Hayneman

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Hello, Hayneman, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions.

I noticed that one of the first articles you edited was Harry Pitch, which appears to be dealing with a topic with which you may have a conflict of interest. In other words, you may find it difficult to write about that topic in a neutral and objective way, because you are, work for, or represent, the subject of that article. Your recent contributions may have already been undone for this very reason.

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{Help me}} before the question. Again, welcome! Theroadislong (talk) 12:54, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Harry Pitch

There is no conflict of interest in my new revised Wikipedia entry because the late Harry Pitch was my father. I do not know who submitted the original entry but it contains errors of fact and misses large sections of his career which are noteworthy and significant for anyone who is interested. My new entry will provide far more information and insight into my father's legacy. Although I believe my father bought the rights to his photo I will remove it if necessary. Hayneman (talk) 13:09, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

There is a VERY clear conflict of interest if he is your father, please use the template {{edit request}} on the article talk page to suggest changes and do not edit the article directly. Theroadislong (talk) 13:12, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

So how do I correct the current inaccuracies and expand the legitimate, provable details of my father's long and successful career without reporting the facts as they exist? Hayneman (talk) 14:05, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

By using the template {{edit request}} on the article talk page, being sure to include reliable independent sources to back up the details. Theroadislong (talk) 14:08, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Clearly you should not edit the article yourself - and you should most certainly not lift copyrighted material from elsewhere, which I suspect you may have done in your earlier edits. I'd be happy to make changes to the current text, if you first explain, on the article talk page, what the errors are - and bearing in mind that the article needs to be written using a neutral, descriptive, encyclopedic tone, rather than praising a person's accomplishments. Thanks. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:26, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

The information in all the newspaper obituaries of my father's death were supplied by me from my own direct knowledge of his career. Indeed, the Independent's published version credits me as author at the end. All that information was gathered during 18 hours of conversations on dvd that my sister and I had with my father two years before his death. So all the facts supplied are from an unimpeachable source. I take your point about sticking more to bare facts without elaboration and would be happy to rewrite my entry with that in mind. Hayneman (talk) 15:45, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm afraid that rather misses the point. Wikipedia is a compilation of information from material that has already been published in reliable sources. If the information has not been published anywhere, it should not be on Wikipedia. Verifiability is a fundamental policy - in summary, "Readers must be able to check that any of the information within Wikipedia articles is not just made up. This means all material must be attributable to reliable, published sources." So, I go back to the point that, if you can identify specific errors that need to be corrected, we will do our best to correct them. But it should not be you making the edits, as that would be a clear breach of our conflict of interest guidelines. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:53, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm still puzzled by why you have taken it upon yourself to be the arbiter of information about which you clearly know very little. What is the source of your information other than from the Harmonica League? For example my father was not born in Sculcoates Yorkshire. He did not play on the soundtrack of 'Bridge on the River Kwai'. He did not advise John Lennon before 'Love me do'. He made more than 3 albums and there are many more errors in your submission. But what's most concerning and distressing to his 96-year-old widow is that your version of her beloved husband's life story omits so many of the crucial details of what made him the well-loved and successful figure that he was. As I said before, I'm happy to rewrite his history while concentrating purely on the facts. What is your problem with that? Hayneman (talk) 18:50, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are most definitely NOT a reliable source as far as Wikipedia is concerned, all content must be attributable to reliable, published sources. Theroadislong (talk) 19:31, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Again, the point is that the text is not my text, except insofar as I have re-edited existing previously published material from independent, reliable sources. (And of course it is the case that, until December, your father had no Wikipedia article at all. I don't expect thanks, but it would be good to have some recognition that I was sufficiently interested in your father's life to put one together.) Some of those details may be wrong, and you've now pointed out a few instances where they may be wrong. The sources for my information are listed at the foot of the article, and include the obituaries published in The Guardian and The Independent. As I said before, if there are errors they can be corrected - but to do that you should identify those errors on the article talk page, as you have been asked to do, so that I and perhaps others can check where the information came from, and correct it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC) PS: In this filmed interview, Harry Pitch refers both to Bridge on the River Kwai, and to advising Lennon on harmonica technique. So, it's by no means clear to me what is "wrong" about those mentions in the text. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:54, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I continue to struggle with your apparent desire to claim the subject of my father's career as your own. You say that I do not have ownership of 'the facts' and that you have used independent sources. But the obituaries that appeared in the Guardian, Telegraph, Independent and others were all instigated by me (see the credit at the end of):

Harry Pitch: Harmonica virtuoso who recorded the theme to Last of the Summer Wine | The Independent | The Independent. I therefore know that the information in these articles is correct so where have you obtained the erronious stuff in your submission? Hayneman (talk) 09:51, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

By this stage of his life his health and memory were deteriorating. He did not play on the soundtrack of 'The Bridge on the River Kwai'. If you listen to Malcolm Arnold's score, the scene where the prisoners march into the camp is accompanied by whistling that is then joined by the orchestra with no harmonica. Furthermore, I never heard him tell the John Lennon story, during my lifetime and even in the 18 hours of our interviews with him. I understand the need for accuracy in Wikipedia but I think your sparse, ill-informed entry does him a great disservice and causes distress to his widow and the rest of the family too. Hayneman (talk) 10:04, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

