pakistani collaboration." would've portrayed him in a good image as well, if i was to portray him/ stalwart in a good image i would've used this line but as said above this line sounded very promotional to me. I would apologise for discomforting you but i always want to learn things and this is confusing me, Even though i haven't edited (Zeyan Shafiq) from a long time i'm very sad to hear these allegations bro, i decided to skip all these article's related to him just because of this reason and now it's all coming back to me, you're very free to make any changes bro. i'm tired of this as well. again best wishes for exam, Take Care. Hums4r (Let's Talk) 13:35, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Blocked for sockpuppetry

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Sockpuppet investigation

An editor has opened an investigation into sockpuppetry by you. Sockpuppetry is the use of more than one Wikipedia account in a manner that contravenes community policy. The investigation is being held at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Hums4r, where the editor who opened the investigation has presented their evidence. Please make sure you make yourself familiar with the guide to responding to investigations, and then feel free to offer your own evidence or to submit comments that you wish to be considered by the Wikipedia administrator who decides the result of the investigation. If you have been using multiple accounts (in a manner contrary to Wikipedia policy), please go to the investigation page and verify that now. Leniency is usually shown to those who promise not to do so again, or who did so unwittingly, but the abuse of multiple accounts is taken very seriously by the Wikipedia community.

Chinar(Message) 10:33, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:KashBook

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Concern regarding Draft:Noble Esports

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Nomination of Stalwart Esports for deletion

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Hatchens (talk) 15:15, 12 September 2021 (UTC)