You need to discuss this on the article talk page Talk:Harry Pitch, you have yet to provide any sources for what you want changed, well sourced content will not be removed, but further content can be added with suitable independent sources. Theroadislong (talk) 10:21, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that the original Wikipedia article is based on the original obituaries printed in the Telegraph, Times, Guardian and Independent: 'Harry Pitch: Harmonica virtuoso who recorded the theme to Last of the Summer Wine | The Independent | The Independent'. I was the source of that information (see credit at end of Independent one) based on my personal and professional (I was also a musician) knowledge of my father's career plus 18 hours of recorded family interviews with him. So, despite other inaccuracies from such sources as the Harmonica League website, I am the only truly reliable source. What's currently distressing to my 96-year-old mother is that the current Wiki article is poorly written and undervalues my father's immense contribution to the music industry. Hayneman (talk) 10:58, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Attacking other editors work is not productive as in "Wiki article is poorly written" the article is NOT poorly written it seems to be a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, and again you are NOT "the only truly reliable source" you are not a reliable source at all unless what you say has been independently published, please use the article talk page as previously requested. Theroadislong (talk) 11:37, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I have absolutely no "desire to claim the subject of [his] career as [my] own". The problem is that what you are saying directly contradicts, in several respects, the information that was published in obituaries in reliable sources, and indeed contradicts what Mr Pitch himself said in the filmed interview. As editors, we have no right to try to override those statements, and in any case I'm afraid that we have no way of knowing whether or not what you say is, in fact, correct. Again, if you think that the Wikipedia article misrepresents what has been published elsewhere, please make your case on the article talk page. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:55, 4 January 2023 (UTC) PS: Here is a direct quote from the Guardian obituary, which you say that you helped write:

In 1962, Harry was in the canteen at EMI’s Abbey Road studios when he was approached for advice by the young John Lennon, who was preparing to record his own harmonica solo on the Beatles’ first single, Love Me Do. “It was soon after the Frank Ifield record had come out,” Pitch recalled. “He wanted to know how I achieved a particular effect. I showed him and he got it.”.... Pitch had been hired in 1957 to provide the mouth-organ music of Colonel Bogey, which was mimed by an actor in a scene in David Lean’s The Bridge on the River Kwai (1957)...

PPS: I've now had a chance to re-read the Independent obituary, which indeed does not refer to the Lennon incident, or to Bridge on the River Kwai. There is more detail in that obituary which I would be happy to include. But the problem remains that other obituaries do refer to Lennon, and to the film, and without a clearly justified explanation on the article talk page of why they are are wrong, we as editors have no right to exclude them from the article. I'm sorry, but we can't simply accept your word that only one obituary gives the true story, and as I said earlier in this discussion, the tone of an obituary is not the same tone as should be used in a neutral, balanced, encyclopedia article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:56, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm still at a loss why you refuse to accept that the thne vast majority of information in all the original press obituaries was PROVIDED BY ME, thus making it a reliable quotable source for others. Regarding whatever is said about 'The Bridge on the River Kwai' just watch the movie and you'll seee that there is no harmonica on the soundtrack. In fact, Harry played on a 45 rpm cover whistled version of 'Colonel Bogey' by either Mitch Miller or Cliff Adams. So that again proves that much of the so-called authentic factual information that you quote is wrong. I accept that the tone of a printed obituary is not the same as a more neutral one required in Wikipedia. That's why I said I'd be willing to rewrite my contribution with that in mind. So how are we going to resolve this issue? We both want the article to be correct and our family also want it to be a more detailed and comprehensive record of his remarkable career. Hayneman (talk) 14:26, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Please explain, on the article talk page, exactly which words in the article are incorrect - with a citation to the correct information in a reliable published source. We are happy to use the press obituaries. What we cannot do is use your personal claims that the information in those obituaries is wrong. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:27, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

PS: It's also worth saying that some of the wording suggestions made by Hayneman could be accommodated. Some cannot - where they conflict with reliably sourced, published information - and some are simply poor and unnecessary wording. Clearly, the wording of the verbatim quote should not be changed. Compromise is always possible, but it's not easy to achieve that when one side seems to misunderstand editing processes, and ignore the conflict of interest issues (among others). Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:17, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

January 2023

Please stop. If you continue to add unsourced or poorly sourced content, as you did at Harry Pitch, you may be blocked from editing. Theroadislong (talk) 20:54, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Please tell me specifically what the so-called unidentified sources are. If you threaten me in such a way, I will equally challenge the inaccurate postings by others that I'm simply trying to correct. Hayneman (talk) 21:50, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

As repeatedly requested you need to use the article talk page to request edits, if you continue with your disruptive edits, you will be blocked. Theroadislong (talk) 21:53, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I really think that Hayneman needs to acquire a clearer understanding of how Wikipedia works (I wonder how much of the Welcome guide they have read and understood), and how changes to articles should be achieved. In particular, the "Plain and simple conflict of interest guide" may be useful, with statements such as:

Readers should not be able to tell whether the writer of an article likes or hates a product or a subject. Writers must not only write positive content neutrally but write for the enemy including negative content and criticism in a neutral fashion. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources. These are sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, like newspapers, academic journals, books, and television and radio network broadcasts. Even if something is true our standards require that it be published in a reliable source before it can be included.

Articles about family members should not be edited by anyone with a clear and obvious conflict of interest. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:38, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello, I'm Theroadislong. I noticed that you made a comment on the page Talk:Harry Pitch that didn't seem very civil, so it may have been removed. Wikipedia is built on collaboration, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Theroadislong (talk) 22:36, 10 January 2023 (UTC)